Potential new design push

[oranges]

No new modes for a while, instead we look to add new antags to the existing roundtypes, like traitor+changeling but with more antag types.

i.e traitor+changeling + internal affairs etc.

[lumipharon]

What ever happened to the idea of datum antags? Did that just quietly die in the corner or what?

[oranges]

It's still happening, but a lot of existing antags would not fit within a traitor round and not disrupt it to an extreme extend

[John_Oxford]

no one wants to make anything new out of fear of it getting rejected by maintainers after applying hundreds of hours of work to it.

this will eventually lead to stagnation, player loss, then the overall death of the community.

no one believes me because im oxford but hey thats none of my busniess.

[D&B]

IAA is shit though

[onleavedontatme]

oxford

We have had 644 active pull requests in the last month, why do you post things that are just entirely disconnected from reality?

[John_Oxford]

none of those 644 pull requests were

-this big new game changing interesting game mode planet amazing loads of content map- (excluding j_mad, and you)-

they we're

-ecigs now fit in your wallet horray-


(noting jmad and you are both horribly understaffed and horribly under motivated and me nor several hundred other people would be surprised if you simply got tired of working on the idea)

and i wouldn't blame you, i do it all the time and im the idea master.

EDIT:

additionally, just looking at the github, TODAY there are 38 pull requests open, SIX have a feature tag.

https://gyazo.com/d3b3903e184fda30c4342476b890f365

five of which are actual features, one is just adding subcategories to the crafting menu.

none of which are "look at this new game mode with hundreds of hours put into it" or "look at this new indepth feature that took me hundreds of hours to make" which was the point of the op

its the same people making the same vague 2 hour ideas.

theres only so much content you can put into a space station over the course of 11 years before you start repeating yourself

you specifically did what i said you would do in my reply to the op which only proves my point more

[BeeSting12]

oxford

We have had 644 active pull requests in the last month, why do you post things that are just entirely disconnected from reality?

dont fall for his bait

[lumipharon]

It's still happening, but a lot of existing antags would not fit within a traitor round and not disrupt it to an extreme extend

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original idea was more along the lines of "choose a 'primary' antag (ie:round type) and season with additional lesser antags up to quota.

My favorite concept has always been to flesh out the different syndicate factions for traitors and let players choose (or simply forced, to avoid memesters going for murderboner choice all the time) which faction they want to assist.
Assisting a specific faction gives more difficult, and faction themed objectives, and has a different uplink list - with items costing more or less (plus some faction specific items) based on the theme of the faction.

So a Gorlex marauder agent might have better/cheaper access to weapons and exploses, and "slaughter every member of the science department" as an objective, where a Cybersun operative would have better access to stealthy and subversive equipment and some obscure objective like "implicate the CE for the murder of the RD (kill the RD and get the CE taken to centcomm in the shuttle brig? I uno, probably hard to implement)".

[John_Oxford]

oxford

We have had 644 active pull requests in the last month, why do you post things that are just entirely disconnected from reality?

dont fall for his bait

additional "its oxford dont listen to him" post

i don't blame you i've memed myself into irrelevancy but i'm raising a valid point, its the same one i've been raising for as long as i've been playing here and its always been dismissed on the premise that im oxford.

EDIT:

if you take a look at the contributors list, its 380.

thats 380 people who have contributed to the github over the entire course that this community has been alive.

if you look everyone who has made atleast 100 contributions or more (which is roughly 50 people) they are either

A: a maintainer
B: MSO
C: a headmin (shoutout to CR for being the top contributor next to the master acc)
D: a ex-maintainer
or E: someone who has openly agreed with me that their contributions are either shut down by maintainers or reverted to fast (contributions are counted as passed PRs, not all the ideas that are still in the game and haven't been reverted)

https://gyazo.com/b7847557fbd12b06a83c9038c272f5af

this is the graph of contributions generated by github.

its almost half way through 2017, explain to me statistically why the graph isn't either A: going higher or B: matching the contributions from 2016.

its because we are in decline, its simple statistics.

