Robustin Suicide Watch - A way forward on the Engineering PR

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:07 am

My new system is posted on near the bottom of Page 2 in consideration of the feedback oranges has given me. There really isn't any reason to read anything before that unless you just love spicy forum fights.

I'm broken. I've been fucked with for nearly 2 months now. I've had 3 maintainers commit to seeing how my PR plays out in testing just to have it shut down because testing is a meme apparently. I was told by the """design lead"""" to find a maintainer to support me, I relied on the first one I found only to have my PRs closed within 48 hours because my maintainer wasn't high enough in the power rankings to stop Joan from pulling the plug.

So here I am with a good concept for a forgotten department, my unmerged reward PRs are sitting at 9-2, 16-2, and 11-5. Yet the impetus for my PR, giving engineering/atmos a purpose beyond "don't sabotage your own workplace", is totally unaddressed and so I'm not willing to continue the 7 year trend of "engineering has no progress mechanic, no goals, but we give them sweet roundstart gear for rolling antag so it doesn't get abandoned and thus we don't have to confront our design failures".

Engineering and atmos have deep mechanics but need a reason to leverage them. Meanwhile I've come up with popular engineering themed rewards. What's missing is a popular way to connect the two. I had a solid plan worth testing that other maintainers were willing to test but apparently that's not enough. Yet because I actually give a shit, I'm not going to scrap a good idea just because it is a political challenge.

I've had multiple maintainers tell me how I can move my PR forward but I've also been lied to in a way that has wasted far too much of my time. So I'm here for something concrete, not another evanescent IRC convo that someone can disavow as soon as it gets politically difficult for them. Points are dead, I think it was a big mistake to assume my system would fail without even testing it, but I was never married to points in the first place, my only goal was to give engineering a purpose with more fulfilling rewards. I've spent hundreds of hours on this and do I'll spend hundreds more, but I need some assurance that this won't end in another debacle where my PR gets shut down right as its ready for testing.

Im not asking for unconditional support. I'm not asking for a guaranteed merge. But I do need a path that I can walk down without wondering every day whether Joan's gonna pop in and close it. But after 2 months and hundreds of hours, I believe I deserve some basic understanding . If I do what ____________ suggests, and my system is well liked during testing... can we finally discuss conditions for merging. It's a very, very reasonable ask.

I enjoy coding, I've learned a lot lately, and I think my vast experience as a player gives me insight into what is fun and what is awful. I want to keep contributing, but when I keep getting jerked around, seeing hundreds of hours of work treated like a punchline, I feel like a moron for even sticking around this long.

TLDR: Tell me how I can change my system so that it can get tested with the possibility of merging if it works out. If Dunc and Raz support my new system will Joan or Oranges still be able to waltz in and say "nah" before I even test it? How many maintainers do I need to win over to make my PR immune to getting closed right as its ready for testing? (happened twice now)

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:12 am #275681

Remove the construction nuke.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:15 am #275682

Oldman should at the very least be given the benefit of the doubt to bring his idea to a conclusion and at least have the minimum assurance that his feature will at least be tested and debated at the end of the line.

When someone commits months of effort into a feature, I think no matter how much you detest it, you should at least give them the minimum of trying out their proposed feature when its finished, and not to lead them about with the threat of pulling the plug on their project at any time for arbitrary reasons.

Anything else is cruel.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:19 am #275683

Steelpoint wrote:Oldman should at the very least be given the benefit of the doubt to bring his idea to a conclusion and at least have the minimum assurance that his feature will at least be tested and debated at the end of the line.

When someone commits months of effort into a feature, I think no matter how much you detest it, you should at least give them the minimum of trying out their proposed feature when its finished, and not to lead them about with the threat of pulling the plug on their project at any time for arbitrary reasons.

Anything else is cruel.

The only cruelty was letting the prs survive unclosed for so long.

