Robustin's vain 2017 attempt to improve Coderbus for all

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:49 pm #276963

Bottom post of the previous page:

cedarbridge wrote:
oranges wrote:
Qbopper wrote:unrelated: dude look I know you get harassed for this all the time but did you not have an English teacher that taught you how to be concise? So many of your points can be distilled to much shorter paragraphs and sentences, it's resulting in people not reading your posts and dismissing you because lol essays ecks dee
He's a lawyer they can't help it they have to be explicit in legal contracts, every lawyer I've met types like that, I honestly suspect fwoosh or oxford are too.

Back on topic: anyone who thinks getting stuff merged isn't a social game is going to eat shit all day long, you do have to suck up to the maintainers, you do have to listen to what they say and do it, you do have to get them to back you up, if a maintainer doesn't like you they can make your day very hard and if you tick them off enough will be very very very hard to undo the mess you end up in, especially if you alienate all of them.
I'm in the same profession. Completeness is not the opposite of being concise.

Cedar makes my point for me, just because legal documents might often feature longwinded text doesn't mean you can't be concise otherwise

This is mostly off topic though and I doubt robustin is willing to listen to any feedback on it because of the meme status it's reached where everyone posts about ecks dee essays, so we should probably not have this conversation here

Oldman Robustin · Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:35 pm

I type at length because my adversarial stance means people will fill in any blank I leave with some strawman to derail things with.

Also because I wanted this to be a sincere suggestion and not just a "fuck the system" thread, so details are helpful.

Alternatively I could've just proposed that all Kor comments on non-maintainer PR's get a massive oversized tag that appears whenever the comment doesn't start with "I like this" or "This is a good idea" and the tag reads:

ATTENTION: KOR HAS EXPRESSED AMBIVALENCE AND/OR NEGATIVITY TO YOUR IDEA. YOUR PR WILL NOW STALL AND BE CLOSED WITH NO WARNING IN 2 WEEKS. CONTACT YOUR NEAREST KOR IMMEDIATELY OR CLOSE THIS PR TO SPARE YOURSELF.

Cheridan is the only person who can remove the tag.

Haevacht · Post by **Haevacht** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:37 pm #276981

Oldman Robustin wrote:I type at length because my adversarial stance means people will fill in any blank I leave with some strawman to derail things with.

Also because I wanted this to be a sincere suggestion and not just a "fuck the system" thread, so details are helpful.

Alternatively I could've just proposed that all Kor comments on non-maintainer PR's get a massive oversized tag that appears whenever the comment doesn't start with "I like this" or "This is a good idea" and the tag reads:

ATTENTION: KOR HAS EXPRESSED AMBIVALENCE AND/OR NEGATIVITY TO YOUR IDEA. YOUR PR WILL NOW STALL AND BE CLOSED WITH NO WARNING IN 2 WEEKS. CONTACT YOUR NEAREST KOR IMMEDIATELY OR CLOSE THIS PR TO SPARE YOURSELF.

Cheridan is the only person who can remove the tag.

Back to your salty, unreasonable self again, I mean good for you, bad for us. Us being me.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:18 pm #276990

Oldman Robustin wrote:I type at length because my adversarial stance means people will fill in any blank I leave with some strawman to derail things with.

It's causing people to ignore your long paragraphs and talk shit about you, derailing things anyways

Also because I wanted this to be a sincere suggestion and not just a "fuck the system" thread, so details are helpful.

Which is reasonable but you tend to include replies to multiple posts in one post, turning it into something longer than it needs to be

Alternatively I could've just proposed that all Kor comments on non-maintainer PR's get a massive oversized tag that appears whenever the comment doesn't start with "I like this" or "This is a good idea" and the tag reads:

ATTENTION: KOR HAS EXPRESSED AMBIVALENCE AND/OR NEGATIVITY TO YOUR IDEA. YOUR PR WILL NOW STALL AND BE CLOSED WITH NO WARNING IN 2 WEEKS. CONTACT YOUR NEAREST KOR IMMEDIATELY OR CLOSE THIS PR TO SPARE YOURSELF.

Cheridan is the only person who can remove the tag.