[BeeSting12]

You would be more relevant if you do your research. I try to do a bit of research before posting on the forums about something so I sound informed and not an idiot peanut posting and it doesn't always work but hey what do i know

[John_Oxford]

You would be more relevant if you do your research. I try to do a bit of research before posting on the forums about something so I sound informed and not an idiot peanut posting and it doesn't always work but hey what do i know

thats quite literally what im doing

[BeeSting12]

that was posted before your edit. good for you

[captain sawrge]

The community's lifespan exceeds the github's lifespan. There have always been ups and downs. We're experiencing a lot of coder burnout, we've had a few freezes in the past year or so, what we need to focus on is improving what we have instead of adding more ill-conceived shallow new toys.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The community's lifespan exceeds the github's lifespan. There have always been ups and downs. We're experiencing a lot of coder burnout, we've had a few freezes in the past year or so, what we need to focus on is improving what we have instead of adding more ill-conceived shallow new toys.

this.



edit: no wait shit i agreed with sawre how do i un-agree

[Qbopper]

The community's lifespan exceeds the github's lifespan. There have always been ups and downs. We're experiencing a lot of coder burnout, we've had a few freezes in the past year or so, what we need to focus on is improving what we have instead of adding more ill-conceived shallow new toys.

this.



edit: no wait shit i agreed with sawre how do i un-agree

ctrl-z

[Remie Richards]

no one wants to make anything new out of fear of it getting rejected by maintainers after applying hundreds of hours of work to it.

this will eventually lead to stagnation, player loss, then the overall death of the community.

no one believes me because im oxford but hey thats none of my busniess.

you do know you should ask first if you want to get controversial stuff through?
Then the only reason your stuff won't get through is either:
A. We said no, congratulations you didn't waste any time
B. We say yes, but your code is shit

Option B can be solved if you actually listen to feedback, instead of trying something, being told no, giving 5 minutes of attempts at the proper way and then going "nah I'm going back to the way you told me not to do" (Which spoilers, gets it denied)

Simple really, just because you put effort in doesn't mean you're entitled to a merge.

[lumipharon]

Well, this thread got derailed fast.

[oranges]

I went in with such high hopes

[lumipharon]

Well ignoring the memester, is something like the syndicate faction thing I mentioned something you'd think would be interesting?
While it's not an outright new antag, it would add something fresh to the gamemode, and a bit of variety.

[oranges]

yes that is actually quite a nice idea, one it lets us flesh out some of the syndicate lore some more, but more importantly it focuses people to play more strongly along certain lines, like a stealth faction, a combat faction etc.

[lumipharon]

The general gist of it as far as I can envision would be:
1) Themed objectives (probably multiple)
2) certain faction appropriate items discounted to some extend. Perhaps 1 or more faction only items available
3) Certain faction inappropriate items increased in price or outright not available
4) Fluffy info given on how to behave (stealthy/explosive fuck you, etc) as per faction lore (gorelex trusts all factions, cybersun only trust cybersun and mi13 agents, waffle only trust gorelex (not even other waffle agents, HONK)

Probably contentious, but it would be the most FUN if traitors were given the option of working for a specific faction round start (may or may not know which faction?), but if they choose to accept, they MUST (contrary to normal server rules) actually try and follow 4 above.
That way, if you're a turbonerd that just wants to greentext or murderbone, you can simply ignore the system, but if you want an interested theme to your tatoring, you have the option of doing so.

[bandit]

We have a fucking ton of side antags as it is. I'm not sure why we need more

[oranges]

revenant, ninja, abductor, any others?

[bandit]

swarmers
morph
slaughter memon
devils maybe

[Steelpoint]

Wasn't there a old idea of fleshing out the individual factions that are members of the Syndicate, and then randomly assigned traitors to one of these factions?

Each faction would have somewhat different objectives and some unique tools. The random assignment was suggested to prevent everyone from picking a meta faction.

[oranges]

no steelpoint you can't add marines get out

[XDTM]

We could use some more independent non-solo antags aside from traitor and ling. Maybe a mode with a high number of unequipped antags a la rev, or a cultlike antag that does not play in a team.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I like the idea of, for a minor antag / midround antag, a "riot", where a bunch of people are all given the objectives to destroy as much of the station as possible without killing anyone

[captain sawrge]

I like the idea of, for a minor antag / midround antag, a "riot", where a bunch of people are all given the objectives to destroy as much of the station as possible without killing anyone

That kind of thing works much better when it just happens on its own

[CPTANT]

I think every mode should have a chance of having 1 or 2 traitors.

[Oldman Robustin]

Counts PR's or Commits or purposes of THIS issue is silly Kor.

It's no secret that people who try BIG THINGS tend to get BIG DICKS in their ass for the effort. People who touch major aspects of modes are either people like you who can remove and replace our 3rd largest mode within 48 hours and from the moment you type a single line of code you have the priceless blessing of knowing that your work will be merged - and people like me or Xhuis who just end up being incredibly disgruntled and burnt out. For me its not even because of being bossed around by people who don't even play, but practically the opposite, maintainers not really offering anything except silence or "Fuck this" and 0 transparency about what it takes to get a big idea merged around here. Maintainers have no appetite for disruption outside of their very narrow ideal so being a maintainer, or as well connected as one, is a requirement if you are a reasonably sane person who doesn't like watching hundreds of hours of work thrown into the dumpster.

