Box Removal Discussion

How, what and why to code in BYOND.
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oranges
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #559845

Bottom post of the previous page:

terranaut wrote:
Farquaar wrote:
terranaut wrote: So why is your response to the map popularity vote to leave donut in and talk about removing box? I don't get it. Yeah Donut has a unique map concept but that concept is shit and pretty universally disliked.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/50730
I'm not really on either side of the discussion here, but a lot of people complaining about Donut in this thread would be better served by simply advocating for Box instead.
I've made some arguments for box, I'm just trying to understand oranges' behavior instead of just calling him a shitter like anyone else who disagrees with him
This isn't my PR
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #559847

I have some good memories of the map (I remember trying to club kat green to death in the lawyer's office on my first ever round), but honestly looking at the layout (https://tgstation13.org/wiki//images/d/ ... tation.png), I honestly have to agree with oranges - it's just meta but a bit mixed up.

A lot of people are saying it's easier to sabotage - but the AI upload is inside the bridge (not that meta is in an unsafe spot, but you at least have less doors to go through), the vault is attached to main halls, atmos is closer to everything else, the grav generator is bridge adjacent rather than in the middle of nowhere like meta, the AI sat is significantly more secure as you can't just stand right in front of the AI and be safe from all the turrets and there are a lot more of them to get past as well as more doors. You could argue that telecomms is easier to grief but frankly it's silicons that turn that off more often than not and it just makes it easier to fix being on station. Sure viro and xenobio aren't stranded out in space but how often are those priorities to break into?

Just looking at the map layout it looks like box kinda just cucks antags since most of the important parts of the station are cramped together or just seem more secure. Maint is kind of interesting in that it doesn't wind around the station nearly as well as meta and there are a number of areas in maint where it's much roomier and not just a bunch of caves.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by CPTANT » #559849

terranaut wrote:
bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something
Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.
No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #559851

CPTANT wrote:
terranaut wrote:
bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something
Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.
No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.
So instead of having to design maps to have every feature, you now have to design the entire game around multiple maps having different features - this is an even worse problem. Instead of just making maps kinda painful to maintain, you're now developing several games at once.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #559860

CPTANT wrote:
terranaut wrote:
bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something
Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.
No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.
first impression is important on new PRs, plumbing not available on all maps slowed development of it and made it lose snowballing effect, other example is donut, it was so extremely bad at the start that now people will hate it even if you paste metastation on top of it, on a mapvote 90% of people will remember shockgrilles in maint, depowered departments, lack of everything and click on any map that isnt donut
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Whoneedspacee » #559861

how is making unique maps managing several different games at once, i never saw a game team like team fortress 2 complain about having to maintain different maps for payload and ctf

people are free to maintain whatever they want but don’t act like it’s an unreasonable thing to want, this is a pretty standard thing
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by trollbreeder » #559863

Whoneedspacee wrote:how is making unique maps managing several different games at once, i never saw a game team like team fortress 2 complain about having to maintain different maps for payload and ctf

people are free to maintain whatever they want but don’t act like it’s an unreasonable thing to want, this is a pretty standard thing
that being said tf2 is a casual first person shooter that doesn't have a million parts of the game that have to be placed before the round begins so that the medic can perform surgery or that the pyro can get his burn mix, tf2 is a game where shotgun go daka daka, movement go nyoom
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #559869

Plumbing is still a non issue to me.

You could remove ALL of the chem lab areas and just place a plumbing RCD and some pipes on the chem desk at roundstart.

Whether it be instantly, 20 minutes in, or an hour in. The chemist will go to the vacant office and start building some plumbing machines.

Space is a non-issue in a game with several hidden and large areas for pet projects and things like that.

Even if they do run out of space somehow. It's nothing that a stack of metal sheets cant fix to create more tiles.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by duncathan » #559876

Whoneedspacee wrote:how is making unique maps managing several different games at once, i never saw a game team like team fortress 2 complain about having to maintain different maps for payload and ctf

people are free to maintain whatever they want but don’t act like it’s an unreasonable thing to want, this is a pretty standard thing
the team behind tf2 gets paid
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by FloranOtten » #559880

My point about maint isn't that it should be a loot pinãta. I'm saying that it should have purpose. Look at the 5 distinct areas of maint on box. What do they add? Why are there a fuckload of 2x3 rooms? Why are there so many dead end hallways?
Why these pipes going nowhere? Why are there 2x2 rooms in the middle of maint, with only a window looking in, with loot that's just a few jumpsuits? Who needs this, and why are they taking up this space?

