TRIALMIN REVIEW: ForcefulCJS

[lzimann]

!

[Gun Hog]

He seemed a fair admin to me.

[MrAlphonzo]

He a goo boy that explains why shit is bad instead of going "Hey don't do that". He dindu nuffin

[smittn]

+ Ain't afraid to call others out on their shit
+ Through
- Kinda a cunt/sperglord

[DrWoofington]

A good admin!

[TechnoAlchemist]

Bad

[Armhulen]

Great Admin, great inpiration.

[NikNakFlak]

Bad

[Cheimon]

He's been helpful and reasonable when I've had to interact with him. As good as most admins, and quite a bit more transparent.

[Lemtoad]

Seems like a pretty good admin to me.

[peoplearestrange]

Gonna be honest, didn't like there attitude on the forums, however there IC character was always interesting. Then to see them as an admin, wholey impressed. Coming from many years on the player side, they both understand how to explain and be tactful, and also when to check up on people from there inside knowledge. I feel like we've got an ex-criminal on the police force here.

[Oldman Robustin]

I'll use this opportunity to air my grievances at whole reason we have a 2nd review thread in the first place:

1) See memo from Kor saying "Don't spawn megafauna it will mess up my stat tracking that I'm using for balancing them"

2) Looking around in spawn menu, notice "Lesser" Ash Drakes exist. Are those megafauna too?

3) Joan/Changelingrain, a maintainer (someone we trust to merge PR's/control our code) told me that it wouldn't mess anything up since Lesser Drakes were already player-controlled-only and thus wouldn't be included in the stat-tracking.

4) Use lesser ash drakes for events for about a month, 0 complaints

5) One day Kor finally finds out I had been using them. I explained why, due to 1-4, I thought the memo didn't cover them

6) Kor disagrees, thinks it should be "obvious" that I was wrong (again, despite a code maintainer basically convincing me otherwise)

7) I agree not to spawn them anymore and left it at that, log on later to find that Kor and Shadowlight demoted me to trial. No explanation given.

8) As I'm fiddling in the ban logs looking to edit a ban a few days later, I see Shadowlight's name at the top: "Banned for 2 days for summoning an Ash Drake literally a few hours after we punished Oldman for it. Got to have some semblance of consistency".

Overall it felt like a really silly and wholly unnecessary process. I didn't ignore his memo, I didn't summon anything to spite Kor, flaunt headmin authority, piss people off, etc., it was an innocent effort to make the game more fun for people, especially since Extended was triggering in like 10% of rounds during this time and there was an expectation that admins would run silly events. Still, title memes aside, my style has stayed consistent and I'm one of the only admins who runs events now. Some admins frown on this but I've received widely positive feedback for it, especially since I either give the crew a choice (How many rods do you want sent, how insane do you want the shuttle to be, etc.) or I ask for feedback after (Poll with a simple up-down vote on whether the event was a positive contribution to the round), and outside of a couple highly vocal memesters, people appreciate the effort I take in making rounds special.

[Bolien]

I like him. Super knowledgeable and helpful.
Good events.
Is fair and respectful in his ahelps.

+1

[cocothegogo]

was trying to teach a new player how to play the game, was flashed and turned into rev so i couldnt teach the new guy how to play anymore so i ahelped explaining the situation asked him if he could respawn me in as another player so i could continue teaching him but said no because "bans are supposed to be a pleasant experience" and "rev rounds are not good to teach new players how to play" asked him to do it himself then, never responded(kinda shitty tbh), but understandable seeing as im banned from team antags but still i didnt want to play as antag that round anyway

other than that hes a bit cuntish over ahelps but he does alright events i guess but thats just like, my opinion man

[InsaneHyena]

Dindu nuffin, did not deserve a demotion, promote again.

[Oldman Robustin]

It was a tough spot to be in Coco, you got ghosted because you were banned from rev. Its a punishment and not one that should be bypassed lightly. My only choice was to kick out the person controlling your character or spawn you as someone else (who could also get rev'd). I figured it was just simpler to have you wait 30-60 minutes before the next round. Alternatively I could have sent to Thunderdome with your pal if you had asked and if they were cool being taken out of the round.

Also I was never told who your buddy is and asking me to "teach them how to play" is a little too open ended. If they had any specific questions they could have ahelped it.