And he is owed nothing.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:20 am #275684

it's oranges and I think the following items can be saved
Ranged RCD, RLD, Dance Machine, Prototype Emitter and the construction ship (assuming you can make it work as a template and not a thing on centcomm)

They can be introduced via research (prototype emitter, RCD, RLD, encourages engineering to help RnD, make them high level Engineering research levels) and the construction ship can be ordered via cargo (yeah I know, the one true points system, recommend ordering some kind of keycard that the CE can use on his console to summon the ship)

Note:when I say introduced via research I mean that engineering gets a protolathe that is linked to RnD and can build the components to build these machines.

The dance machine I have struggled to find a way to get it on station that is sensible, cargo is somewhat on the nose, so why not make it a constructable machine that just takes quite a bit of metal/glass and then some components from engineering storage (which used to hold the spare singularity)

That way engineers get to build it and choose where to build it.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:21 am #275685

Steelpoint wrote:When someone commits months of effort into a feature, I think no matter how much you detest it, you should at least give them the minimum of trying out their proposed feature when its finished, and not to lead them about with the threat of pulling the plug on their project at any time for arbitrary reasons.

Anything else is cruel.

Sunk cost fallacy, I'm not protecting robustin's effort, I'm protecting the thousands of man hours that went into this project already, on that seesaw robustin's pr is just another drop in the lake.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:34 am #275688

If you ask me the proper solutions to these issues is departmental protolathes and departmental cargo consoles that have access to department related crates and designes so that department can order and construct their own specialised equipment if they get the materials and or whatever cargo uses for values now.

Cargo would then be the way to get these items outside of the appropriate department, and each department could have their own ways to earn cargo credits with the earnings split 50/50 with the main department and each departments personal bank account.

I suspect cargo would need a better postage/cargo moving system before this could be implemented though.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:16 am #275695

To be fair if i can test merge the identity system then i can get away with test merging your engineering pr for a few rounds.

Give me a pr number ready to test and try to catch me when I'm online some time

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:27 am #275696

oranges wrote:it's oranges and I think the following items can be saved
Ranged RCD, RLD, Dance Machine, Prototype Emitter and the construction ship (assuming you can make it work as a template and not a thing on centcomm)

They can be introduced via research (prototype emitter, RCD, RLD, encourages engineering to help RnD, make them high level Engineering research levels) and the construction ship can be ordered via cargo (yeah I know, the one true points system, recommend ordering some kind of keycard that the CE can use on his console to summon the ship)

Note:when I say introduced via research I mean that engineering gets a protolathe that is linked to RnD and can build the components to build these machines.

The dance machine I have struggled to find a way to get it on station that is sensible, cargo is somewhat on the nose, so why not make it a constructable machine that just takes quite a bit of metal/glass and then some components from engineering storage (which used to hold the spare singularity)

That way engineers get to build it and choose where to build it.

If the end result of this is just "more shit gets added to R&D and Cargo for nobody but R&D and Cargo to play with" I'd rather just bite the bullet and add the damn good boy points machine.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:00 am #275707

Wrong cheridan read my posts

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:05 am #275709

also if you want to make them engineering only without involving RnD or Cargo then they just need to be mega constructions that take many resources adn many frames to put together and create the items, along with powering and keeping powered each frame element.

It's kinda hard to get items on to the station in any other way without immersion breaking vending machines that accept random ass things like the ORM and his engineering power vendor

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:52 am #275716

also it's oranges

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:04 am #275717

First, if your going to ask people to spell out your name correctly, you should to the courtesy of spelling their names correctly as well oranges.

Secondly. I don't want the proposed system to be too heavily intertwined into non-engineering departments.

While I'm not against some interdepartmental cooperation being needed, but it should be on the same level as how RnD is dependant on the rest of the station. Meaning that most of RnD can be done within the department itself, but the very higher level research needs outside help.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:15 pm

oranges first and only criticism, within 5 minutes of me opening the first PR trashed my "pointless rewards that will get nerfed into the ground within days".

So I sunk a huge amount of time into replacing the placeholder rewards with thoughtful, unique, and fun rewards that weren't just valid-hunting tools like every other department gets.

A few weeks in oranges upped his opposition to "I wash my hands of this" which I thought he meant he would leave it alone, hah. He still hadn't offered any substantive input besides saying "its trash" and when I asked for suggestions his advice was always "delete it". Even last week when I pressed him for his input he refused, I asked him which dept. I should look to for ideas/improvements and his only response was "None of them, they're all garbage".