The antag hideout thing is a bit shit. Sure, a cult can make a more interesting base but should you really have to start a fucking construction business to setup your autism fort? Should you really be unable to hide from anyone who memorizes the layout?
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Flatulent » #559883

> makes decision based on sybil vote

you have got to be fucking kidding me.

you are removing Donut which is getting active updates(arguably has a future as a good map)and has an active map coder, but you aren't removing box which is a crashing piece of shit that nobody wants to actively maintain.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #559888

Flatulent wrote:> makes decision based on sybil vote

you have got to be fucking kidding me.

you are removing Donut which is getting active updates(arguably has a future as a good map)and has an active map coder, but you aren't removing box which is a crashing piece of shit that nobody wants to actively maintain.
No fart they're trying to remove both of them.

It's just box is getting more push-back since no one cares about donut.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by duncathan » #559893

Flatulent wrote:> makes decision based on sybil vote

you have got to be fucking kidding me.

you are removing Donut which is getting active updates(arguably has a future as a good map)and has an active map coder, but you aren't removing box which is a crashing piece of shit that nobody wants to actively maintain.
this is why project staff can never win btw
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by SuperbDingaling » #559905

oranges wrote: You have no play time at all
Exactly, and you don't see me in a coder position, do you?
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #559906

SuperbDingaling wrote:
oranges wrote: You have no play time at all
Exactly, and you don't see me in a coder position, do you?
only if coder means prostitute in some african language
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by MrStonedOne » #559907

oranges wrote: For you to come out and act like this is a thing that's happening on purpose is actually pretty scummy, and I'd appreciate if you apologised.
I never meant to imply it was intentional, but i can see how it comes off that way, so I do apologize for that.

I meant to more plainly state that its a pattern in coderbus. I honestly believe the pattern is organically created by how coderbus operates, and how short of a memory it has. I just think more care should be put into rather or not a problem should be thought of as a regression or not.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Helios » #559913

Box doesn't need to be removed.
Box is the simplest map. Box is the 2fort. Box is the easiest map as a player to learn, and as a player to teach.
Box exists so when there's another event like sseth's video, we can teach the next generation how to play the game. If you start off a new player teaching them about multi level stations, or snowbox, and they accidentally walk over a hole, and they die and get their body teleported deep into the snow, they're probably not going to stick around.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by trollbreeder » #559919

Helios wrote:Box doesn't need to be removed.
Box is the simplest map. Box is the 2fort. Box is the easiest map as a player to learn, and as a player to teach.
Box exists so when there's another event like sseth's video, we can teach the next generation how to play the game. If you start off a new player teaching them about multi level stations, or snowbox, and they accidentally walk over a hole, and they die and get their body teleported deep into the snow, they're probably not going to stick around.
2fort is garbage for experienced players but atleast in tf2 you can leave the server and queue for the map you actually like because theres hundreds of servers (compared to our 5 servers, 4 if you dont count mister manual)
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #559925

Flatulent wrote:> makes decision based on sybil vote

you have got to be fucking kidding me.

you are removing Donut which is getting active updates(arguably has a future as a good map)and has an active map coder, but you aren't removing box which is a crashing piece of shit that nobody wants to actively maintain.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #559968

Yeah totally honest removing donut is a bit weird since there's a guy actively maintaining and upgrading it. I know it wasnt the most liked map because familiarity but it just doesn't seem fair on MMM.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #559973

the donut maintainer gave up read the donut thread
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by MMMiracles » #559977

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:the donut maintainer gave up read the donut thread
gave up on it because of the PR and the vote, but yeah.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by actioninja » #559978

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Yeah totally honest removing donut is a bit weird since there's a guy actively maintaining and upgrading it. I know it wasnt the most liked map because familiarity but it just doesn't seem fair on MMM.
MMM gave up when it was still the least popular map by a pretty wide margin. I don't blame him with how much work he sunk into donut for everyone to still hate it.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #559983