Anyway: Datum antags and more antag mixing is just as disruptive as adding any new mode. Almost any crossover will require dozens of snowflake adjustments to the "hybrid" mode. It can be made to work but it just raises the question of "how does stuffing more antags into this round enhance it?" In some cases it could work simply by virtue of adding more variety to the average (and super stale) traitor round, but I fear in most it would just create nightmare scenarios where you get conversion antags with ebows or whatever.

[CPTANT]

Counts PR's or Commits or purposes of THIS issue is silly Kor.

It's no secret that people who try BIG THINGS tend to get BIG DICKS in their ass for the effort. People who touch major aspects of modes are either people like you who can remove and replace our 3rd largest mode within 48 hours and from the moment you type a single line of code you have the priceless blessing of knowing that your work will be merged - and people like me or Xhuis who just end up being incredibly disgruntled and burnt out. For me its not even because of being bossed around by people who don't even play, but practically the opposite, maintainers not really offering anything except silence or "Fuck this" and 0 transparency about what it takes to get a big idea merged around here. Maintainers have no appetite for disruption outside of their very narrow ideal so being a maintainer, or as well connected as one, is a requirement if you are a reasonably sane person who doesn't like watching hundreds of hours of work thrown into the dumpster.

Anyway: Datum antags and more antag mixing is just as disruptive as adding any new mode. Almost any crossover will require dozens of snowflake adjustments to the "hybrid" mode. It can be made to work but it just raises the question of "how does stuffing more antags into this round enhance it?" In some cases it could work simply by virtue of adding more variety to the average (and super stale) traitor round, but I fear in most it would just create nightmare scenarios where you get conversion antags with ebows or whatever.

I think traitors and lings should simply be told to prioritize their own objectives over group objectives.

I think it would be hilarious if a traitor backstabs a Nar'Sie summoning or a changeling eats an operative.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Yeah but then you have the "antags are allowed to do whatever" kick in and suddenly people with the cult IFF are mowing down their companions

[leibniz]

If there is a clearly established antag priority, the "how many layers of brainwashed are you on" scale or whatever
for example
"changeling > cult > traitor > rev > whatever"

Maybe it would be worth trialing. Shaking things up is fun.
Yeah, that guy that looks like a fellow rev is fucking you up, think fast.
At the same time, it might be necessary to limit stuff like traitor revs assisting heads of staff just to make the revs lose.

The real question is, which thread would get an increase in stories, "stories of awesome" or "stories of rage, tears and regret".

[Jzoid]

Yeah but then you have the "antags are allowed to do whatever" kick in and suddenly people with the cult IFF are mowing down their companions

If I understand what you're saying, you're saying that you'll have Cultists who started as Traitors and are now Cultists (With Traitor objectives and items) killing other cultists.
Simplest fix to that issue is simply making it so brain washing over rules traitors. Whilst you'll keep your stuff, you lose your alignment to the Syndicate, just like brain washing a standard crew member loses their alignment to NT.

[oranges]

I don't think this will be going anywhere soon for some obvious reasons

[paprika]

Datum antags is absolutely what this game needs, and a mode instead of secret where any number of antags can come at once, because one of the largest problems is 'oh it's a ling round time to dump this nuke disk in the trash i need backpack space'

[CPTANT]

Yeah but then you have the "antags are allowed to do whatever" kick in and suddenly people with the cult IFF are mowing down their companions

If I understand what you're saying, you're saying that you'll have Cultists who started as Traitors and are now Cultists (With Traitor objectives and items) killing other cultists.
Simplest fix to that issue is simply making it so brain washing over rules traitors. Whilst you'll keep your stuff, you lose your alignment to the Syndicate, just like brain washing a standard crew member loses their alignment to NT.

But traitors that DO backstab cultists are way more interesting.

[lumipharon]

Traitors backstabbing their cult buddies is fine - as long as it's helping them achieve their traitor objectives.

It's as straight forward as silicon laws - the AI will obey human instructions, but if it has to ignore that in order to save a human life, then that's ok - and the players (mostly) seem to manage that just fine.

Of course this makes cult objectives very incompatible with most tators and lings, since they most commonly have to survive the round to win... but hey, that just makes interesting situations where they want the cult to succeed, just not before they can steal the CE's magboots or whatever, and want to see nar nar summoned, but they would rather be cheering on the ritual from a safe distance then actively participating in it.

[ShadowDimentio]

A huge improvement to the game would be reverting lings to how they were in the ye olden days, or just removing them.

But hey that's just a theory, a GAME THEORY

[oranges]

get out of here david, shoo, shoo