/tg/Station 13

It's that time again. Time to make the wiki great again. The wiki drive runs from January 23, 2017 (according to the wiki time) and lasts until February 15, 2017, and comes with prizes for those who do the most work! Feel free to donate more prizes.

As before, it is a points based system. The more substantial the edit, the more points:

POINTS:

5 points: Enormous content additions, like writing a guide from scratch or completely rewriting one to be much better.
3 points: Major content additions, such as adding new antag/feature/Lavaland content that is missing.
2 points: Minor content additions, like adding an item to a list. Corrections of factually incorrect information. Image stuff.
1 points: Spelling errors and similar trivial edits. Limit: One point per editor per page.
0 points: Obvious attempts to game the score system.

PRIZES:

From bgobandit: An antag token to the top three editors: XDTM, Iatots and Swindly
From Doctor_Pork: Steam game to the #1 editor: XDTM

WHERE TO FIND THINGS TO FIX:

- Wiki Hit List: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 4&p=226530 -- From late 2016. Ignore the wiki sticky, it's from 5ever ago and I don't know why it's a sticky and this is not.
- Recent Changes: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges -- this is also where I will be tallying points from
- Github pulse log: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pulse -- note that a lot of these are bugfixes or minor changes, but every little bit counts, right?
- Just browsing random pages, the wiki is in poor enough shape that you'll probably find something

FINAL LEADERBOARD:

XDTM: 90 points
Iatots: 36 points
Swindly: 18 points
Factoryman942: 12 points
Steelpoint: 12 points
Kjolstet: 7 points
JJRcop: 5 points
Saul Myers: 5 points
Lexorion: 4 points
Arianya: 3 points
Armhulen: 3 points
ChangelingRain: 3 points
Calzilla1: 2 point
Thundercoot: 2 points
Atlanta_Ned: 1 point
Beerobot: 1 point
ElfLeaderMike: 1 point

3 points: Major content additions, such as adding Lavaland content that is missing.

Pages listing and detailing things you're supposed to explore just seems wrong.

Kor-a The Explorer

Kor wrote:

3 points: Major content additions, such as adding Lavaland content that is missing.

Pages listing and detailing things you're supposed to explore just seems wrong.

It's already in the open source codebase, so it's not as if it's a secret. The only thing accomplished by leaving it off the wiki is players adminhelping "WTF is strange elixir?" or whatever.

bandit wrote: It's already in the open source codebase

And yet there is still enough of a hurdle, even if only a mental one, that makes people feel a need for a wiki

bandit wrote: players adminhelping "WTF is strange elixir?"

"Only one way to find out!"

I've tried almost that literal wording and it just causes them to bug you until you give in / don't give in and get complained about. there's no reason to obfuscate information that's already public, this isn't goon

at any rate it's just an example, prompted by getting pretty much that exact ahelp minutes before

could we have a list of things that needs fixing

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=7654

You can also look at merged pull requests on the github, though you'll have to sift through a lot of bugfixes first.

bandit wrote:I've tried almost that literal wording and it just causes them to bug you until you give in / don't give in and get complained about. there's no reason to obfuscate information that's already public, this isn't goon

at any rate it's just an example, prompted by getting pretty much that exact ahelp minutes before

and that is another reason why lavaland was a mistake

or why we need a rule addition saying that mysteries can be fun, too, unless you're a codediving scrub

can we not make this yet another argument about lavaland, the only reason I mentioned it was A) I literally had just answered an ahelp about strange elixir and B) most new content is added there

Way to stifle people sharing information about your pet project to give it an added layer of mystique.

The thing about spoilers is that people who want to be surprised dont have to read them.

Do you honestly think this is about a "pet project"? The point is that in a game where you can do almost anything and there are a myriad of things to explore, having everything spoiled and laid out for you kills any sense of mystery. Saying he's "stifling" information implies he's aggressively trying to shut down information about it rather than reasonably questioning whether a comprehensive wiki is in the spirit of the game.

EDIT: Bandit's thread regarding rewards for doing work on the wiki is probably not the best place to have a discussion about the wiki in general, and should probably be taken to a new thread.

It's a wiki where people go to find answers to questions they have about the game.

Purposely leaving selected topics off of it is counter productive to that purpose. You think you're giving people this added experience of some "joy of discovery" which does exist but if they were already hitting up the wikie for answers its fair to say they are done trying to figure it out.

This seems like the perfect place to have this conversatio given the topic is about rewarding people for providing those answers, yet some of you dont want people to have them.

/tg/ has always been against having secret information about the game withheld from players. For years we made fun of goon for their sekret club mentality.

Now it's a thing just for lavaland?

"This is the way we've always done it" is a completely worthless excuse. It doesn't give any good reason to do something aside from familiarity. You can make fun of Goon all you want, but in the end they still have interesting secrets and things to explore, while there is next to none of that here. As Bandit has pointed out, people could simply code-dive or look at PR's to see what's changing. The information is there, but the element of exploration would be encouraged over having a wiki page up in another window.