That's half my point, guy pours his soul into something and gets mostly shit for it. Ain't right you know
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by trollbreeder » #559992

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:That's half my point, guy pours his soul into something and gets mostly shit for it. Ain't right you know
remember cerestation?
I'm a dumb feature coder, also a bad (but not terrible) coderspriter and a semi-good mapper and an enforcer of standards.
you can find me playing when i'm not coding or playing csgo as cleans-the-house on event hall, sybil or manuel

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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by teepeepee » #559994

trollbreeder wrote:
XivilaiAnaxes wrote:That's half my point, guy pours his soul into something and gets mostly shit for it. Ain't right you know
remember cerestation?
bring it back
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by FloranOtten » #560001

Bring back cere

I have a version that opens for whoever needs it.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by terranaut » #560002

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:That's half my point, guy pours his soul into something and gets mostly shit for it. Ain't right you know
i'd never shit on a guy contributing this much, the effort and time is definitely appreciated, but that doesn't mean i have to like the end result
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560029

My standing advice to mappers is don't waste your time, nobody will appreciate what you do anyway.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Shadowflame909 » #560034

My advice for mappers is, map when the players are burnt out on maps

With the recurring playerbase this might not ever happen.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Cobby » #560080

only a few people even have map burnout though. We used to be box (f) 24/7 on sybil for quite a while, most people didn't care until bagil went down and those people (who were on de_meta2) started whining.

Really if you have to look at map variety to enjoy the game you are probably burnt out anyways. The solution isn't dumping hours into a new map people are just going to hop and skip by to play meta for the zillionth time or otherwise remake meta.

I would prefer people to improve the current existing maps anyways or make ruins.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by OhChildflayer » #560097

oranges wrote:My standing advice to mappers is don't waste your time, nobody will appreciate what you do anyway.
Is your advice to coders the same?
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560098

Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by SuperbDingaling » #560248

oranges wrote:Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
Then why are you still a coder?
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560257

I'm better at it than you
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by SuperbDingaling » #560266

Not a very large hurdle to jump over, considering I'm not a coder at all.

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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by OhChildflayer » #560282

oranges wrote:Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ps/stress-tips.html
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560294

I don't think the players will read it mate

Also I like the effort the other guy went too
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by halitosisman » #560308

The only job breaking issue I remember with box was its awful plumbing, but that got mostly fixed if I remember correctly.

Does the layout of box affect the usual routines of most jobs in any substantial way? Do robos make different mech choices as a result of the box layout? Do chemists spend their times on different chems in box? Will sec have anything other than mostly straight featureless primary halls to chase people down?

Maybe maps should be designed around some specific game mode or other kind of purpose. The time and effort I suspect it takes to maintain the two maps in tandom doesn't justify the similar gameplay that they offer.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by MMMiracles » #560312

As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode? Something like event maps that can voted on in the map pool along with the regular station maps. They probably wouldn't be expected to have full feature parity along with regular stations since they're designed with a specific mode in mind.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Whoneedspacee » #560376

member infection gamemode siiiiiiip
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Tlaltecuhtli » #560378

inflaction gamemode? you mean when we had stock market?
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Flatulent » #560453

MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode?
can’t you already load maps if you are admin? Why bother adding an event map into the code, this is content bloat. It won’t be used all the time.
if you’re reading this please kindly suck my nuts
Mothblocks, winter 2021, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560481

You can't really run your gamemode regularly if it relies on admins to load a map flat
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by BeeSting12 » #560483

Flatulent wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode?
can’t you already load maps if you are admin? Why bother adding an event map into the code, this is content bloat. It won’t be used all the time.
That's not really good logic, cult isn't run 24/7 so is it content bloat? .357 revolvers aren't used all the time, they're content bloat too! As long as the map/mode is in rotation then it's not content bloat.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by PKPenguin321 » #560487

MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode? Something like event maps that can voted on in the map pool along with the regular station maps. They probably wouldn't be expected to have full feature parity along with regular stations since they're designed with a specific mode in mind.
might be interesting but because the mode is known a meta would quickly develop
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #560540

Helios wrote:Meta doesn't need to be removed.
Meta is the simplest map. Meta is the 2fort. Meta is the easiest map as a player to learn, and as a player to teach.
Meta exists so when there's another event like sseth's video, we can teach the next generation how to play the game. If you start off a new player teaching them about multi level stations, or snowmeta, and they accidentally walk over a hole, and they die and get their body teleported deep into the snow, they're probably not going to stick around.
Fixed that for you.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Jack7D1 » #560569

Oh hey let's remove Metastation
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Megarop » #560579

oranges wrote:Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
oranges wrote:My standing advice to mappers is don't waste your time, nobody will appreciate what you do anyway.
Who are you even developing the game for if you don't enjoy making changes to the game, you don't like the people who actually play the game you maintain, and the majority of them don't like the changes you make to the game?