Now here we are, almost 2 months later and hundreds of hours in and now oranges only wants my "pointless rewards" added. It's utterly shameless. I made these things for engineers to accompany a system that gives engineers PURPOSE and a sense of PROGRESS besides "you have everything you could ever want at roundstart and your only purpose is to not sabotage your department". I put together a system inspired by my own extensive experience that would give engineers a reason to experiment with power, atmos a reason to experiment with gases, and both departments a reason to actually go out and do repairs.

I was, and still am 100% confident that this will be a player hit, and one of the most popular job overhauls in our history. It is precisely that reason why a few of my opponents are so desperate to keep it from being test merged. Kor has even acknowledged that it would be popular, but with only a faint understanding of the hypocrisy, argued it was a loot box and we shouldn't weigh the popularity of a PR in deciding whether to merge it - since our design affects who plays here, and in the same breath will argue that Lavaland was an excellent PR because "Shaft Miner is now the most popular role" - because people go to Lavaland for the deep lore and intricate RP and not just clicking on simple mobs so they can unlock the next Skinner's B... err necropolis chest. And these chests aren't things that help dept. interdependence, they don't help you do your job better, they're nukeop hardsuits, pudge hooks, morph (20-30TC value, free!) syringes, angel wings, voodoo dolls, and all sorts of crazy grief gear. Yes mining is popular, yes I enjoy mining, but singing its praises while warning about "the type of player our changes attract" when I have yet to see a player come back from a successful lavaland run (i.e. when a miner has found everything they wanted to find and returns to the station for the rest of the round) to do anything except grief people or valid hunt - reeks of inconsistency.

But even after all this, and the challenges I still face in trying to get maintainers to agree on anything - I stand here completely willing to toss the points and go for some kind of pseudo-fabricator system that allows for progress, rewards, and engagement with the deeper mechanics of engineering... but I need to know who I can even listen to for guidance. I've had multiple maintainers open to merging depending on how I change the system, right now I'm hearing oranges proposal for the very first time and frankly I'd rather turn to Dunc or Raz to hear them out first because making these items Pack #489 in Cargo or RND discovery #265 "except they require a CE ID!" feels like a far more self-defeating and doomed system than other ideas. Just like the plan to give firing pins to security but let RND build pinless guns, all that means is either no guns get made or RND finds a workaround and spams guns for themselves. I have not heard anything that suggests that moving these items to Cargo and RND wouldn't result in the same level of extreme dysfunction. Cheridan made the correct observation in this thread about shifting this to other departments, but then again I've been told even Cheridan has no power over this PR so who fucking knows.

Rant ends here, positive discussion begins here:

My current concept would be to make a fabricator, I already have the sprites from one of the early concepts I was trying, and having engineering able to funnel power into getting it built. The atmos/alarm systems would simply be a way to supplement the power feed. This would help with certain balance concerns since the crew/engineers would be able to tell what was being worked towards. The availability of certain blueprints MAY require items from other departments but I intend for the majority of the unique and interesting items to be available without having to stand outside cargo/RND screaming at the occupants to give them some special crate or part. I am willing to put in as many hours as it takes to get this system into that shape, but I do not want to do so just to have another maintainer swoop in right as I finish and close it (for the 3rd time).

@Headmins. All three of you have offered to testmerge my PR, I appreciate that, thats really all I've wanted since Day 1. But the issue is now that even if we test it and it becomes the best thing ever and players are all frothing at the mouth to get it added... it will still be a closed PR until I get some kind of guidance here. The people who closed my PR already anticipate it being popular and have all the reasons to ignore its popularity ready to go, so my primary concern is finding out exactly what direction I can take my system without getting meme'd on for another 100 hours of work.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:29 pm #275803

oranges wrote:If you ask me the proper solutions to these issues is departmental protolathes and departmental cargo consoles that have access to department related crates and designes so that department can order and construct their own specialised equipment if they get the materials and or whatever cargo uses for values now.