[tedward1337]

Needs to summarize things
Overall 7/10

[Shadowlight213]

Bad

Consistently goes on rants in adminbus and asay, constantly arguing until his opponent gets tired and just gives up. Im actually wonderjng if hes a cleverly hidden tornadium alt now. Literally claimed that me adding leaderboards and medals was a conspiracy to deadmin him.
Freaks out when he doesn't get his way.
Threatened to basically try to banbait if the hos policy issue wasn't decided in his favor.

Abither good example of this was in his shuttle extender pr where he kept increasing the amount that cult could delay the shuttle. When the second buff pr was closed and the reasoning explained, he got upset that he wasn't given free reign because "his vision for cult was better"

Players seem to like him mainly because he doesn't seem to show this side when interacting with them.

[iamgoofball]

Literally claimed that me adding leaderboards and medals was a conspiracy to deadmin him.

logs or bust

[Shadowlight213]

Literally claimed that me adding leaderboards and medals was a conspiracy to deadmin him.

logs or bust

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19382

[Saegrimr]

Literally claimed that me adding leaderboards and medals was a conspiracy to deadmin him.

logs or bust

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19382

t o p k e k

This whole fucking captain/hos thing recently is just extremely tiring since I can't even just mark the forums as read to not bother reading it, its like 500 lines of adminbus too.

[ChangelingRain]

Having access to admin stuff for a while I can say that robustin really does just rant until his opponent gives the fuck up and very few admins really want to deal with him.
It's certainly an... effective strategy, if not really a point in his favor.

[Aloraydrel]

Bad

[Sidon]

He seemed fine to me, nothing special. A lot better than a few admins who are still admins at least. Also makes people who can't read fast salty, but that's unrealted to admin stuff.

[iamgoofball]

Literally claimed that me adding leaderboards and medals was a conspiracy to deadmin him.

logs or bust

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/19382

do you have no sense of humor

[Oldman Robustin]

Yea I dunno what memes are afoot here Goof.

Shadow acted in IRC like he understood I was making a joke, I mean I immediately follow it with "but seriously..." which tips off 99% of readers that what was previously typed was not intended to be taken at face value.

But yet here we are pretending that I actually think leaderboards are an admin conspiracy. Wew.

[oranges]

You've really triggered shadow they've been passively agressively badmouthing you ever since.

[Oldman Robustin]

You've really triggered shadow they've been passively agressively badmouthing you ever since.

I triggered them the moment I got trial'd. I recall expressing skepticism when I saw admins playing while retaining admin status, he seemed vehement that I was wrong, only a powergamer like me would ever let admin-given information influence my round, blah blah (later that day he would play Gang Boss as admin until he finally relented in asay, it was just a prank guys! really!). Ever since then he takes every shot he can get at me. I joked in asay about spawning a devil for the sole purpose of demonstrating how quickly they ruin rounds. He contacts me the following round and interrogates me for 10 minutes, demanding I prove that (despite the fact I had never created a devil) I wasn't being serious.

Then came the whole megafauna bit. Votes to demote me for using lesser ash drakes and then 3 hours later spawns an Ash Drake (not even a lesser). Then a couple nights ago I'm talking in asay with Shaps about a previous round, and because he disagrees with what I'm saying, after the next round starts he blows of all my limbs and tongue off my miner and never restored them.

So yea, memes ahoy.

[J_Madison]

Awful events during tenure as admin. Several reports of bias from other players including me. Responses to situations are completely different from the majority of admins.

Stop letting your playstyle affect your admin decisions.

You are meant to be neutral. Not biased against players that are opposites of your playstyle.

[Oldman Robustin]

Bias?

Aside from Bryce Pax getting ahelped/ahelping every round, I don't think I've interacted with anyone I even "know" for months in the context of handling an ahelp complaint. It's really hard for me to exercise bias.

My events are widely liked, I've polled several of the more controversial ones in the following round and only one has ever had more disapproval than approval. Most of my recent events are basically Centcom proposing something and the heads decide and confirm via the Comms Console if they want to participate. I played for a very, very long time before adminning (and I still play frequently), I understand better than most the tension between button-pressing and "pure" rounds. The first question I ask is "How would I feel about this event if I were still a player aboard the station?" I also appreciate that well-run events can enhance rounds, give people more of a reason to choose /tg/station, keep up healthy population numbers, etc. We held a player poll a few months ago and the "more buttons" vote outnumbered the "less buttons" vote by 4:1.

As for playstyle preferences? One of my first big bans was against someone who was hauling around bombs in order to blow up some antags.

One of my most recent bans was against someone who killed and spaced another person for touching one of their bombs (it was appealed).

