oranges wrote:This is mostly sunk cost fallacy but the main reason I disagree is that the jobs are meant to be mechanically interesting enough that just completing the work is the reward, not some item you get at the end.
Most jobs are sort of like chores you do to get to the shiny things, don't suddenly act like the jobs themselves are the rewards.
reading comprehension
Feck off Sawrge. You and I both know the jobs are the same every round, once you finish experimenting with a job the only thing to look forward to is the player interactions with the special stuff you get for doing your job.
This is the case and it's awful and the cause of 99% of our issues.
TrustyGun wrote:If you guys wanted something completely different you should have probably mentioned in the original thread or PR instead of torturing him.
I'm an asshole tyrant if I don't let people flesh out their ideas, and I'm an asshole if I do let them waste time fleshing out their ideas and then still not liking them, and I'm a spineless pushover who isn't doing their job if I just let whatever get merged. Even if I purely followed voting for each PR people who lost the vote would be mad at me when I closed/merged.
I probably should have just shut it down on the first PR since I'm going to get a ton of vitriol either way, but is anyone really surprised maintainers kept trying to pass the responsibility for the PR off on someone else? Nobody wants to be the target of the forum witchunt, the target of OOC shitstirring when we're not around to defend ourselves, to be yelled at drunkenly in IRC for four hours, accused of bias, and so on and so forth? Last time I demanded changes to a major project before I'd merge it I got an 11 paragraph forum post about how he hated me and I'd reduced him to tears from the coder in question.
Not to mention even if you risk all the drama, there is always a chance they'll go over your head or behind your back to get another maintainer to reopen it, or MSO to testmerge it indefinitely or whatever so it doesn't even end with the close button.
There are 80 PRs a week, and only so much time and energy the small group of maintainers have, so yes we often just try and avoid conflict even if it ends up worse in the end.
Credit where its due, oranges was always up front about his opinions with the project from the first comment he made, similar to Kor.
However from my quick look over, it seems most of the surface complaints from maintainers was how 'shit' the rewards were when the proposal was initially tabled.
I also notice how some maintainers seemed to take any excuse to close a Robustin PR. Sort of how the very first PR was closed by a maintainer because Robustin failed to immediately atomise his PR, which he allegedly was unable to do so in the short time frame due to real life constraints.
I find it amusing that this Engineering proposal is getting more obstructions and hate than 99% of my Security PRs ever got. At the very least I was given plenty of time to effect and make changes to my PRs when requested by maintainers.
The simplest way to read this thread is that oranges hates the way we've structured jobs and I tried to design a system that worked like other jobs, but better.
@oranges
Thank you for the feedback, I never intended to ignore the maintainers, its just that they (and you included) never saw fit to guide me. You helped me with code and Git but your advice from 5 minutes in was always "delete it". Regardless of whether that was the right thing to do, it just signaled that I should ignore you if I wanted to move my concept forward. I've been worried for a month about the future of the system and would've gladly accommodated any maintainer that would give my PR real attention and focus. I know my reputation for arguing but if someone approached me as a partner instead of an adversary who wanted nothing more than to take shots at me in IRC, I would've gladly accepted guidance. That goes for all the maintainers - I didn't spend all day in IRC so I could play Robustin PR Debate Club, I was there for guidance, for advice, for help.
With respect to your feedback, this is the part where I need help. I've had Raz and Dunc express interest in adjusting the system but I turned to you since you actually seem passionate about this. You and Kor both seem to like this powering machine concept but part of my eternal frustration with Kor was the combination of this deep-seated desire to have power used for unique purposes but an inability to express in even the loosest terms what that would consist of. I can churn my brain and I'm sure I have a couple ideas in there, but here are my chief concerns before I start coding them up:
1) This can't be Station Goals by another name. Long difficult projects with middling payoff has proven itself a failure and I don't want to retread those steps.
2) Will Engineers/Atmosians themselves have a motivation to power this equipment? I firmly believe engineer's deserve a bigger slice of the pie for their efforts. That doesn't mean personal rewards, but it does mean getting to participate/interact with whatever the new machines do.
3) Will all of these machines be able to go online as soon as they get sufficient power? I was 100% confident that I could balance power "points" under the old system because all I had to do was change a single variable to ramp up the diminishing returns if necessary. It gets a lot harder if power generation creates instant payoffs that don't give a shit about diminishing returns. Balancing these will prove much more challenging.
I also wouldn't discount the flexibility that a fabricator can offer and the depth I can add so its not just a giant power sink. For example the fabricator could have randomized (every round) "efficiency" levels for certain inputs so that one design might benefit far more from active atmos exports while another design would scale better with heightened power generation. I also am open to other departments playing a role in unlocking certain designs. I still haven't decided whether atmos exports are simply exchanged for additional power generation (that might be exempt from the diminishing returns) or whether the atmos canisters would assist in whatever reaction is powering the fabricator with economy/standard/premium canisters representing "fuel quality" instead of "order value". Having to commit to a design from the get-go and not having a bank of points also adds strategic depth to choices, you can't just rack up points and then spend it whenever its most convenient - the more powerful stuff requires a big commitment from the getgo which in turn gives engineers a very compelling reason to keep the station functioning beyond the alert system. Whereas before if you fell short of a goal you could always compensate with a slightly less expensive choice.