You JUST SAID this wasn't a "fuck the system" thread

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:49 am #277258

*gavel smack*

Oldman Robustin · Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:49 am

Qbopper the proposal is in the OP, and ill respond seriously to anyone who wants to discuss it.

Concept at its core is not hard to grasp, all the other stuff is just there to make the core concept work. Coderbus leadership needs to firmly define what kind of autonomy maintainers have. In my experience my proposal is a good fit because it runs itself almost automatically, nobody has to worry about stepping on each other's toes, and Coderbus leadership can still control the direction of code by limit the area of review for maintainers that repeatedly exhibit bad judgment in the eyes of said leadership. The most important aspect of my proposal is that when the assigned maintainer shows up in a PR, everyone immediately knows who the authority is and author + maintainer can stake out a path to merging or closing immediately. There's no more running to IRC to beg for someone else to intervene, if your PR didn't get love in 48 hours then tough titties you can always appeal, maintainers can additional clarity as well. There is no more looking through older PR's wondering "is someone taking care of this?" - Areas of responsibility will always be clearly defined.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:21 am #277281

Spell it with me folks
A proposal made with salt
Under
The rediculous
Idea that
Single volunteers will do
Mandatory work on the codebase for free

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:22 am #277301

>robustin is still doing this like 5 years later

Post by **oranges** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:36 am #277312

rare as fuck

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:14 pm #277333

Single volunteers already do work on the codebase. I was under the assumption that you knew what a maintainer was. Our system works right now, but a maintainer's personal bias should not get in the way of something beneficial or with a majority of people supporting it, and I am of the firm belief that a little bit of extra conduct enforced is nothing but a step forward.

Of course, seeing this thread, it won't happen. An example is already clear. Robustin sees an issue and wants to talk about it. Instead people give him shit, and he gets frustrated and starts contradicting himself. The core gripe behind the post is glaringly obvious, and it's time we acknowledge it instead of pretending that nothing is wrong.

I don't think that the idea is, as was eloquently stated, "rediculous." Speaking as one who had coded for going on three years with no lack of experience to speak of, I would very happily become a maintainer under the code of conduct being proposed here. I have little free time but I would be quite content spending much of it on this cause that holds its grounds in a legitimate complaint.

Remie Richards · Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:29 pm

Xhuis, the keyword was "Mandatory", we do WORK on the codebase, but we do not do MANDATORY WORK on the codebase.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:46 pm #277341

I probably have a different view of mandatory in this case. A maintainer should be required to do the work they volunteer for, else they hold nothing but an empty title. I'm not saying that they should merge ten PRs a month OR ELSE, of course. But I do think that if you pledge yourself as a maintainer that you should be held accountable for regulating the codebase. A maintainer that does not maintain is not deserving of their title and should be removed.

There will always be a catch, of course. Something might come up or you might take a break. That's fine too, but is something better negotiated on an individual level so you aren't demoted for suddenly vanishing without a word.

onleavedontatme · Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Xhuis Contributor
This whole block was taken from the Repulse code, so this and the weird var names both come from that.
@KorPhaeron

KorPhaeron Member
Please don't "take" code from other places you know better by now
@Xhuis

Xhuis Contributor
Evidently not. I wanted an identical effect, so why rewrite code that already existed? No need to reinvent the wheel.

That said, there are improvements coming to this code in the near future.

I know I'm the least technically capable member of the team so I realize this is highly ironic coming from me, but if "don't copypaste" is something you didn't understand after three years it really doesn't matter how long you've been coding when it comes to being able to review things.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:24 pm #277363

My own capabilities are irrelevant. I was simply providing personal input on how I feel I would operate under the conditions outlined in the OP.

I also mentioned that improvement would be coming, so the argument you provided is invalid in the first place. I would likely have made a generic "shockwave" proc, and added in some arguments for modular strength. I never got the chance in the end, but I do not go back on my promises unless circumstances demand otherwise. If you would like, I can make that proc as soon as I get home.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:31 pm

> Offer system that is no more or less mandatory than the current system

> MANDATORY WORK REEEEEEE

Where the hell are you guys getting this? There's literally LESS work under this system. Stuff only becomes "mandatory" once you assign yourself to a PR but that step itself is purely VOLUNTARY. Don't want to review a PR? DONT ASSIGN YOURSELF.

