/tg/Station 13

This freeze will start in ~2 weeks. Things that will be accepted during this freeze

-Bug Fixes

-Refactors

-Improvements to civilian systems or gameplay or new features that you can use while not an antagonist without getting banned

Things that won't be accepted

-Balance changes (there can be incidental balance changes from otherwise acceptable PRs, but no "I buffed tasers" or "I nerfed eswords")

-New antagonist toys/types/etc

-New civilian stuff that can't realistically be used without being an antagonist or using it on an antagonist.

The freeze will last 1-2 months.

Hoping for input from other project members on finalizing the details in this.

Please be active so you can force through PRs that rework systems that people will get upset about changing

tl;dr it's an antag content freeze.

tbh this should be indefinite

bandit wrote:tbh this should be indefinite

The reason we are at the top of the ss13 community is because we change

oranges wrote:

bandit wrote:tbh this should be indefinite

The reason we are at the top of the ss13 community is because we change

NO CHANGE REEEEE

oranges wrote: we are at the top of the ss13 community

you know we are danno, we're the top and everyone is our bottom

oranges wrote:

bandit wrote:tbh this should be indefinite

The reason we are at the top of the ss13 community is because we change

That's like calling China the top country

Bawhoppennn wrote:

oranges wrote:

bandit wrote:tbh this should be indefinite

The reason we are at the top of the ss13 community is because we change

That's like calling China the top country

We're the number one innovator

Only thing I don't understand is how "No balance" is supposed to coherently relate to "Non-antag features".

A lot of the drastic balance shit has been """"indirect"""" results of features being added/removed/changed.

If I started work on the Engineering ship and beacon to summon it, or the repair vehicles and the factory to create them, would those be closed due to their balance implications?

Bawhoppennn wrote: That's like calling China the top country

Except we're not usually on the hub trying to attract the largest mass of players possible. People come here for a reason.

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Except we're not usually on the hub trying to attract the largest mass of players possible. People come here for a reason.

Okay that's not what I meant but that's not even really true either

Not really sure why balance changes are excluded.

There are a lot of simple tweaks in numbers that could improve the game.

IMO the problem is that balance changes are way less rewarding due to the fact that there is an above 50% chance of everyone shitting on your PR, while new antag toys are basically always accepted.

Can we please have a freeze which also freezes refactors? As far as I can tell the main reason we didnt really lose any issues overall last freeze was because of dozens of poorly-implemented refactors that left more bugs in the game because >what is a test

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Can we please have a freeze which also freezes refactors? As far as I can tell the main reason we didnt really lose any issues overall last freeze was because of dozens of poorly-implemented refactors that left more bugs in the game because >what is a test

But refactors (when done right) while be extremely worth it in the long run.

They're hardly done right

How would you know? You don't contribute, you don't see or interact with the fruits of the refactors.

Changes nothing.
In a perfect world you, an end user, wouldn't notice anything, that's actually in the definition of the word refactor (atleast with it's meaning within programming circles)
However this is not a perfect world, so all we have are the functional improvements, which again, you can't comment on as you never come into contact with them.

Like that time shuttles broke.

Or the time window breaking broke

Or the time pointing was persistent

Sure were swell improvements

Kor wrote:This freeze will start in ~2 weeks. Things that will be accepted during this freeze

-Bug Fixes

-Refactors

-Improvements to civilian systems or gameplay or new features that you can use while not an antagonist without getting banned

Things that won't be accepted

-Balance changes (there can be incidental balance changes from otherwise acceptable PRs, but no "I buffed tasers" or "I nerfed eswords")

-New antagonist toys/types/etc

-New civilian stuff that can't realistically be used without being an antagonist or using it on an antagonist.

The freeze will last 1-2 months.

Hoping for input from other project members on finalizing the details in this.

So I can keep working on this yes? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10967

D&B wrote:Like that time shuttles broke.