Lastly regarding cargo exports. My biggest concern is just what we'd expect cargo to do and the lack of control that engineering would have over their income. I would be salty myself if I coordinated a big surge in income as an engineering dept. only to find out that cargo blew it all on shotguns or security seized cargo for implants because someone yelled about flashing on the radio. Likewise if I were a cargo tech I wouldn't be thrilled to have my job duty consist of hauling stuff from engineering. I mean cargo suck as it is, but I don't see this an improvement on their end.
The machines really are going to be difficult though, science has already consumed such a vast amount of design space with respect to machinery and machine improvements. There's also the question of how atmos participates in that kind of system, the fabricator can incorporate canister shipments but its hard for me to imagine how atmos can contribute to powering machines in a way that isn't just vanilla gas pumping. I'm not worried about the SM design as much, I can alter that if an optimized setup becomes too rote so that an SM has unique randomized characteristics every round that will require more testing and creativity to optimize. Plus I had always intended that even if Engineering "perfected" one engine, that they would have an incentive to set a second engine, solars, or even the turbine to push that number even higher - regardless the SM isn't hard to balance, there's just a few key variables that decide power output.
Kor, my issue first comments was that they literally came in before either of you had read the PR or its corresponding ideas thread. Its difficult if not irresponsible to immediately react to the first kneejerks you see responding to a thread, especially since haters are far more quick on the trigger than most supporters. oranges, I wasn't even aware you were a maintainer and I felt Kor's comment was overall supportive because I was confident I could change the system to alter his view of it by reducing the "farming" aspect and increasing incentives for engineers/atmosians to get out and repair damage. In short, I did what was suggested and tried to adjust my PR based on short statements reacting to it but the give and take ended right there a month ago and I havent heard anything of serious substance from any of those 3 commentors until I opened this thread.
- Kor I read your concern as being about interdept. interdependence and people "holing up" for rewards, so I literally spent the next 3 days shifting focus away from power and making sure that station repairs were the dominant source of points. Is that a perfect system? No. But I sure as hell could've done a better job there if you had continued to give input, give me some kind of condition that would meet your approval. Not just a "well this is might be good but I have reservations" and then you go silent as I try to address them.
- Joan's comment is one that is just bullshit. The only concern she ever expressed was about rewards, and then at the end of the day the only shit that she wants to merge is the fucking rewards. On the giant shitheap of completely shameless stuff that Joan has done to me, this one is definitely in the top 5. I still don't even fucking know what she doesn't like about the system. But apparently I'm supposed to address all the maintainer's concerns, even the ones that refuse to speak to me. Fuck.
- orange's you quickly resorted to telling me just to delete the PR and refused to give further input. Your earlier post was more helpful than the entire last month combined, but why the hell did it take this long for one of the leading maintainers to give sober input.
Kor I approached you on multiple occasions practically begging for some clarity. At one point I was even convinced that you supported it, albeit with serious reservations, saying you felt it would "improve the game" but were worried that it was a death knell to interdepartmental work (which was still a silly concern since the system actually gave engineers a stake in longer rounds and a reason to do repairs, whereas right now you have this perverse relationship where the jobs required to keep the station running long-term are the jobs that gain nothing from sticking around for 90 minutes. You reassured me that I would be able to get some testing in once the PR was ready.
If big PR's are now decided by majority vote of maintainers then you had no business stringing me along with the hope that a single maintainer was enough. If big PR's are decided by any kind of group vote that process should be transparent and not just "Joan PM'd a few maintainers while you were offline and felt she had enough support to close your PR out of the blue. These are not crazy asks this is how most of society conducts itself. When everyone's working for free the least that you or Cheridan can do it try to offer enough consistency and transparency so that dysfunction and backroom politics aren't the modus operandi. Just like the atomization closure, it wasn't just the action that was shit, it was the timing and execution. When I had outlined the scope of my project on the forum and the PR header, why did maintainers egg me on to add rewards just to wait until I was done to order me to tear them all apart. Why did maintainers never mention atomization until I was already done even as the work grew at a consistent pace and completely in accordance with my PR's stated goals? Likewise in Stage 2 if my PR was going to be decided by a maintainer vote, why did I only find out until AFTER it was closed? Why did you tell me to find a single maintainer if 2 days later you would let Joan close my PR's because I didn't make the effort to get 3-4 maintainers? If I had known some meme vote was impending I wouldn't have spent all weekend updating my PR's and resolving conflicts I would've been out lobbying for support. I mean right after the PR closed I found a 2nd maintainer, who apparently didn't even know about my system, who was willing to help me get it into a format that he would support merging. That's 2 maintainer in about 90 minutes of me talking in IRC this weekend and yet Joan unironically closes my PR's because they have "NO MAINTAINERS WILLING TO MERGE" just to have you jump in on a few you like and say "JK this is good we like this ignore Joan". At this point it doesn't sound like a vote, it sounds like a hit job.