48 hours until an opponent can close the PR. You can pick at 4-5 day window for automatic closure if nobody wants to touch it at all.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:41 pm #277369

That will lead to a filibuster of sorts, where when bias is strictly enforced from influencing decisions, no maintainer will ever touch the PR, inevitably leading to its death. To paraphrase the Miranda rights, if a PR cannot acquire a maintainer, one should be appointed - preferably one who has shown warmth to that PR somehow or who has proven to be worth their salt as an unbiased and fair maintainer.

TheColdTurtle · Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:44 pm

Hi there Mrs. Phaeron, I'm from the ACLU, or the American Coderbus Liberties Union, and I'm here to ask you about how you knowingly deprived these contributors of their rights?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:00 pm #277396

He doesn't have to say that, he has the right to remain silent.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:39 pm #277588

They dont' deserve rights lol

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:37 am #277669

TheColdTurtle wrote:Hi there Mrs. Phaeron, I'm from the ACLU, or the American Coderbus Liberties Union, and I'm here to ask you about how you knowingly deprived these contributors of their rights?

>Mrs. Phaeron

It's MISS Phaeron

not MRS

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:51 am #277673

can someone bring me up to speed with what thing prompted this? it's usually one catastrophic, 500 comment PR or someone having to fix merge conflicts for 2 months that prompts this kind of thing

Post by **oranges** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:20 am #277681

Robustin made a pr that had a vendor tha tturned power into points like the mining vendor with a bunch of meme items to get.

then I told him it was garbage straight away but I didnt' close it because I had been demaintainered recently for fake merging patting

So it sat for a long time, then he got told to atomize it so he did

so it sat for a long time again and then joan closed his pr's

and then I stepped in again

Post by **oranges** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:34 am #277687

actually it might have been the time I was demaintainered for irc banning cheri from coderbus

one of them anyway

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:37 am #277840

If you wanna make engineering fun remove the garbage singularity I/O power mechanic that is not fun and instead add power rationing so turning off the lights actually matters but hey whatever that requires engineers to be more than greyshirts with tools

Oldman Robustin · Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:11 pm

paprika wrote:If you wanna make engineering fun remove the garbage singularity I/O power mechanic that is not fun and instead add power rationing so turning off the lights actually matters but hey whatever that requires engineers to be more than greyshirts with tools

Its not the worst idea but its not a solution either. Making engineer's job harder, making it more likely that people get pissed off at engineering, making it more likely that lowpop rounds get fucked by low power... none of that makes engineering more fun and the lies with 3 core problems:

1) Atmos literally has no purpose. AI and science are better at cleaning air anyway. Its so bad that when I say "I want to improve engineering" people seem to forget that atmos is even a part of that conversation.

2) Engineer has the least stake in its own duties, "Engineer sets up power too!" is a pretty bad meme, of all the depts that suffer when power isn't set up properly, engineering gives the least fucks. They will be the last to lose power, even when they lose power they don't lose much except atmos who can't really control power anyway, and so the only reason they even set it up is because its extremely easy and not worth getting hassled all round over.

3) Once that 60 second engine setup is done, engineering has 0 way to achieve any kind of progress or advancement. The station comes with every room necessary and so further construction is almost purely aesthetic. At best they are reacting to keep the station intact but they have no unique tools for that and since they don't have any direct or indirect benefit to keeping the station running for as long as possible, you get the current results: It's become a dept. that exists for rolling antag or playing greytide who want all the necessary tider tools handed to them at roundstart.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:35 pm #278062

This is kind of getting off topic since this topic was originally on your attempt to improve the power structure within coderbus but I have to say that you should focus on adding more features that engineering can do (make construction less of a joke) than trying to change the current situation within engineering as far as power and atmos is concerned. The problem is there's nothing really cool that engineering can construct while they're waiting for shit to blow up. Autismforts in space, or adding to empty rooms gets old really fast. Find cool things for engineering to do that isn't a hamster-on-wheel grind to get points for cool toys (this only solved the problem with mining being boring for like a month) and stop the power creep.