And the fact is that we have a wiki, and the current policy is that it should be up to date. Whether or not we should have one at all/what information goes on it is an entirely different discussion, that should take place somewhere that's not derailing what Bandit is trying to do.

Why does that philosophy only apply to Lavaland?

If you want to encourage people to explore the game and find out things for themselves why not delete the sections on chemistry, R&D, atmos, engineering, xenobio,viro, etc?

None of what you've said answers why Lavaland is a special exemption to the philosophy we've had about in game information for years, you've just made fun of me for being old.

Again this is a pertinent conversation to the topic given that Kor just created the idea that there are now large portions of the game that he doesnt want to see on the wiki in a thread about filling in gaps on the wiki. This is super relevant.

It's not fair to purposely obfuscate information on an area that contains items that potentially obliterate game balance for everyone who doesnt know what they are or where to find them.

It's already been at a point for months where you have players who can go in and rip out armor and such like clockwork.

Hiding powerful game items behind MYSTERY is an incredibly shit way to balance said goodies when it just bones everyone who is trying to play for fun. You think keeping the information secret will make things more enjoyable for that crowd but the effect is that you're just making things worse for them.

Yeah fuckin boi

I still have my antag token from the last one, actually

Damn i should've waited before making the lavaland bosses page

>complain you don't like the game or the way it is run constantly
>complain when something is done differently because it breaks the mold of a game you hate

Alright

Qbopper wrote:Yeah fuckin boi

I still have my antag token from the last one, actually

Same.

In the meanwhile the server's changed too much for me to ever use it, I guess.

Kor wrote:>complain you don't like the game or the way it is run constantly
>complain when something is done differently because it breaks the mold of a game you hate

Alright

To be fair you've been fucking up game balance to add your popularity projects ever since Exosuits so this isnt really anything new.

But hey resorting to ad hominem attacks when I point out you're bending policy to make your own code more mysterious and snowflake just means Im right

I did not add exosuits, try again.

You sure got a lot of credit for them back then somehow.

Regardless you still havent explained why your lavaland project deserves to be censored from thr wiki when nothing else is.

If all the information is plainly visible in PR's and code why prevent someone from translating that into a guide for people who cant?

I don't think away missions or space debris or anything else based on exploration should be on there either.

It's possible to have a wiki that gives you enough information to play without it reading like a prima strategy guide that tells you exactly where every item is and the best items and when to use them and otherwise encourages people to silently min max instead of cooperating and learning.

Did you mean: to silently minmax relying on the wiki instead of silently minmaxing by code diving?

You really think the hardcore no-fun-allowed players are going to be hampered by this?

Werent people already murdering eachother over who could kill the most Ash Drakes?

That ship is long gone.

Telling people to play the game this one way by writing a strategy guide is just as bad as trying to force them to experience the game the way you want it by telling them nothing.

DemonFiren wrote:Did you mean: to silently minmax relying on the wiki instead of silently minmaxing by code diving?

The majority of players clearly don't code dive or we wouldn't need a wiki.

There is also a degree of separation for seeking information from something external to seeking information from what is something internal (the wiki is embedded into the game in lots of places, most recipe books link to pages there).

Most games have some sort of basic documentation or tutorial without telling you where every easter egg is, though obviously you can still go google that if you really wanted to.

Timbrewolf wrote:You really think the hardcore no-fun-allowed players are going to be hampered by this?

Werent people already murdering eachother over who could kill the most Ash Drakes?

That ship is long gone.

One person killed one other person once in 12 months of lavaland over perceived cheating on the scoreboard yes you're right we should all give up and cater exclusively to those sorts of people.

But now we're back to you hating the way the game is run but also whining that someone suggests it be run differently and every single post between us is pointless because you have no intention of ever playing the game again anyway.

Once again I'd really prefer this argument happen not here, but:

I feel pretty confident in saying I'm more active as an admin than most participants in this thread (with the probable exception of the trialmins). If something isn't on the wiki, players will adminhelp asking about it expecting an answer. I've tried telling people "why don't you try it for yourself?" About seven times out of ten, it just makes them salty. Two times out of ten, they're worried that it'll kill them or somehow get them in trouble. Which is entirely fair, because this is a game where "trying it for yourself to see what happens" can get you banned. (Imagine if we told them that for, say, putting together two bags of holding. Or for most things involving bombs.) Code-diving takes time and depending on the item you usually have to sift through a lot of junk to find your answer, which I know, because I'm the one who ends up doing it to answer people's questions.

The powergaming argument is pretty stupid. Powergamers already know all this shit, the wiki isn't for them. It's for new players. Even if those new players are like baby powergamers or whatever, there's a huge difference between minmaxing or encouraging powergaming, and providing basic information like what an item does, or even just that it exists.