I'm always willing to write walls of text about my positions on our policy and I view every ahelp objectively from those policy positions. I'm very transparent about exactly why I am banning someone, so that either they understand the underlying issues or if they disagree and appeal, then at least we can have a coherent conversation about the ban.

So unless you actually want to bring up something specific Jmad, all I'm hearing are memes. "I hear reports..." without actually naming a report is like Shitposting 101.

[Docprofsmith]

Why was Robustin even candidates? He's historically been an awful player constantly toeing the line.

Do not make the mistake of promoting them again.

[onleavedontatme]

I think Oldman is pretty symbolic of the big rift in our community between the people who want more depth, slower/longer rounds, more "roleplay," etc, and the people who very much enjoy the team death match, half hour rounds, chaotic events and so on. He's definitley falls into the latter category, taking the team modes (cult, rev, gang, whatever) very seriously to the point where he pms people over being bad at the round (or otherwise breaks down why they were playing suboptimally in OOC or deadchat for ~10 minutes), but gets pretty bored and impatient in traitor rounds. I usually see him suicide/running an event if he's not antag or in a team mode. I don't think I've ever seen him do anything vaguely "roleplay" related in the ~three years he's been playing here either.

I also think it's fair to say that the people who enjoy the former type of gameplay (slow) have gravitated more towards being admins/coders, hanging around the forums a lot, where as a lot of the newer sybil players definitely more enjoy his style.

So we are left with the same choice we keep running into over the years, of whether we want to try to cater to the "roleplay" crowd (I'm not sure they'd come back anyway, and it might just leave our current players bored) or continue our slide towards hippie/nox levels of "roleplay" (which would probably make many of our current players happy, but continue to alienate the old guard, coders, etc).

So I think he's pretty fair/consistent for his style of adminning (though sometimes wierdly harsh on players, when his own IC style is often kinda questionable, never mind comparing to killing people with buttons for fun) but it's a pretty controversial style, at least among the people who engage in the meta game surrounding ss13 (code/forums/irc). I do think he genuinely cares about the game, even when he's coming off as abrasive.

PS: I woulda banned shadowlight harder but the only ban you can give other headmins is one they agree to

PPS: Existential questions about the direction of the server aside you piss off a lot of the coders/admins and having these giant blowups in IRC is getting tiring.

[J_Madison]

My events are widely liked, I've polled several of the more controversial ones in the following round and only one has ever had more disapproval than approval. Most of my recent events are basically Centcom proposing something and the heads decide and confirm via the Comms Console if they want to participate. I played for a very, very long time before adminning (and I still play frequently), I understand better than most the tension between button-pressing and "pure" rounds. The first question I ask is "How would I feel about this event if I were still a player aboard the station?" I also appreciate that well-run events can enhance rounds, give people more of a reason to choose /tg/station, keep up healthy population numbers, etc. We held a player poll a few months ago and the "more buttons" vote outnumbered the "less buttons" vote by 4:1.

As for playstyle preferences? One of my first big bans was against someone who was hauling around bombs in order to blow up some antags.

One of my most recent bans was against someone who killed and spaced another person for touching one of their bombs (it was appealed).

I'm always willing to write walls of text about my positions on our policy and I view every ahelp objectively from those policy positions. I'm very transparent about exactly why I am banning someone, so that either they understand the underlying issues or if they disagree and appeal, then at least we can have a coherent conversation about the ban.

So unless you actually want to bring up something specific Jmad, all I'm hearing are memes. "I hear reports..." without actually naming a report is like Shitposting 101.

1. Citation needed. I'm real tempted to open up a complaint now there's a report that you purposely start events if you're not antag. That's super shitty for those that got their roll. Not to mention of course buttons will be skewed when only a minority of players get roundstart antag, not to mention mass suicides, and deadchat complaining. Your poll results are simply not reflective of the community.

2. Your playstyle involves punishing players that actively stomp out shitty behaviour. You seem to have this belief that everything must be escalated when it's clearly reasonable to kill someone instead of petty escalation. It's clear of this when you punish players for not escalating. You breathed down my neck because I cremated an antagonist.
You seem to spite players that play differently, that try to end the problem quickly before it escalates. And you seem to deliberately try to cause trouble for others as seen in your policy discussion thread.
Your events are also awful and you intervene if it doesn't go your way. As seen on the monkey round which was admittedly awful, but you proceeded to spawn monkeys with deagles and there were witnesses to deagles being spawned, monkeys being healed, and you purposely spawning more human/monkeys.