Cargo would then be the way to get these items outside of the appropriate department, and each department could have their own ways to earn cargo credits with the earnings split 50/50 with the main department and each departments personal bank account.

I suspect cargo would need a better postage/cargo moving system before this could be implemented though.

I was actually already working on this but got frustrated for some reason [it was a while back] and deleted the branch hmmmm...

Actually I think it was because I couldn't figure out how to sweettalk the code into giving me the export reference which is probably laughably easy when I make another pass on it. Probably will work on this after the freeze.

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:29 pm #275804

Oranges:"TEH PIONT CISTEM IS NOT GOOD XD"
Me:So by that logic cargo, mining, most of science (R&D might as well be a point system and toxins is just wait for plasma to heat up), botany (somewhat), and medical aren't good either? I don't see anyone willing to revamp any of those except medical and I still don't think that will be a substantial improvement

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:29 pm #275805

I am going to preface this by saying that I dont like the idea, at all. There has to be a less ham-fisted way to incentivise engineering work and make the department more fun.

However I do think that if our maintainers never had any intention of merging Robustin's idea they probably should have been upfront about that rather than offering any sort of suggestion

(disclaimer i have very incomplete information about the whole ordeal and this is just the impression i got)

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:34 pm #275808

Wyzack wrote:I am going to preface this by saying that I dont like the idea, at all. There has to be a less ham-fisted way to incentivise engineering work and make the department more fun.

However I do think that if our maintainers never had any intention of merging Robustin's idea they probably should have been upfront about that rather than offering any sort of suggestion

(disclaimer i have very incomplete information about the whole ordeal and this is just the impression i got)

From what I've gathered, some maintainers are on board with the idea, but others are against it. It turns out those who are against it are higher in the food chain than those that support it apparently.

captain sawrge · Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:41 pm

>offer people an easy way* to get admin hardsuits and upgraded gloves and other balogna nonsense
of course it will be popular that doesn't mean it will be good in any way for the game

*the point system will absolutely be gamed to find an optimal setup and then experimentation will die and it will just be a matter of what gas mixture and engine setup best balances time vs. output until near every round people will be running around in chronosuits and full sets of power tools and building shuttles to fuck off into space forever

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:47 pm #275829

Well if some maintainers actually intended to merge it but didn't because of coderbus shit then no one is to blame but our silly politics.

To be entirely clear i do agree with oranges that just because a lot of time was spent on a thing doesn't mean that it absolutely deserves to be in the code barring all criticism, and as i said before i think this idea is dumb

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:10 pm #275863

Wyzack wrote:I am going to preface this by saying that I dont like the idea, at all. There has to be a less ham-fisted way to incentivise engineering work and make the department more fun.

However I do think that if our maintainers never had any intention of merging Robustin's idea they probably should have been upfront about that rather than offering any sort of suggestion

(disclaimer i have very incomplete information about the whole ordeal and this is just the impression i got)

^ sums up my feelings

what I want to know is if robustin began to code the idea without asking anyone what they thought of the system, or if he got feedback and THEN started to code

if he didn't even figure out what people thought and spent so long working on this system before presenting it for the first time then that was hilariously stupid

if he did ask and thought enough people were onboard with the idea to bother working, then I dunno

(seriously let me stress how fucking horrible I think point systems are)

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:38 pm

I had an ideas thread that preceeded the PR and I floated the idea in-game for weeks. I was just an idiot for assuming that wide player support meant anything to maintainers who wouldn't even be in-game to hear my ideas.

But this isn't a debate about points anymore, the debate is how I can change the system and which maintainer I need to talk to make it a reality and not just another chance for Joan to close the PR right before testing.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:45 pm #275909

Oldman Robustin wrote:I had an ideas thread that preceeded the PR and I floated the idea in-game for weeks. I was just an idiot for assuming that wide player support meant anything to maintainers who wouldn't even be in-game to hear my ideas.