(If you want to get really nerdy, this is basically an argument that "having a detailed wiki will attract diamonds and scare off spades." (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_ta ... ayer_types) This isn't how it works in games, generally. If anything, this kind of player tends to gravitate to games with detailed wikis. It gives them something to do and to improve.)

Bandit got this. Im out.

bandit wrote:Once again I'd really prefer this argument happen not here, but:

I feel pretty confident in saying I'm more active as an admin than most participants in this thread (with the probable exception of the trialmins). If something isn't on the wiki, players will adminhelp asking about it expecting an answer. I've tried telling people "why don't you try it for yourself?" About seven times out of ten, it just makes them salty. Two times out of ten, they're worried that it'll kill them or somehow get them in trouble. Which is entirely fair, because this is a game where "trying it for yourself to see what happens" can get you banned. (Imagine if we told them that for, say, putting together two bags of holding. Or for most things involving bombs.) Code-diving takes time and depending on the item you usually have to sift through a lot of junk to find your answer, which I know, because I'm the one who ends up doing it to answer people's questions.

The powergaming argument is pretty stupid. Powergamers already know all this shit, the wiki isn't for them. It's for new players. Even if those new players are like baby powergamers or whatever, there's a huge difference between minmaxing or encouraging powergaming, and providing basic information like what an item does, or even just that it exists.

(If you want to get really nerdy, this is basically an argument that "having a detailed wiki will attract diamonds and scare off spades." (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_ta ... ayer_types) This isn't how it works in games, generally. If anything, this kind of player tends to gravitate to games with detailed wikis. It gives them something to do and to improve.)

1) If a player gets salty about an adminhelp just ignore them its that easy

2) Stop banning people for experimenting. If an experiment will end the entire round (bags of holding) it's better to find a code solution like putting warnings on the item.

3) This is the perfect place to have the argument before someone spends their time screencapping every ruin and putting it on the wiki page complete with a guide to solving every "puzzle"/trap/which items are hidden where.

Maybe an example will help. The level of depth I am envisioning is along the lines of the guide to toxins. It doesn't tell people the secret formula to a maxcap bomb or whatever the equivalent is now, but it also allows people to get an idea of what's going on without ahelping "what's a tank transfer valve?" Considering that mining is a major station job as opposed to space ruins or away missions, I think it's a good corollary.

EDIT: maybe it was an even better example than I thought because it was totally wrong apparently! 5 points to the person who fixedt hat

Good thing i procrastinated instead of finishing my ruin screencap project

PROTIP: If you have changes you want to make to a protected page, copy the source of that page to a new page under your user page (or use your actual userpage).

thanks everyone who's been editing! leaderboard will go up today

thanks everyone who's been editing! leaderboard will go up today

Nice leaderboard 10/10

k

bandit wrote: LEADERBOARD:

XDTM: 35 points

Good fucking lord XDTM leave some points for the rest of us.

Anyway, I've done a few small edits, looking to do some more indepth stuff tonight.

bandit wrote: LEADERBOARD:

Iatots: 5 points
Kjolstet: 7 points

(TO BE UPDATED...)

10/10

also xdtm this isn't healthy, point overdose can kill

Atlanta-Ned wrote:PROTIP: If you have changes you want to make to a protected page, copy the source of that page to a new page under your user page (or use your actual userpage).

Hello, it's me
I was wondering if after all these days
you'd like to read
to go over every bit

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Iatots <-------

After all this time, the nuke op items in the https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Syndicate_Items page is now up to date! Start theorycrafting your nuke op loadout!

We don't have an asteroid anymore. Here, have an homepage with updated header picture for mining: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/User:Iatots.
I would edit it directly but I lack permission.

Snazzy, edited.

DemonFiren wrote:

bandit wrote:I've tried almost that literal wording and it just causes them to bug you until you give in / don't give in and get complained about. there's no reason to obfuscate information that's already public, this isn't goon

at any rate it's just an example, prompted by getting pretty much that exact ahelp minutes before

and that is another reason why lavaland was a mistake

or why we need a rule addition saying that mysteries can be fun, too, unless you're a codediving scrub

r u l e

1 0

also I agree with kor, taking the exploration out of the exploration section of the game just seems lame. I mistakenly touched on this in the chem guide by adding a section for mushroom toxins [which I never cared to update, nor has anyone else which is nice].

People always ask me for maxcap tutorials, I tell them to ask around or test it out themselves.

The reason i try to share what i find by codediving is that often it's a feature that is really cool/useful but since very few people know about it it doesn't get seen. If nobody even knows about a new cool space ruin, they'll keep thinking that space has nothing cool, won't explore space, and the ruin lies unexplored.

added romeral zombies

i'm gonna rework the golems part of it too

They should probably be in a table yeah

Stop ghosting me nerds. ^^^^^^^^^^
[[File:Needs revision.png|400px|link=Category:Needs_revision]]<br>
New image link on wiki homepage. Would link to the "Category: needs revisions" page.
Yes or no.