Let the power go to his head. Now he ruins rounds just to spitefully deny people of greentext because one of his friends is too stupid to dodge a mulebot. Acts like a total asshole afterwards, and if you complain, he'll spawn you as a simple animal with an insulting name. I hope his entire family dies.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 22#p169502

Awful judgement on two occasions.
First, ragged me for 10 minutes over cremating someone with validhunting/obviously antag equipment after they were killed by an antag, AND after I was given permission by security to cremate them. Tells me that cremating people as a chaplain IS NOT MY JOB.
Your playstyle should not interfere or skew your judgement as an admin. Just because you think it's okay to create stunprod, get spray bottles, and validhunt doesn't mean it is. And certainly do not rag me because I punished them for doing so.

Second;
Absolutely awful events during a meme round. Spawned monkeys with deagles after monkey round which was fairly won by the crew, then proceeded to adminspawn monkeys deagles, revives and other equipment ON THE SPOT when they were losing later in the round.

Please stop interfering with the rounds when deadchat wants you to. If you want to interfere please let players know before the round.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 22#p173144

Purposely causing trouble in a round when you had no real reason to except to cause trouble.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 98#p199327

3. You shouldn't be banning people without a reason beyond reasonable doubt; your bans should be clear and unappealable. Having a ban that's appealable shows the lack of integrity on your part.

4. I'm going to make an opinion here that you'd be extremely upset if your shitty behaviour in game ended you with a straight up tase, cuff, kill. You like to build up that escalation so you can cause chaos and make the round be about you. So when you see someone like me kill a guy for being a shit, and when you see me cremate someone instead of letting them loose, you get upset because you want to see things build up. You don't understand that people hate playing with shitters, and they will do whatever it takes to prevent shitters from esclating in the round.

So because you wouldn't like it to yourself, you try to prevent others from doing it.

It takes five minutes to ruin a good reputation. And you've burnt bridges.

[lollerderby]

Ok.

[smittn]

So earlier I gave my pros and cons but overall I'd like him to be full admin again

Great wall of text

As long as he's not j-mad tier of tl;dr walltext like this garbage I don't see anything wrong with him arguing his point, just bitch at him to tl;dr it

[Falamazeer]

I like robustin, playstyle, events, adminning, and his dezzmont-level posts as well.
Says what I think, but louder, and in better detail, If you can't be bothered to read it that's you're problem, it's not incoherent or anything, it's just descriptive and lengthy.

Fullmin him, More spine than anyone else I've seen trial.

[NikNakFlak]

But you're shitty and awful when it comes to arguments too

[J_Madison]

TL;DR
Oldman admins only if the situation upsets him personally as an egotistical powergaming greytider and will step in when someone tries to stop someone from being a powergaming greytider.
He also constantly spams events if his friends die/he doesn't feel the round is getting constant non-stop action/if he isn't antag.
His bans are paper thin, have no integrity, and get appealed.
He'll use his admin powers to step in if the event isn't going the way he likes (his event antags get killed).

[Sidon]

Lotta claims for a lotta no evidence there

[oranges]

jesus christ J_madison stop being autistic, did oldman do something horrible to you in a past life or something?

anyway I think oldman will be fine as an admin, he might need someone to reign him in every now and again but then again, who doesn't.

[Saegrimr]

jesus christ J_madison stop being autistic

You forget who you're quoting.

The only way this thread could get more walls of text to rival Berlin is if Tornadium showed up.

[J_Madison]

jesus christ J_madison stop being autistic, did oldman do something horrible to you in a past life or something?

ya he molested my shoulder with his breathing fnr

jesus christ J_madison stop being autistic

You forget who you're quoting.

The only way this thread could get more walls of text to rival Berlin is if Tornadium showed up.

I wouldn't do a wall of text if it wasn't for the fact that oldman refuses to back down and tries to tire someone out by keeping the argument going.
He asked for a source. So I did.

[Oldman Robustin]

TL;DR
Oldman admins only if the situation upsets him personally as an egotistical powergaming greytider and will step in when someone tries to stop someone from being a powergaming greytider.
He also constantly spams events if his friends die/he doesn't feel the round is getting constant non-stop action/if he isn't antag.
His bans are paper thin, have no integrity, and get appealed.
He'll use his admin powers to step in if the event isn't going the way he likes (his event antags get killed).

What are you even posting?