If big PR's aren't decided by a majority of maintainers but are decided by some kind of power hierarchy within the maintainers then that needs to be made transparent too. Who can overrule who? If a maintainer wants to merge my PR who can step in and say NO? Who DID step in and say no? Again these are basic tenets of a fair system that is healthier for EVERYONE involved when there are clear rules of hierarchy and authority. Kor I think you're a well rounded person and I generally like your style, but holy shit every time that circumstance brings us into close proximity all I do is see you get jerked around by sycophants and instead of having a backbone or investigating the truth, you just do whats easy, you acquiesce and other people suffer for it. I'm sure some of this responsibility falls on Cheridan too but it was always your name I heard when it came to sorting my PR out. When I started this PR I didn't even know who the maintainers are, I still can't find a clear list of them, and by yesterday I had several people unironically giving me maintainer power rankings to explain who was calling the shots. This isn't just for me, everyone will be happier if Coderbus has clear procedures and positions - even if that means a little more effort and discomfort in the short term.
So now, after all this work, it takes this massive fiasco to finally draw out serious feedback. I'm just at a loss. It's not even my time that was being wasted, I had at least 6 maintainers giving thorough review to thousands of lines of code. For the last time, it seems really clear to me that it would be in EVERYONE's best interest if things had gotten squared away from the get go, if Kor or Oranges or whoever calls the shots had just sat down and given me a blunt assessment about what needed to be changed before I embarked on one of the biggest PR's of all time, everyone would've fared better for it. That means serious feedback though and not just "Delete it" or "I have concerns about this, I'll get back to you about my true feelings in a month". Kor you have enough awareness to see the issue, you should have enough insight to see the solution.
Anyway thats my last rant about my treatment in this thread, I'm trying to come up with a mutually agreeable system and I think we've made progress on that front. Not a solution yet, but at least something for me to work with.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
It would be nice to actually see a list of who all the maintainers are, and their individual rankings within the hierarchy. Its implied some maintainers are in a higher position of power than others, but that's not showcased anywhere at all.
The closest we get is the forum 'coder maintainers' but that's a unreliable list. I would much prefer a actual list detailing everyone's name, not just a forum member list that has no guarantees of being accurate or up to date.
Here's a theory for exporting power thematically. Keep in mind, my ideas aren't maintainer approved.
We have a second crystal device, which acts more like a magnifying lense. Like the super matter shard, it has its own gas enclosure.
Shooting it from one direction causes the shot to pass through it, get amplified, and go out the other side. We can have multiple lasers (totally not a re-skinned emitter, I promise.) that have dial-able power outputs. Depending direction you aim for (north/south/east/west) you can give power to centcomm for cargo points, the energy market, for monies, or a third direction to power the engineering ships' capacitors for flight (optional, I have a second idea for the ship).
For atmo interaction, we have a crystal reader console, which gives you various gas mixes to get for the crystal. The optimal gas mix changes every 10-20 minutes, but the reader will accurately predict the next gas mix required. Giving atmo techies time to get pipes/canisters ready.
We can even tier the gas mixes, like you did the canisters, and they act like a point multiplier. No gas/wrong gas: 0.5* power sent. T1 gas: 1* power sent. T2 gas: 1.5* power sent. T3 gas: 2* power sent.
We can enable purchasing of fuel blocks for the engi-ship, so they aren't reliant on the engine to scoot around, or we can make that the only source of fuel.
We can alternatively enable the engi-ship power transfer direction to speed up the escape shuttle. (Although, this interferes with my head-cannon about the shuttle needing to complete complex docking manouvers and it landing at centcomm so fast because of hyperspatial tugboats.)
Also multiple people here have suggestions for the ship, i too want to give the ship more depth but it feels weird to be planning that when the PR is closed and probably wont see the light of day until i come up with a palatable alternative.
That page does not show all users becaue they can choose to show their affiliation or not with the org.
Realistically there is no fixed Heirarchy, any disagreements between maintainers are usually worked out through a chat and or an appeal to Kor or Cheridan to make a final decision, you can tell when this happens because your pr will sit there for several weeks or more, everyone else is roughly equal and we just avoid stepping on each others toes too much wherever there is an issue. Generally Cheridan and Kor don't hold strong opinions on things too much and will listen to whichever maintainer argues hardest or is more senior.
I'm the longest consecutive maintainer still working, and I have no more power than any of the rest of them.
This is how it's always been, and it's fine.
oranges wrote:That page does not show all users becaue they can choose to show their affiliation or not with the org.
Realistically there is no fixed Heirarchy, any disagreements between maintainers are usually worked out through a chat and or an appeal to Kor or Cheridan to make a final decision, you can tell when this happens because your pr will sit there for several weeks or more, everyone else is roughly equal and we just avoid stepping on each others toes too much wherever there is an issue. Generally Cheridan and Kor don't hold strong opinions on things too much and will listen to whichever maintainer argues hardest or is more senior.
