Emag change PR

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legoscape
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by legoscape » #571605

Bottom post of the previous page:

Sheodir wrote:
legoscape wrote:EDIT: I just made a long dumb post about my anger over the recent changes to this server. I just realized oranges can do what he wants because he knows how to code. I don't think he cares about the input because a majority of players want cloning/sleepers back but he doesn't give a shit so whatever dude.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26719
^ see
Did you read that thread wrong
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This clearly says a majority of players want neither back, unless you're adding the votes of people who want only a single one back which is dumb given people could vote in multiple options and thus people who want both are already accounted for
You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by RG4ORDR » #571609

Cobby wrote:breaking up emag functions are good (some functions shouldn’t even be present), if the issue is that the doormag got under tuned then just raise it a bit
Nobody has complained about the Emag like ever. Why would it be changed then?
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Sheodir
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Sheodir » #571610

legoscape wrote: You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
You don't understand, in that vote they could vote for both. We've literally had a vote where they could show if they wanted 1 or a combination of both in some form and the response was no. Most players have either adapted or liked no cloning, specially if they ever touched Medical.
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oranges
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by oranges » #571614

NecromancerAnne wrote:I will say, since this threads up again, the fact most doors are double airlocks with shared access really makes the doormags limited and extremely slow charge regain pretty painful. A full three minutes on a single charge is an immense amount of time for what you're normally using the doormag for, and at 3 a pop buying multiple seems an utter waste to just using tools.

I genuinely don't understand why I would want this as a traitor given I can't reasonably make it very deep into a department with it and at that point I'm going to turn to tools anyway. It's mostly at the fault of map design than the item.

Every set of doors being in twos makes sense but does mean getting into a major interior department hallway can eat up almost 2/3rds of your valuable charges. I want to emag doors because I have to make it in and out quickly. But since it doesn't really do that anymore and only opens small area of doors permanently, I would prefer reasonable deniability of a set of tools I can reacquire if I'm captured rather than spend murder dollars on it and blow my cover wide open.

If the idea is that I am more liable to be caught, I'll probably prepare to be caught (or I'll brute force it through violence and kill my way into a department on stolen access as path of least resistance proves increasingly viable) and hope I don't get killed for B&E by some overzealous idiot. The last bit being the primary reason why people take the path of least resistance mind you. There was no talking to be had, just a binary valid/not valid, which tends to make anyone banking on conversation rather cynical, so I consider it as a potential perspective a player might take.

It definitely kicked ops in the teeth and that's cool. This is a good balance change for ops. But my initial concerns with it being crap for traitors when the pr was first proposed is pretty much correct. Maybe it's something they probably don't need and shouldn't be using in the first place, so maybe it'd be better removed from the traitor uplink. They still get syndicate toolboxes after all, so they do have options in their uplink for trespass.
It has 3 charges so it's primarily for escaping, if you want to break into places, then hack in, like you should be doing.
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NecromancerAnne
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by NecromancerAnne » #571617

oranges wrote:It has 3 charges so it's primarily for escaping, if you want to break into places, then hack in, like you should be doing.
Escape doesn't quite work, since dropping bolts prevents the emag from being useful for an escape, and you can't rely on evading the attention from the AI. Especially if people call for help on the right channels, since the AI can zoom their camera to anywhere with a camera. For it to be an escape tool, you'd need to pre-emptively set up that route, if that makes sense. Or have it changed to unbolt the door (which might make stuff like the vault too easy an area to enter with a doormag). Old emag could set up escape routes, but that was also why it was useful for blitzing into an area, since it could nullify every door on the way to where you needed to go. Give too much power back and that'll become possible again if you're not careful.

I'm also a bit hesitant to say if buffing it is a good idea either, as cobby suggested, since that could entirely defeat the purpose of changing it in the first place. I would really, really prefer to not see blitz ops with an emag ever again and I'm entirely willing to accept the loss of the doormag for that. It's not bad for actually sealing rooms, mind you, for much the same reasons as it is terrible as an escape tool. Bolted emagged doors are really good ways to put up a barricade.

It is handy in small areas, for when you want to keep specific doors open, or certain doors shut. That's amazing for ops. But for traitors, I really do think hacking is the way it should be. Maybe the fact it is good at sealing up doors is probably why it should stay in the traitor uplink, but at that point I feel there are better options.