But this isn't a debate about points anymore, the debate is how I can change the system and which maintainer I need to talk to make it a reality and not just another chance for Joan to close the PR right before testing.

if maintainers are really this big of a problem then maybe the issues with them need to be made clearer to those of us who don't frequent coderbus/github

I constantly hear people complaining about maintainers, and even if it's true, it makes it hard to take seriously because of the way people complain about it

If Joan/etc. really do have these habits that are so terrible then why does no one bring it up beyond problems with their specific POR? Why has no one spoken to these specific people if they're really so bad for this stuff? I don't get it

I'm not directing this at you specifically robustin but I just find it hard to believe that the maintainers are so terrible when half the complaints sounds like "my thing didn't get merged fucking maintainers are hitler", if there is an actual problem with them someone needs to make it clear to everyone instead of these little jabs at them - snide comments really don't do anything and I see it all the time

captain sawrge · Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:14 pm

Oldman Robustin wrote: I was just an idiot for assuming that wide player support meant anything to maintainers who wouldn't even be in-game to hear my ideas.

this but without the sarcasm

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:15 pm #275976

captain sawrge wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote: I was just an idiot for assuming that wide player support meant anything to maintainers who wouldn't even be in-game to hear my ideas.
this but without the sarcasm

kinda rude but I have to agree, just because people like the idea of something doesn't mean they considered the implications/it's a good idea long term/etc. etc.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Nobody here disagrees. But the unwillingness to even let a popular PR even get tested is a sign of politics, not good maintenance. Joan had 0 comments about my design, 0 discussion when I talked about it in IRC, yet when its ready for testing suddenly she has a strong opinion about it and needs to act on that opinion immediately.

I was explicitly told by Kor to find a maintainer willing to merge on Friday. So far I've found two, and yet Joan managed to close my PR with the message "Literally NONE of the maintainers want to merge this".

So now I'm changing the system off of points, but I'm waiting in this thread for someone to offer serious guidance about how to avoid getting meme'd by Joan again.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:51 pm #276017

If you want engineers to work to create more power, give them shock gloves that shock people with a percentage of the unused power in the power grid

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:24 pm #276034

Oldman Robustin wrote:Nobody here disagrees. But the unwillingness to even let a popular PR even get tested is a sign of politics, not good maintenance. Joan had 0 comments about my design, 0 discussion when I talked about it in IRC, yet when its ready for testing suddenly she has a strong opinion about it and needs to act on that opinion immediately.

I was explicitly told by Kor to find a maintainer willing to merge on Friday. So far I've found two, and yet Joan managed to close my PR with the message "Literally NONE of the maintainers want to merge this".

if this is true then again someone needs to speak with Joan

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:01 pm

Qbopper wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Nobody here disagrees. But the unwillingness to even let a popular PR even get tested is a sign of politics, not good maintenance. Joan had 0 comments about my design, 0 discussion when I talked about it in IRC, yet when its ready for testing suddenly she has a strong opinion about it and needs to act on that opinion immediately.

I was explicitly told by Kor to find a maintainer willing to merge on Friday. So far I've found two, and yet Joan managed to close my PR with the message "Literally NONE of the maintainers want to merge this".
if this is true then again someone needs to speak with Joan

I got demoted last year because Joan convinced me that Lesser Ash Drakes didn't count as megafauna and thus didn't fall under the "no megafauna spawning because it messes up my stat tracking" rule. Kor didn't care then and I doubt he cares now.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:47 pm #276084

calzilla1 wrote:Oranges:"TEH PIONT CISTEM IS NOT GOOD XD"
Me:So by that logic cargo, mining, most of science (R&D might as well be a point system and toxins is just wait for plasma to heat up), botany (somewhat), and medical aren't good either? I don't see anyone willing to revamp any of those except medical and I still don't think that will be a substantial improvement

Yes I agree with you

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:48 pm #276086

Wyzack wrote:However I do think that if our maintainers never had any intention of merging Robustin's idea they probably should have been upfront about that rather than offering any sort of suggestion

I agree, had a I not been recently demaintainered I would have shut his PR.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:49 pm #276087

Qbopper wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Nobody here disagrees. But the unwillingness to even let a popular PR even get tested is a sign of politics, not good maintenance. Joan had 0 comments about my design, 0 discussion when I talked about it in IRC, yet when its ready for testing suddenly she has a strong opinion about it and needs to act on that opinion immediately.