I don't know how you can give that summary and in the same breath criticize an attempt to change to a system that doesn't result in a maintainers and authors wasting their time "for several weeks or more". Either Kor needs to strap on the jackboots and accept that he's the de-facto tyrant of our codebase or he needs to make it clear that lower level maintainers have autonomy and can call their own shots. Right now he's playing both roles and its a clusterfuck. In one moment Kor states that all he wants to see if a single maintainer support my PR, very explicitly, very clear instructions. With very little effort I have found two, but then within 48 hours he turns around and straps on the jackboots and decides that one or two maintainers aren't enough and kills the PR even though he himself still doesn't have any strong negative feelings about it. Thus the cycle continues where the maintainer who publicly supported me gets humiliated, I waste my time, and Coderbus gets one more lesson in "never try to merge a big feature without explicit decision from Kor, who hates having to make explicit decisions and will avoid doing so in most cases".
There's no way that anyone can read the above paragraph and say "Nope, there's no way we can improve on that". Kor must perpetually exist as our Schrodinger's Cat in a tortured state of split-existence and every big PR represents a fucking gala held in honor of the cat not being dead.
I'm not sure how people aren't able to see that. It happened even in my umbrage PR. He asked for maintainer approval, zero maintainers responded for God knows why, and he gave an ultimatum that ultimately proved invalid when a maintainer finally took action, this causing a huge amount of drama because nobody believed that any maintainers had the spine to do something.
This isn't going to get better unless the senior maintainers accept it as a problem. And because they mostly all want to stay in power, nothing is ever going to change.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay
wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity
ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.
CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.
wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay
IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.
wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL
One is the original PR, which was a bad idea (for reasons already expressed) and right to be closed.
The other is the general sentiment of "lol forum posts don't matter" and "lol players don't matter" and "lol it's Robustin" at the expense of transparency. Because he isn't wrong about that. Just because this is a volunteer job does not mean it has to be run by shitposting and drama.
Basically:
I am going to preface this by saying that I dont like the idea, at all. There has to be a less ham-fisted way to incentivise engineering work and make the department more fun.
However I do think that if our maintainers never had any intention of merging Robustin's idea they probably should have been upfront about that rather than offering any sort of suggestion
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro
nobody believed that any maintainers had the spine to do something.
So you thought you could ignore my posts telling you not to do something for months, and got really upset when I did exactly what I told you I was going to do? After which you refused to compromise at all and tried to start a coup against coderbus, resulting in your PR being closed, and this is somehow evidence of dysfunction in the process and the ultimatum being "invalid"?
Coderbus and maintainers are not perfect and never will be but it functions remarkably well given the workload, and the majority of contributors don't seem to have the problems you are having.
No. What has been said in the subject has already been spoken. But you asked for maintainer thoughts and received none. Regardless of either of our stances, that is a problem. Now let's keep old coals untouched. This thread is only marginally related and I was citing it as an example, which is perfectly valid. I have moved on. Let it rest.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay
wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity
ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.
CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.
wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay
IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.
wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL
bandit wrote:To be fair about half of those PRs are bugfixes
They still take time and effort from maintainers to review, leaving us with less time to endlessly humour people who can't take "no" or "change this" for an answer. Do you think robots do it?
Kor you can try to turn a wheel by licking it, it would be gross and mind numbing and horrible inefficient but you could still marvel that the wheel turns hundreds of times a month. My PR alone consumed hours of coder/maintainer review time and duplication of efforts because the atomization call went out about 2 weeks too late and/or wasted on many of the reviewed items you never intended to let merge in the first place. I don't know what to expect from you Kor but it really seems like you would support more maintainer autonomy, but the actions youve taken have only rolled them in tighter to your authority.
My personal bias is that big features have kept me playing this game well beyond what even AAA titles can do. Even our failed game modes were still a positive thing for me because they shook things up. Engineering is SS13's greatest tragedy, a dept. with the deepest mechanics is also the dept. with the most incentive to ignore those mechanics completely. Engineering needs a new feature, it deserves a new feature. I was never married to the point system but at the same time this excuse of "well your system may be better than all the ones preceding it, but even that's not good enough to merit testing" feels like a bullshit excuse compared to maintainer-sponsored features which typically go "Well this will probably be terrible, but hell, lets give it a shot!".
Ok, as per oranges request, here is what I have for machines:
The power exporter, atmos market, and the alarm bonus system will keep many of the original mechanics but will have more flexibility to reflect the new system. The power exporter will directly channel power to these new machines, the exporter will be used to determine which of the new machines get power and how much power they get. However, each machines has varying tolerance for directly channeled power. While small amounts of energy will be transmitted at nearly 100% efficiency, larger quantities will drop in efficiency. Some machines are "thirstier" than others so engineers will have to carefully manage power distribution to reflect their priorities but while minimizing waste. The tolerances will decrease efficiency slowly so there's no "magic number" for optimal use - it all depends on how much of an emphasis engineering wants to put on a particular device. The atmos market and alarm bonus will also offer power boosts, but these boosts will always occur at 100% efficiency. So while it makes sense to use these boosts on a machine thats already experiencing big efficiency drops, it can also make sense for engineers to save them so they can have flexibility to fire up another machine or complete a production on short notice.