Atmos is total shit because if you introduce 'problems' that require atmospherics beyond breaches and people fucking with atmos, you get into 'hassle' zone where someone goes WTF I CAN'T BREATHE IN HERE I HATE X CODER FOR MAKING THE GAME HARDER when the reality is a space station's life support is one of if not the most important thing.

Currently the structure of 'important shit' on space station 13 is:
door access
controlling guns that can stun
cloning
singulo

Ironic that this game was built on simulating the complexities of atmospherics when it's something you can't see despite your character ALWAYS interacting with it.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:33 am #278127

oranges wrote:This wont' work because we're not paying the maintainers so they're not required to review a pr if they dont' want to, they only review things they want to and they don't have to put any more effort in than they want.

Your idea is dead out of the gate, it's also absurdly stupid in terms of the level of overhead and pointless democracy, but it looks like you already knew that based on your title and just wanted to get something of your chest.

your problem is you show up without building any trust from maintainers, with a giant ass pr, asking questions about code that make it seem like you're barely capable of understanding what you're doing and then whine when nobody shows up to review it even though it's a monstrous amount of code of dubious quality

The right way to do that is to make small changes, build up trust with a maintainer or two, be present in coderbus and then when you have a proven track record you can make big feature pr's and get them through the gate without too much drama.

This right here I think is the core issue of this whole thing, you have no street cred in the bus and you pull out a thousands lines of code PR out of nowhere and expect it to fly. The effort and initiative is admirable, the lack of common sense is not. Had you not tried to reach beyond your grasp you would have not come up with a controversial idea like revolutionizing the Engineering department with yet another points system.

On the other hand, you should not have been told to alter your PR by people who had no intention of merging it anyways, that's just shit. You are right in being frustrated at this and I hope everyone involved learns from this drama.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:49 am

Except I opened with like 200 lines of code and the only comments I got were about the shitty placeholder rewards plus Kors "its good and bad" design comment.

Then I coded the rewards, so I got told to atomize. Then I atomized and thousands of lines, hundreds of hours, 10 PR's, and a month since opening and I finally get told "yea we were never going to merge it in the first place".

Also if 100 PR's, almost all oriented around features and balance, without a single bad change, hasn't gotten me "street rep" - I doubt anything will.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:17 am #278145

and hasn't kor/etc. apologized for not making it more than 10000% clear that when they said "this probably won't get merged" they weren't joking

what's the issue here, if people have learned from their mistakes why does this proposal need to exist

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:17 am #278146

One line changes even if good doesn't necessarily get you much reputation.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:21 am #278149

kevinz000 wrote:One line changes even if good doesn't necessarily get you much reputation.

and let's be completely honest

after this debacle what maintainer is ever going to want to touch anything robustin does ever again

Oldman Robustin · Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:10 am

They should want to touch it more because holy shit if you just ignore it, its not going to go away.

Kor never said "this won't get merged", I approached him at least 3 times directly asking if I should bother continuing work and either I would get no response or modest reassurance. Kor has also never directly apologized to me for anything - it's not a big deal but don't try to use that against me if its not true. This is not a one-time event and it won't be the last time as long as the current structure is in place. Last I checked me and Xhuis were the last 2 non-maintainers doing big picture projects and I dont think its a coincidence that we're both highly disgruntled with the system.

Kevinz my one-line changes still had more of an impact on gameplay than a 4,000 line to_chat refactor or something. The whole point is "Does this PR author have a good sense for healthy gameplay changes?"

I took cult from the DEAD. It was dead and out of rotation as the "newcult" abomination. I revived it, and made TWO PR's to make it more fun and balanced. Not the TWO THOUSAND that clockcult has gotten (and is still be deeply flawed).

In two PR's I balanced cult and where are we now?

January Cult Win Rate: Exactly 50%

February Cult Win Rate: 50.9%

March Cult Win Rate: Exactly 50%

I'm not fishing for compliments, I just feel like this "Robustin has no cred, he's just a newbie coder who we can't trust!" meme needs to die.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:14 am #278163

APOLOGIZE

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:32 am #278236

Street cred should not matter. A person's work should be judged on its quality, not its author. I guarantee that we would avoid many problems if everything PR GitHub was completely anonymous. I say this as someone who has made a plethora of well-received features and two game modes.