Or the time window breaking broke

Or the time pointing was persistent

Sure were swell improvements

Or that time all snowflake damage code was rewritten into one global system meaning it was no longer unmaintanable

Or that continuing effort to replace the garbage gamemode code with antag datums so we can actually mix antags and stuff.

goofball is actually in the right this time

He stole my posting gimmick from four years ago

Remie Richards wrote:Changes nothing.
In a perfect world you, an end user, wouldn't notice anything, that's actually in the definition of the word refactor (atleast with it's meaning within programming circles)
However this is not a perfect world, so all we have are the functional improvements, which again, you can't comment on as you never come into contact with them.

bugs are unintentional, you can complain about testing/etc. but I don't see why that has to cause a freeze on refactoring

Remie Richards wrote:Changes nothing.
In a perfect world you, an end user, wouldn't notice anything, that's actually in the definition of the word refactor (atleast with it's meaning within programming circles)
However this is not a perfect world, so all we have are the functional improvements, which again, you can't comment on as you never come into contact with them.

This goes both ways. Speaking as an admin who constantly has to answer ahelps with "it's a known bug," coders who never come into contact with the end result of the "improvements" in-game should not comment.

XD

OK but the click code refactor, to take one example, has resulted in a lot of ahelps along the lines of "I can't interact with _______" resulting in actual round issues. One issue recently was wanted posters being unable to be removed, causing a lot of unnecessary shit with security due to a bug

Actually most interaction bugs are the fault of Cyberboss' Initialize() stuff, not the clickcode rewrite, which was minor in scope.
I figured you'd know that since you fixed one yourself? (Ian)

Rockdtben wrote: So I can keep working on this yes? https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10967

Yeah

Remie Richards wrote:Actually most interaction bugs are the fault of Cyberboss' Initialize() stuff, not the clickcode rewrite, which was minor in scope.
I figured you'd know that since you fixed one yourself? (Ian)

yeah initialize(), is what I meant

Will removals/reverts be allowed? They were allowed during the regular freeze. I don't want to see clockcult stay for 2 more months because the poll ran for 2 weeks and the freeze kicked in before it could be removed.

I'd rather allow reverts but prevent removals, last freeze we saw balance changes pass due to being technically code removals, like removing telescience.

I just realized that clockcult removal will be grandfathered in regardless because it was opened before the freeze, duh

Oldman Robustin wrote:Only thing I don't understand is how "No balance" is supposed to coherently relate to "Non-antag features".

A lot of the drastic balance shit has been """"indirect"""" results of features being added/removed/changed.

If I started work on the Engineering ship and beacon to summon it, or the repair vehicles and the factory to create them, would those be closed due to their balance implications?

Also I'm pretty sure it can alter balance massively, it just needs to be in the spirit of actually improving the game, hence why he said no "buff eswords & nerf tasers" type of balance changes.

Sounds good, about as far as we can realistically go in defining development direction.

God antur why are you the chinese hive man from alpha centauri you just spooked me so hard.

I'm preparing mentally for moving the code into recycling vats. (Also played it recently)

AnturK is looking to the future of coderbus, a hive mind under one person's whim.

my whim.

Remie Richards wrote:my whim.

Oranges whim

Juiced

Now have you seen what happens to people who cross me?

Now have you seen what happens to people who cross me?

Now have you seen what happens to people who post the same thing twice?

Xhuis wrote:Now have you seen what happens to people who post the same thing twice?

Yes, the people who point it out get juiced
it's my mouse, it manages to hit the button twice really quickly (check out the vidya threads, I just did it thrice!) and I guess phpBB doesn't delay clicks.

Remie Richards wrote:Now have you seen what happens to people who cross me?

>No warning about the specific start time for the freeze
>Both this thread and IRC had misleading times for the freeze start

I'm pretty fucking salty about this, why do it like this when our last freeze was specific down to the minute about when it would start.

Oldman Robustin wrote:>No warning about the specific start time for the freeze
>Both this thread and IRC had misleading times for the freeze start

I'm pretty fucking salty about this, why do it like this when our last freeze was specific down to the minute about when it would start.

>literally one of the few exceptions to the freeze
>is complaining about the freeze starting despite being exempt

Oldman Robustin wrote:>No warning about the specific start time for the freeze
>Both this thread and IRC had misleading times for the freeze start

I'm pretty fucking salty about this, why do it like this when our last freeze was specific down to the minute about when it would start.

Specific date means that people would rush to PR their unfinished stuff to bypass grandfather clause. It's better this way. See: Trump's travel ban.