This isn't really anything particularly declarative. I feel like if hacking is the intended path for B&E then this is definitely the right way to go. And is the state of affairs for now.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by oranges » #571618

it should be changed to lift bolts then
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Sheodir
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Sheodir » #571619

oranges wrote:it should be changed to lift bolts then
be the change you wanna see
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by NecromancerAnne » #571621

oranges wrote:it should be changed to lift bolts then
Yeah that sounds like a sound way to make sure it doesn't wind up too good for aggression. I like that, though I'd also like it to toggle between bolting and unbolting. No need to take away options that are already good and reward clever planning.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by oranges » #571622

Sheodir wrote:
oranges wrote:it should be changed to lift bolts then
be the change you wanna see
I will take your kneecaps
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legoscape
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by legoscape » #571631

RG4ORDR wrote:
Cobby wrote:breaking up emag functions are good (some functions shouldn’t even be present), if the issue is that the doormag got under tuned then just raise it a bit
Nobody has complained about the Emag like ever. Why would it be changed then?
This is kind of an invalid point because the "overpowered" culture is here
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Cobby » #571635

RG4ORDR wrote:
Cobby wrote:breaking up emag functions are good (some functions shouldn’t even be present), if the issue is that the doormag got under tuned then just raise it a bit
Nobody has complained about the Emag like ever. Why would it be changed then?
I have taken issue with the emag long before i became a maintainer and was strictly a player. It acts as a way for people to dump weird interactions that don't really make sense (heck someone added an emag feature to a plushie before it got reverted) but it gets okayed from a balance POV because you had to dump 6 TC into it without considering that the same 6 TC can be used ad nauseum to a wide variety of aspects that are also balanced around "well you gotta dump 6 TC".
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Cobby » #571636

It's the oranges x cobby otp. While I'm fairly certain what motivates oranges to aid and abet radical changes despite not playing we may never understand what motivates Cobby.
breaking up the emag to either separate entities or have them a way to be done without being a traitor and investing TC isn't really a radical position.

In general I came from a population who sperged out at making the game complex and unforgiving a la dorf fortress, so anything that adds challenge is based.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Armhulen » #571637

So much debate over an item that used to be the most purchased by a massive margin
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legoscape
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by legoscape » #571645

Sheodir wrote:
legoscape wrote: You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
You don't understand, in that vote they could vote for both. We've literally had a vote where they could show if they wanted 1 or a combination of both in some form and the response was no. Most players have either adapted or liked no cloning, specially if they ever touched Medical.
I could vote for all three. You should only be able to vote for one.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Armhulen » #571647

legoscape wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
legoscape wrote: You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
You don't understand, in that vote they could vote for both. We've literally had a vote where they could show if they wanted 1 or a combination of both in some form and the response was no. Most players have either adapted or liked no cloning, specially if they ever touched Medical.
I could vote for all three. You should only be able to vote for one.
Voting for all three means voting for nothing, why is that even an issue?
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #571682

move the locker opening to door opener ....
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Istoprocent1 » #571686

oranges wrote:it should be changed to lift bolts then
This.
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Sheodir
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Sheodir » #571687

legoscape wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
legoscape wrote: You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
You don't understand, in that vote they could vote for both. We've literally had a vote where they could show if they wanted 1 or a combination of both in some form and the response was no. Most players have either adapted or liked no cloning, specially if they ever touched Medical.
I could vote for all three. You should only be able to vote for one.
They could not.
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legoscape
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by legoscape » #571722

Armhulen wrote:
legoscape wrote:
Sheodir wrote:
legoscape wrote: You got a point. I think there needs to be vote for Cloners or Sleepers and if they want it back or not. So essentially 2 votes. But yeah I'll say a majority of people want a combination of the two.
You don't understand, in that vote they could vote for both. We've literally had a vote where they could show if they wanted 1 or a combination of both in some form and the response was no. Most players have either adapted or liked no cloning, specially if they ever touched Medical.
I could vote for all three. You should only be able to vote for one.
Voting for all three means voting for nothing, why is that even an issue?
Ya know this is retarded semantics by this point. Nothing is going to be done about these changes.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Stickymayhem » #571724

oranges wrote:it should be changed to lift bolts then
this gives it some utility the emag didn't while still being very limited and i like it
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by BrianBackslide » #572030

But I like bolting doors and then emagging to lock people in their department!
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Helios
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Helios » #572120

Having made that poll, I can tell you adding cloners or sleepers back lost.
I was on the wrong side of that argument, even though I would like to see some version of cloners back in the game.
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #572154

Helios wrote:Having made that poll, I can tell you adding cloners or sleepers back lost.
I was on the wrong side of that argument, even though I would like to see some version of cloners back in the game.
its called head swap into a monkeyman and defib to cure 99% of the illness
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by oranges » #572291

forbidden monke technique
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Re: Emag change PR

Post by cacogen » #572447

i like that tlal knows everything and sidesteps coder shit with meta he freely shares
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