I responded to that Ahelp and banned the clown responsible after a thorough discussion and investigation and summoned them back a standard CMO loadout as an extra favor. I didn't even see the IRC comment until you posted it. I had to take a moment to respond because I was solominning in a chaotic round busy dealing with banning Bryce Pax (he's almost as verbose as I am) and multiple name change requests from multiple new AI's at the same time as the initial BWOINK came in, and had half a dozen windows open from dealing with other ahelps. That particular player is barely tolerable as it is, the prior round they were screaming at me in all caps because I told them the borg killing them was valid due to an emag. But I kept my cool and did my job.

The clown I banned even thanked me for the diligent discussion that helped him understand where he went wrong. So J_Mad all you've done is demonstrate what most people here already know, that I'm a very competent admin who provides thoughtful responses to every Ahelp I field, so... thanks for bringing that up?

Sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here.

[J_Madison]

So J_Mad all you've done is demonstrate what most people here already know, that I'm a very competent admin who provides thoughtful responses to every Ahelp I field, so... thanks for bringing that up?

Sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here.

You missed the blogpost wall.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p200457

Also, why're you focuses on banning one individual so much?

Edit: though my apologies for taking that screenshot out of context. I wasn't aware of the situation at hand and jumped to conclusions. That I apologise for, but I have to raise the question of why you make every round you're in, antag or event runner, so chaotic?

[Oldman Robustin]

[You missed the blogpost wall.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p200457

That wall was the same thing as the screenshot you posted, discredited complaints or complaints I've already addressed. I'm sure in a couple months when I find some new way to offend you, you'll link to that screenshot as an example of what a terrible person I am.

@Kor

I like to keep rounds entertaining, and sometimes short is sweet, but thats not mutually exclusive from having depth or length in a round, but I haven't forgotten the agony of overzealous admins ruining my rounds either. Back in 2010 one of the first things I did on Goon was get someone deadminned for targeting me with a bunch of highly lethal events.

I'm the only admin I've seen who polls people on their own events or generally hands agency over to the crew for highly destructive events (letting them decide how much destruction they want to stomach). When I run events that I know may hasten a round end, I'll try to check on every antag, scientist, the surviving miners, etc. to make sure I'm not screwing anyone over. I'm not perfect, sometimes I go overboard in catering to the dead players, but the point is I do my button pressing with a lot of consideration for everyone involved and for the purpose of giving players more memorable rounds.

If this poll had turned out differently, I would have a different philosophy, but as far as I'm concerned players generally enjoy the events I run and the rate at which I run them:

http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/ingamepolls.php#p139

[J_Madison]

That's fine. I might use that screenshot.
You still haven't addressed my points or concerns that Kor has raised.
Or my accusation that your personal playstyle affects your bans/Ahelp responses.
Or banning people without affirming their guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

[IcePacks]

killed a tider who hacked into the hop's office tried to jack the hop's id today (under the impression that he was successful), got a dayban for it

apparently if i had just left him bleeding to death in maint it would've been okay, but actually finishing him off crossed the line

i honestly had no beef with robustin (despite generally loathing him prior to him becoming admin) as admin but i'm in doubt now that i've been banned where other people have gotten free with much, much worse

[Shadowlight213]

You've really triggered shadow they've been passively agressively badmouthing you ever since.

I triggered them the moment I got trial'd. I recall expressing skepticism when I saw admins playing while retaining admin status, he seemed vehement that I was wrong, only a powergamer like me would ever let admin-given information influence my round, blah blah (later that day he would play Gang Boss as admin until he finally relented in asay, it was just a prank guys! really!). Ever since then he takes every shot he can get at me. I joked in asay about spawning a devil for the sole purpose of demonstrating how quickly they ruin rounds. He contacts me the following round and interrogates me for 10 minutes, demanding I prove that (despite the fact I had never created a devil) I wasn't being serious.

Then came the whole megafauna bit. Votes to demote me for using lesser ash drakes and then 3 hours later spawns an Ash Drake (not even a lesser). Then a couple nights ago I'm talking in asay with Shaps about a previous round, and because he disagrees with what I'm saying, after the next round starts he blows of all my limbs and tongue off my miner and never restored them.

So yea, memes ahoy.

Switching focus away from the main points I brought up in order to switch to personal attacks? Jesus, you sound like a political attack ad.

[TechnoAlchemist]

lawyers am i right

[captain sawrge]

lawyers am i right

his autist list thing infuriates me