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:41 am

oranges wrote:This wont' work because we're not paying the maintainers so they're not required to review a pr if they dont' want to, they only review things they want to and they don't have to put any more effort in than they want.

Sign me up as a maintainer, ill put in 100% for free as the 'common sense' non-code maintainer.

Oh and i know entirely about the street cred ideal, since most of my ideas are disguarded purely on the basis im not important enough to warrant listening to, and somehow people with more street cred (Mekhi: stating that "what would tacolizard know?") put down others based on experience rather than listen to all sides as a open and supportive forum. (of course shitty ideas, will just be that)

Highest street creds push for different things than low street creds, mostly either to push their own content/furry agenda/memes in and also are proven to be more supportive of whitelisting, which comes into a high street cred = basically treating a open source server like a private server via use of their authority.

- Not open source if ideas are shot down fast fnr, and only a group of say seven people are able to regularly contribute without much question.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -08&type=c

Muh conspiraceeey

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:43 pm #278245

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
oranges wrote:This wont' work because we're not paying the maintainers so they're not required to review a pr if they dont' want to, they only review things they want to and they don't have to put any more effort in than they want.
Sign me up as a maintainer, ill put in 100% for free as the 'common sense' non-code maintainer.
Oh and i know entirely about the street cred ideal, since most of my ideas are disguarded purely on the basis im not important enough to warrant listening to, and somehow people with more street cred (Mekhi: stating that "what would tacolizard know?") put down others based on experience rather than listen to all sides as a open and supportive forum. (of course shitty ideas, will just be that)

Highest street creds push for different things than low street creds, mostly either to push their own content/furry agenda/memes in and also are proven to be more supportive of whitelisting, which comes into a high street cred = basically treating a open source server like a private server via use of their authority.

- Not open source if ideas are shot down fast fnr, and only a group of say seven people are able to regularly contribute without much question.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -08&type=c

Muh conspiraceeey

Maybe your ideas were shit or just did not ring with the people who were active in the IRC at the time. When I said street cred in my previous post, I meant PR history/coding experience, it has nothing to do with ideas or opinions.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:48 pm #278246

That is also applicable. If someone makes a gamemode for their first PR it's still a valid pull request and should be treated as such, but that's less of an issue than opinion is.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:22 pm #278272

I think it's reasonable to assume someone making a big PR for the first time will have less experience and more problems may be in the code than someone with years of experience, but bugs/etc. can be fixed so unless the code is outright fucking broken/awful it shouldn't matter too much

Let's be honest, though - there's going to be some form of bias in every maintainer ever, this isn't avoidable

onleavedontatme · Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:39 pm

Qbopper wrote: Let's be honest, though - there's going to be some form of bias in every human ever, this isn't avoidable

Fixed that for you. We are social creatures able to learn and recognize patterns. People will treat you differently based on your actions and attitude and referring to it derisively as "street cred" doesn't make it any less true.

My own PRs got a ton of extra scrutiny because I had an (earned) reputation as a poor coder.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:35 pm #278289

yeah I was thinking of putting that in but I was too busy being canadian

that was the point I was trying to get across, though - as much as robustin can deny it, this entire mess of drama will reflect on him in the future - why would anyone want to deal with someone who threatens to make things worse if he's ignored? at that point people will just ghost on you and hope you go away

FantasticFwoosh · Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:54 pm

Qbopper wrote:yeah I was thinking of putting that in but I was too busy being canadian

that was the point I was trying to get across, though - as much as robustin can deny it, this entire mess of drama will reflect on him in the future - why would anyone want to deal with someone who threatens to make things worse if he's ignored? at that point people will just ghost on you and hope you go away

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:42 pm #278477

dude epic post

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:16 am #278594

Oldman Robustin wrote:This isn't a "HERES WHAT YOU CAN DO TO SERVE ME" post

If that's how you need to start it, it probably is.