I was explicitly told by Kor to find a maintainer willing to merge on Friday. So far I've found two, and yet Joan managed to close my PR with the message "Literally NONE of the maintainers want to merge this".
if this is true then again someone needs to speak with Joan

You police the admins, we'll police the maintainers thank you.

onleavedontatme · Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:49 pm

Laziest solution I'm not sure would be a good idea but I'd be willing to discuss: Just scrap cargo exports/stock markets because they are a way worse and way less balanced points system, have engineering sell power and gas on the cargo shuttle, tweak the cash values of the crates to work with your formula.

I'd still not be 100% happy because it's still a self contained points system but at least we'd be removing a worse one in the process.

Harder, vaguer solution: Assembling large machines that require power sink levels of power to use, that benefit the station as a whole in various ways (meteor shield, BSA, gene vault, whatever)

What I obviously think is the best solution but I realize you probably dont want to work on at this time: Planetstation(TM) requiring generating and directing power to the bluespace cannon, defensive turrets, the station itself, the gateway, (maybe even some kind of magic alien printer for those hardsuits). Players would have to make choices about what they used the upgraded infrastructure for with various tradeoffs instead of simply racking up GBP until they get their prizes.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:50 pm #276090

Steelpoint wrote:First, if your going to ask people to spell out your name correctly, you should to the courtesy of spelling their names correctly as well oranges.

Wat

Oldman Robustin · Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:11 pm

The cargo idea is feasible except for the department conflict. Techs just sit around kicking a can and if engineering gets murdered up then its GG cargo. Likewise if cargo fucks off then engineering is left trying to scavenge for an ID that lets them redeem their hard work.

I like the idea of power being a flexible resource with multiple purposes and strategic choices that must be made in how to use it (isnt that how power should be?), but having the [name undecided] fabricator should be a part of that equation. I'll also remove the ERT suits and add a new version that give you the speed of the hardsuit minus the armor because now ADMIN HARDSUITS is here to supplement CARS as the meme of the day.

Here's the core that I really feel strongly about:

1) Excess power should have a purpose, that purpose should be flexible and engineers should have the option to personally benefit from excess power.
2) The canister market should have a purpose, ideally the same kind of purpose that excess power has. I really, REALLY enjoyed this during testing. The time limit, the randomization, it was really a struggle even to fill moderate orders and I think its a great solution for making atmos more than a "DONT SABOTAGE YOUR DEPT. BUT DONT HARDEN IT AGAINST SABOTAGE EITHER AND THATS YOUR ENTIRE JOB" meme.
3) Minimizing alerts should be factored in, either as a penalty to power generation or something else, so that engineering isn't just holed up without any reason to assist in repairs.
4) The popular rewards that ive poured my heart and soul into should be available to engineers as an achievable goal for participating #1-3.

Theres room in that plan for other machines, the fabricator which makes #4 doesn't have to be the EXCLUSIVE outlet for engineer's hard work. Engineers could either choose to divert the power to other machines that (Kor's ideas here) would use, and maybe the fabricator just uses run-off from that power stream to make its progress. Everyone agrees that engineering should have a reason to care about power and atmos needs a reason to do, something... and most people seem to agree that my rewards are good now, I'm not going to let memes kill a fundamental concept whose time has come.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:31 pm #276118

oranges wrote:You police the admins, we'll police the maintainers thank you.

What kind of mentality is this

by your logic we may as well close ban appeals and admin complaints/feedback because the only people who can criticize admins are admins

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:44 pm #276188

You didn't offer any constructive criticism you were just minimodding

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:49 pm #276192

oranges wrote:You didn't offer any constructive criticism you were just minimodding

I don't know the situation beyond one person saying "Joan did a bad thing", what kind of constructive criticism can I give here? "If you did that thing please don't do that thing"?

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:10 pm #276215

Oldman Robustin wrote: The cargo idea is feasible except for the department conflict. Techs just sit around kicking a can and if engineering gets murdered up then its GG cargo. Likewise if cargo fucks off then engineering is left trying to scavenge for an ID that lets them redeem their hard work.