The energy fabricator will always exist by default, but every other machine will be available through a crate-like device called the Engineering Autoconstruction Module. Engineers will have 1-2 of these modules available at roundstart. Additional modules can be constructed at the fabricator. When activated the modules will offer a selection of machines, and upon selection the module will rapidly build out into the machine. The machines are:
1) Ship beacon/gateway (whichever I can find a better sprite for): Must be set up in an appropriate LZ for the engineering ship (space). Once fully charged the engineering support ship will be called to that location. This will not only require getting a wired platform into a clear segment of space, but it has an additional mechanic that utilizes emitter beams to enhance the signal/stabilize the gateway. Emitter beams will multiply the effect of energy used to charge the machine, i.e. 4 emitters will quadruple the rate that energy charges the beacon. Engineering will have to weigh how how many emitters are better used for the engine versus used to empower the beacon/gateway.
2) Vehicle factory. This factory will produce the specialized engineering/atmos repair speeders. The factory itself doesn't receive any power, but rather its paired with a Factory Fuel Generator that produces specially designed cubes of powered metal that the factory shapes into the final product. The factory fuel cubes (still need a name for these) are forged using power channeled to the machine. The rate of cube production depends on the amount channeled. These cubes are somewhat volatile however, and the wavelength of the energy stored within can change rapidly following their production. Given the complexity of the prototype vehicles, each stage of production will "prefer" cubes of a certain wavelength. The factory is programmed to simplify these calculations down to a single measure: the amount of time passed since the cube was produced. For every second that a cube is "off" its goal, it will still be absorbed, but at a less than optimal rate. During production the factory will require cubes of different wavelengths. So a production might start with a 40 second requirement and then shift to a 25 second requirement, and then finish with a 15 second requirement.
The ultimate design is that the generator will produce cubes pretty often (depending on its power input) and hand delivery would be woefully inefficient. Instead the generator will "roll out" the cubes onto an adjacent tile where it is expected that atmospherics will have set up a disposal system that can deliver the cubes to the factory around the target time. If atmos just sets up the factory right next to the generator, it will progress at a small fraction of what a properly designed disposal system would achieve. Atmos nerds who want to optimize production should design systems that can rapidly adjust the total travel time to the factory. Stored energy from the alarm bonus or canister exports can be directed to the generator once it hits an optimal time to produce dozens of cubes at maximum efficiency, potentially even an instant production if sufficient power is used with a flawlessly timed disposal track.
3) Nanoweave device. This versatile machine will accept a vast variety of items to upgrade. Tools are upgraded (crowbar becomes jaws of life, etc.), RCD's become advanced (ranged) RCD's, Bulb replacers become Rapid Lighting Devices (seriously get these), hardsuits will be upgraded to lose their slowdown or gain an internal jetpack slot, also most clothing can be inserted to become "hardened" for slightly higher armor values, sharp objects can be sharpened, magboots will be made advanced, and much more! This machine is not instant though and requires a significant amount of power to operate, naturally more power will result in faster operation.
4) Cargo Shuttle Bluespace Manipulator. Want to instantly gain friends in cargo? While active this machine allows for almost instant cargo shuttle travel, good for convincing cargo to buy you more emitters or radiation collectors.
5) Hypercloner. RIP Hypercloner. This is so much easier when we just spend an hour talking first. I would make an alternative pitch The Cryochamber. Think advanced cryopod instead of advanced cloner. I'm only pushing it because I really love Goon's cryochamber icon/animations.
6) Robotics factory. Want to gain friends in science? Offer give them a robotics factory. This device puts even an upgraded robotics fabricators to shame. This machine takes power in tiers. A high power requirement would allow for nearly instant production of parts. An ultra high requirement would produce robotics "templates" with most of the work done minus the boards/wires/etc., and a MAX requirement would allow for rapidly completely borgs and mechs in a finished state. Material requirements still apply.
7)The Fabricator. This is the "foundational" new engineering machine. It will allow for the production of many of the items from the previous system, it will create autoconstruction module for the other machines listed above, and will generally serve a versatile source of new equipment. However the construction times for this machine heavily depend on its power input. A low amount of power could result in even modest items like the prototype canister or dance machine could end up taking over 30 minutes to produce, a high level of energy will be required to construct items in a more convenient period of time.