I don't think there are that many rounds that cargo and RnD are out of the picture or fighting engineering for some reason.

Oldman Robustin wrote: I like the idea of power being a flexible resource with multiple purposes and strategic choices that must be made in how to use it (isnt that how power should be?), but having the [name undecided] fabricator should be a part of that equation. I'll also remove the ERT suits and add a new version that give you the speed of the hardsuit minus the armor because now ADMIN HARDSUITS is here to supplement CARS as the meme of the day.

The problem isn't necessarily the rewards, it's the method of obtaining them: a partially disguised points vendor that eats power and shits out items, that's not very engaging or immersing and on top of that is nowhere near deep or strategic. So we agree on the first point that power should be strategic and have multiple purposes that require choice and decisions. But nothing in your PR offers that, it's just adding a power sink that makes items and it's the only option that would make sense for an engineer and the only reason to optimise the engine, that's not deep, it's single track.

Why can't there be multiple choices? I.e instead of direction the power to your "fabricator" you direct the power to a jumpgate to allow the Engineering ship to arrive instead? Why can't you redirect power through another machine that provides the ability to improve hardsuits to have faster movement for a period of time (chargin their super capacitors), why don't machines exist that let you overcharge lasers and tasers? Why dont' machines exist that can shorten shuttle trips by providing improved jump capacity? These are at least in theory interesting tradeoffs that are more than just should I wait for this much power or this much power to be banked to be buying some item just for me. Is the truth that you actually really don't care about depth and just want some shiny toys for engineering? Because that is what it seems like.

The other concern is that the SM may not be mechanically deep enough that it''s actually a challenge to get the required power elements. On top of that I haven't seen anywhere near enough theory crafting from you about possible power yields and times to each power level to make me anywhere near comfortable enough to merge your PR rewards and no, claiming that they will be adjusted later just isn't good enough because in my experience that rarely happens.

You're claiming it should be deep and engaging and a many course meal and then offering a single bowl of food

Oldman Robustin wrote: 2) The canister market should have a purpose, ideally the same kind of purpose that excess power has. I really, REALLY enjoyed this during testing. The time limit, the randomization, it was really a struggle even to fill moderate orders and I think its a great solution for making atmos more than a "DONT SABOTAGE YOUR DEPT. BUT DONT HARDEN IT AGAINST SABOTAGE EITHER AND THATS YOUR ENTIRE JOB" meme.

I think the canister market is an alright idea, but again it's somethign that thematically makes more sense to run through cargo and would work better if the departmental cargo was implemented nicely, Atmos's real job should be building piping around the station to machinery that can then unlock advanced functionality.

Oldman Robustin wrote: 3) Minimizing alerts should be factored in, either as a penalty to power generation or something else, so that engineering isn't just holed up without any reason to assist in repairs.

I agree that this is fine and this actually makes sense as a voucher system because it's the kind of incentives a job would offer

Oldman Robustin wrote: 4) The popular rewards that ive poured my heart and soul into should be available to engineers as an achievable goal for participating #1-3.

This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end, you seem like the kind of person who they target COD upgrade levels too. LIke oh I'm master sergeant sergeant captain now, it was all worth it.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Theres room in that plan for other machines, the fabricator which makes #4 doesn't have to be the EXCLUSIVE outlet for engineer's hard work. Engineers could either choose to divert the power to other machines that (Kor's ideas here) would use, and maybe the fabricator just uses run-off from that power stream to make its progress.

Addressed in earlier comment.

Oldman Robustin wrote: Everyone agrees that engineering should have a reason to care about power and atmos needs a reason to do, something... and most people seem to agree that my rewards are good now

Most people are not the people you need to convince, engineering should care about power and atmos, but the reasons shouldn't just be because they can get shinier weapons and gear if they do.

Oldman Robustin wrote: I'm not going to let memes kill a fundamental concept whose time has come.