All in all this system will make utilizing spare power just as, if not more, complicated than even generating it in the first place. There is no vendor and there is no "banking" of power from the power exporter, use it or lose it - this means active management of the system will be required if engineering doesn't want to waste its power.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Xhuis wrote:I'm not sure how people aren't able to see that. It happened even in my umbrage PR. He asked for maintainer approval, zero maintainers responded for God knows why, and he gave an ultimatum that ultimately proved invalid when a maintainer finally took action, this causing a huge amount of drama because nobody believed that any maintainers had the spine to do something.
This isn't going to get better unless the senior maintainers accept it as a problem. And because they mostly all want to stay in power, nothing is ever going to change.
I was going to follow Kor's ultimatum, but you shitposted and insulted Kor so I stamped on your head and I will do it to anyone else who wants to talk back to the design lead without mercy so from my opinion it's not a problem.
Xhuis wrote:I'm not sure how people aren't able to see that. It happened even in my umbrage PR. He asked for maintainer approval, zero maintainers responded for God knows why, and he gave an ultimatum that ultimately proved invalid when a maintainer finally took action, this causing a huge amount of drama because nobody believed that any maintainers had the spine to do something.
This isn't going to get better unless the senior maintainers accept it as a problem. And because they mostly all want to stay in power, nothing is ever going to change.
I was going to follow Kor's ultimatum, but you shitposted and insulted Kor so I stamped on your head and I will do it to anyone else who wants to talk back to the design lead without mercy so from my opinion it's not a problem.
I don't think that arguing for my own case is shitposting. I was abrasive to Kor, but the behavior of other people towards other maintainers makes it seem as though it's okay. I had 48 hours to try to sway him, and I was going to make the most of it. Debate is a different thing from insulting, and it doesn't seem logical that talking back should result in punishment. If someone controls all the PRs that get in and any dissenters are silenced without mercy, than why bother coding at all unless you clear it up with the design lead - or design dictator, in this case? I'm sorry that you think that using the time I was granted to argue my case is a bad thing, but I stand by it.
But I don't want to derail the thread. If you'd like to talk about this further, oranges, send me a forum message.
I'm an ex-coder for /tg/. I made the original versions of clockcult, shadowlings, revenants, His Grace, and other stuff.
I don't play, code, or participate in the community, but I occasionally post dumb stuff in the hut.
Kraso wrote:hi gay
wubli wrote:xhuis you said you were feeling better but every thread you make makes me worry more about your sanity
ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone wrote:Sorry I was making fun of xhuis' """""compromise""""" who insisted that was the correct term to use.
CitrusGender wrote:We've ended up disabling clockcult on sybil and bagil now (terry is having some problems.) We will give Xhuis some time until he wishes to work upon it again. As of now, please use this thread for ideas and not for bickering.
wubli wrote:you are a cultist of the gay
IkeTG wrote:It's a reflection of humanity, like all of man's creation. You cannot divorce this act from yourself, in a way there's a big titty moth inside all of us.
wesoda25 wrote:yeah no one was curious what it was from. Imagine choosing being a degenerate as your forum gimmick, LOL
Sounds fine, will likely get in if made in it's own pr
Oldman Robustin wrote: 2) Vehicle factory
Joan really liked it, this one has good feedback, in it's own pr too will get through without hassle I would imagine, people may complain if the vehicles are too strong so keep that in mind and they may get nerfed.
Oldman Robustin wrote:3) Nanoweave device
People were not sold on this, what sort of list of upgrades do you envision and what items will it accept
Seems non offensive in it's own pr as well and I like that it promotes supporting another department
Oldman Robustin wrote:5) Hypercloner.
Non negotiable no, we're trying to reduce dependence on cloning, making a fast version does not fit that goal.
Oldman Robustin wrote:6) Robotics factory.
Seems like a decent idea, will likely make it in, again it's own PR
Oldman Robustin wrote:7)The Fabricator.
Needs to be first pr obviously, explain more what you mean by source of "regular items" we don't need more things replacing cargo or RnD existing functionality that is shipped in.
However, the problem is that all this drama and arguing has kor understandably stressed, as such, none of this will be pr'ed before the freeze ends, this gives everyone some time to cool off.
From your existing pr's the Dance Machine and emitters can be merged as admin spawn items at this time.
The lesson here is that kor makes for a poor tyrant because he cares what people think about him, and oranges makes for a poor one because he doesn't.
If you are going to be a tyrant that cares what people think (and you should) you have to be able to be dispassionate enough to see thru the criticism well enough you can create constructive criticism out of vapid screaming. Understand how to differentiate between genuine criticism of your person, and criticism of your actions disguised as criticism of your person, and above all else, lie to yourself about the two so that you can pretend all criticism is criticism of your actions, and all praise is praise of your person.
Its how I get thru the day.
Forum/Wiki Administrator, Server host, Database King, Master Coder
MrStonedOne on digg(banned), Steam, IRC, Skype Discord. (!vAKvpFcksg)
RIP Hypercloner, I spitballed an alternative but the only reason I'm pitching it is because I love the icon.