Dismissing the maintainers very real concerns when you think they're not paying attention is part of the reason why none of the maintainers want to work with you, because it doesn't seem like you will act in good faith, especially when you're already known for being argumentative and stubborn. Maintainers will spend their time working with more flexibile people and your PR's will be starved from attention, as you may have already noticed. On top of that it will be very hard to rectify that situation as maintainers are not realistically answerable to anyone but Cheridan.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:12 pm #276218

Qbopper wrote:
oranges wrote:You didn't offer any constructive criticism you were just minimodding
I don't know the situation beyond one person saying "Joan did a bad thing", what kind of constructive criticism can I give here? "If you did that thing please don't do that thing"?

Right, so there's no need to comment then, if you have concerns you can speak to Cheridan who is the only authority figure for maintainers.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:50 pm #276241

Really not constructive Haev.

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:00 am #276244

oranges wrote:This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end.

I am sincerely confused. Almost every job on the station is played to get the cool rewards at the end, and the ones that don't get rewarded are often unplayed. R&D gets the shiniest toys. Xenobiology gets Golems. Cargo gets shotguns. Robotics can make mechs and flight suits. Genetics has superpowers. Botany gets their super plant of their choice. Toxins gets bombs. Virology gets their healing/murderous plague. Mining has like FOUR sources of rewards.

Most jobs are sort of like chores you do to get to the shiny things, don't suddenly act like the jobs themselves are the rewards.

captain sawrge · Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:02 am

Lazengann wrote:
oranges wrote:This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end.
Most jobs are sort of like chores you do to get to the shiny things, don't suddenly act like the jobs themselves are the rewards.

reading comprehension

Lazengann · Post by **Lazengann** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:32 am #276253

captain sawrge wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
oranges wrote:This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end.
Most jobs are sort of like chores you do to get to the shiny things, don't suddenly act like the jobs themselves are the rewards.
reading comprehension

Feck off Sawrge. You and I both know the jobs are the same every round, once you finish experimenting with a job the only thing to look forward to is the player interactions with the special stuff you get for doing your job. Engineers don't get any special interactions as the only thing they have that separates them from an assistant is a hardsuit.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:36 am #276257

On that post that Haev was super annoyed with me for/what oranges was saying, and I said this in coderbus

I was more posting to say "is robustin's portrayal of events true and if they are why is no one doing anything about it", not "maintainers are shit"

I didn't do a good job of that looking back, though

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:38 am #276258

Do we forget our savior hornygranny so easily?
The player opinion does NOT matter, the seperation between code and playerbase is absolute.
Maintainers decide what they want in the game. Your "support" is meaningless and I suggest if you want something added you buddy up to a maintainer or break out your PayPal.

TrustyGun · Post by **TrustyGun** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:47 am #276260

Off Topic But Perhaps On Topic Anyways: It's really shitty that Oldman spent two months on this PR only for it to get fucked left and right into 5 different prs. If you guys wanted something completely different you should have probably mentioned in the original thread or PR instead of torturing him.

Definitely On Topic: The good-boy vendor shouldn't passively generate points. It should be something that can be turned on to take up a massive amount of power (powersink level) to create points.

The main advantage of this is that it encourages more options on how to grind out the vendor. They could figure out a way to keep the vendor on AND keep the station powered at the same time, or subject the station to blackouts every ten seconds (which could be more effective, but piss off everyone).

The secondary advantage is that it also opens up options for antags to use the machine to their own goals, by using the machine as a powersink-lite.

John_Oxford · Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:56 am

One person being able to deny a PR after someone spends 1000+ hours on it is bad.

If you think otherwise, i question how you are even alive.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:03 am #276267

You're wrong and NT station explains exactly why.

Also see

oranges wrote:Sunk cost fallacy, I'm not protecting robustin's effort, I'm protecting the thousands of man hours that went into this project already, on that seesaw robustin's pr is just another drop in the lake.

Post by **oranges** » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:13 am #276274

Lazengann wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:
Lazengann wrote:
oranges wrote:This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end.
Most jobs are sort of like chores you do to get to the shiny things, don't suddenly act like the jobs themselves are the rewards.
reading comprehension
Feck off Sawrge. You and I both know the jobs are the same every round, once you finish experimenting with a job the only thing to look forward to is the player interactions with the special stuff you get for doing your job.

This is the case and it's awful and the cause of 99% of our issues.