As for the fabricator it would have most of the leftovers from the old reward list. Prototype canister (already merged), the power tools, probably the ranged RCD/RLD (the nanoweaver would be a faster alternative if you can provide the base item), backup hardsuits, prototype emitter, metal, glass, insulated gloves, the portable force-field projector, the dance machine, and I'll probably try to push the construction nuke again since I think it was an unfair casualty that only 2 people were opposed to. The nuke could cut the harmful choices, or get re-themed into a power-based device that would slowly spread the tile changes similar to what the ark does. The nuke really holds a special place for me because its the kind of ridiculous silly stuff that you won't see in the vast majority of rounds but when you do it can be a fun time all around. Aside from nerds like Kevinz screeching about MUH FLOORTILE PREFERENCES. I'd like to add more of the stuff we see in tool storage, machine boards, parts, part of me wants to carve back some of RND's vast territory and make engineering the premier department for machines while the RND circuitprinter focuses on computers... but that's a decision that will have to come later. Also capsules that can be programmed to deploy a specific machine (i.e. autolathe, sleeper, vending, APC, floodlight, and recycler), and engi dufflebags that don't have the slowdown. If I have time I've been considering a cable laying tool but I worry that I'd spend more time coding it than people would actually end up using it.
My first vision of the nanoweave was that I didn't want it to be obtuse, I didn't want to force engineers to sit there trying to shove their shit in only to have 90% of it get rejected and its basically left to people who read a wiki or code to know what it can actually do. So my vision was to let it accept almost anything, although some upgrades would be better than others. Upgrading the RCD/light replacer/hardsuits/tools would be some of the most valuable improvements. I also have quite a few unused sprites so upgrades could also entail unique clothing options. I have a couple ideas for hardhat upgrades too, maybe one unique action for each, firefighter hat would have a limited nanoice cloud and engineering hardhat would have dropdown welding goggles, or perhaps both hats would have toggle-able gas masks (think similar to the hardsuit effect). Almost anything else would be subject to a small +5 armor or +sharpening effect, items with power cells could gain a greater capacity, etc.
Oldman Robustin wrote:RIP Hypercloner, I spitballed an alternative but the only reason I'm pitching it is because I love the icon.
As for the fabricator it would have most of the leftovers from the old reward list.
Prototype canister (already merged),
the power tools,
probably the ranged RCD/RLD
backup hardsuits,
prototype emitter,
metal, glass, insulated gloves, (not fine, replacing existing cargo functionality for basic items, these will get denied)
the portable force-field projector,
the dance machine,
construction nuke (denied once, don't bother bringing it back)
I'd like to add more of the stuff we see in tool storage, machine boards, parts (aren't these all cargo territory, anyway this is more arguable?)
Also capsules that can be programmed to deploy a specific machine (very unlikely to be allowed, I dont' like the idea of capsules that just deploy a whole machine)
and engi dufflebags that don't have the slowdown.(Cheridan will likely not like this due to storage power creep)
Oldman Robustin wrote:
My first vision of the nanoweave was that I didn't want it to be obtuse, I didn't want to force engineers to sit there trying to shove their shit in only to have 90% of it get rejected and its basically left to people who read a wiki or code to know what it can actually do. So my vision was to let it accept almost anything, although some upgrades would be better than others. Upgrading the RCD/light replacer/hardsuits/tools would be some of the most valuable improvements. I also have quite a few unused sprites so upgrades could also entail unique clothing options. I have a couple ideas for hardhat upgrades too, maybe one unique action for each, firefighter hat would have a limited nanoice cloud and engineering hardhat would have dropdown welding goggles, or perhaps both hats would have toggle-able gas masks (think similar to the hardsuit effect). Almost anything else would be subject to a small +5 armor or +sharpening effect, items with power cells could gain a greater capacity, etc.
The way you pitch this it's just the fabricator but slightly different in that it takes in existing items? I don’t' see the difference or the point. Also lots of these would basically require their own pr's to add, so you need to aim way smaller there.
Swarge. Tell me, if some traitor or someone else goes ahead and spaces, or destroys, or looses all the engineering hardsuits, what is the non-easy way to get an ENGINEERING hardsuit? (Rad protection)
I guess you would have to improvise. Get a softsuit and pump yourself with anti-radation chems, get a radsuit and pump yourself with spacewalk chems, or at the very least internals and coffee, try to work quickly and minimize your exposure. Trick the clown into running into the hotzone for you. Back yourself up in cloning and heroically sacrifice yourself.
This game thrives on adversity and easy access to hard counters means that no one ever has to get creative
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3
certified good poster
captain sawrge wrote:please don't add an easy way for more hardsuits to be obtained
I think its a perfectly fair system for people who stick around and do work to have access to the gear that Traitor McArmoryRobber ran off with at roundstart.
@oranges
I dont care enough about any of those cargo concerns to fight you on it but I feel like its a little absurd that Kor is contemplating a replacement for cargo while you want to keep other department's quality of life hooked up to it. It's never a replacement for cargo if you can ask cargo to order it at no personal cost whereas building it here would mean forgoing something else. Plus the whole "some maps literally dont have enough gloves for engineers" is a bad meme.
Cargos been largely unchanged for years and if there's any hypothesis thats ever been so soundly defeated its "Will Cargo work to the benefit of any other department on a regular basis?"
There's a reason the fucking ORM doesn't even require people to interact with cargo now. I'm also not a fan of "Cargo can become a better supplied version of engineering 60 seconds into the round" meme.
oranges wrote:Oldman, I want to see if we can fix Cargo with a better system that works per department before we completely turn it obsolete.
Best of luck.
If coding didn't take me 500% longer than an actual coder there are plenty of easy improvements. Cargo has dozens of low hanging fruit ripe for picking. I just felt engineering needed love since cargo can at least fill the hole in their heart with shotguns and ATV's.
Off the top of my head: Gut cargo's export income. The current "credit" system should function more like a budget. Every time that cargo fulfills an order they get their budget expanded by a function of the order's value and the number of orders that have been shipped thus far. The # of orders value wouldn't reflect the flat number of orders, but rather would be weighed depending on how many unique individuals had their orders fulfilled. The weighting increase itself would be weighted so that there isn't an incentive to game the system by filling a bunch of cheap orders. Weights for people who haven't ordered before and for departments that haven't ordered before are significantly higher, but not so significant that cargo has an incentive to game the system (i.e. the time wasted trying to get new "signers" wouldn't be worth the slight increase in budget). Orders made for supply personnel would have little to no increase on weighting.
Budget would be filled once every "cycle", with cycle being however long it takes to keep income balanced. You can still ship minerals for a one-time boost to budget but it would be like 10,000 for 50 plasma sheets, not 100,000. Maybe introduce a third export category for later game where you can take on a "fulfillment request" on behalf of Centcom (that would require a significant deposit), and you'd get shipped some object with a peculiar time-limited task.
Agreed, my plan is actually for cargo to not get budget for other peoples stuff, shipping mats/atmos canisters/power batteries/RnD design disks would give budget to those departments instead of just a station wide budget, plus department related items can be ordered from department consoles.
Cargo would send crates to each appropriate department and get credit for crates that make it to the appropriate area (haven't scoped this out fully, possibly it would require the requesting department to scan it, or just that the crate be moved into the area that is associated with that department), then my plan was to extend cargo area to have three or more shuttle landing spots, idea being that cargo has to organise crates between multiple shuttles and ensure everything goes to the right direction (generic crates that are not openable, just routable), the lore behind that being that the station was the largest NT structure in the area and therefore feeds outlying small stations/outposts with items and equipment from centcom. This would essentially just be a timed minigame that could be improved by laying down conveyor systems and sorters.
More long term I would want to extend the shuttle packaging minigame with crates requiring special handling etc, or having timed orders that the station must fufil to get points for all associated departments (i.e chef is required to cook a certain set of meals and stack them in crate), most of that is stuff I haven't scoped.
Cargo can order equipment from all departments with their budget like they can now.
Stocks would likely bite the bullet as I can't think of a way to make them very interesting.
My hopes are to replace crates and exports with purchasing of individual items and giving it a pseudo supply and demand, along with Oranges idea of giving departments their own "bank account" to work with.
I can't help but laugh if each dept. gets its own account, own way to add to that accounts, and pretty soon oran "fuck points" ges has every dept. operating on a points system.
I'll support departmental budgets if the HOP can revoke everyone's budgets, print out a money throne, and hide behind a barricade of other people's space cash when security burst down the door to beat him to death for grand larceny
kieth4 wrote:
infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am
Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
Instead of points being a "set up power and go afk" thing, give points for dealing with the random events. Powernet shut off? Points for every APC reset. Anomaly? Points for getting rid of it.
Lazengann wrote:Instead of points being a "set up power and go afk" thing, give points for dealing with the random events. Powernet shut off? Points for every APC reset. Anomaly? Points for getting rid of it.
Anomalies are science's concern. And you could farm them with the SM.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If Engineering was sent out to hunt anomalies in exchange of points, anything that can be gained by farming the SM would be mitigated by the huge risk involved in even trying to do so.
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
My plan has 3 main objectives but there were several unwritten ones like:
- Don't incentivize engineers to blow up the station
- Make the tasks either useful for the station or independently interesting, anything that isn't either should be changed (I use genetics as a minimum threshold here, at the very least it may not be super fun but there's enough critical thinking involved in planning/adapting that it's not mind numbing)
- The system should utilize existing mechanics: disposal piping, air mixing, engine and power optimization are all good examples - farming anomalies is not
Also with the proper equipment farming SM anomalies is not difficult, or challenging, or even interesting
ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:My hopes are to replace crates and exports with purchasing of individual items and giving it a pseudo supply and demand, along with Oranges idea of giving departments their own "bank account" to work with.
We strongly considered something like this a long time ago but it got met with the usual "economy reeeeee" response. I fully support budgets and adding money in a useful way, especially with some useful interaction with cargo, but I don't know that you'll get it past the players.