Also, the server literally has a rule that says "Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose." and if you ask them about it a lot the playerbase will just tell you outright that ss13 can not or should not be balanced. Surely having a "genuine desire to improve the balance" of a game like this is a lost cause and even if you did accomplish making ss13 some semblance of "balanced" people would find it less fun anyway.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by Flatulent » #560598

BeeSting12 wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
MMMiracles wrote:As a general question about future maps, what is the stance on the addition of a map with the concept that it's built in mind with a particular gamemode?
can’t you already load maps if you are admin? Why bother adding an event map into the code, this is content bloat. It won’t be used all the time.
That's not really good logic, cult isn't run 24/7 so is it content bloat? .357 revolvers aren't used all the time, they're content bloat too! As long as the map/mode is in rotation then it's not content bloat.
.357 revolvers can always be purchased if you are traitor, there is no element of chance that would lock you out of buying one. Cult can always roll as long as it’s enabled in config.

An event map may be completely forgotten or may overtake all other maps(and by extension, all other gamemodes) depending on the reception of the game mode. We have gamemode voting disabled, but voting for such a map would be a vote of secret/dynamic vs this new gamemode. Considering there are only so many maps coders can maintain(as oranges himself said in the map vote thread), this new event map would take place of an another map that could be played with any ruleset currently available on tg. Instead of having a choice between 5-6 maps if you want to play secret/dynamic, you now have a choice between 4-5. While it may not sound like such a big problem, today if Meta and Delta were removed from the map vote, you would have an option between Pubby and Box. That’s about it, really. Box is a buggy and badly designed mess and Pubby is a lowpop map.

There is also a problem of metaknowledge. Consider the following: imagine if there was a map that was designed exclusively for xenos. The entire crew knows xenoes are going to spawn. Roboticists will focus on mass-producing cheap mechs for the crew. Assistants will make acquiring bio hoods or other face covering helmets their top priority. A selective plasma flood may be prepared by atmospherics, provided that there won’t be any threat to crew. People will be more armed and prepared for xenos in comparison to an average round where crew wasn’t alerted that xenoes would spawn this round. The gamemode MUST be designed like warops, where crew is alerted roundstart that nukies are here to fuck shit up. But we all know how this plays out every time with war ops. People suicide all the time. Many don’t find warops fun, but since this new hypothetical game mode is announced before the round even begins, it being rolled guarantees some pop death, severity depending on reception of the game mode.
if you’re reading this please kindly suck my nuts
Mothblocks, winter 2021, “successfully” preventing bagil death with relevant data wrote:You seem to be under the fallacy that reinforcing that Bagil is a TDM shithole where you must carry bolas and spears on you at all times, while looking for the next valid to hunt down is a positive change to the server. I don't. The data suggests other people don't.
imsxz wrote:I give up there’s too many furries
cacogen wrote:i asked oranges how often he plays and he deleted the post
cybersaber101 wrote:Welp, you guys let a terrymin become a headmin, thousand years of darkness.
Vekter wrote:I jerk off Nist a bit too much but he's honestly one of the best silicon players on the server. B.O.R.G.O. is also pretty good.
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Re: Box Removal Discussion

Post by oranges » #560599

Megarop wrote:
oranges wrote:Only those with a genuine desire to improve the balance of the game, because players will tear their hair out about how you're ruining it when you rebalance anything.
oranges wrote:My standing advice to mappers is don't waste your time, nobody will appreciate what you do anyway.
Who are you even developing the game for if you don't enjoy making changes to the game, you don't like the people who actually play the game you maintain, and the majority of them don't like the changes you make to the game?

Also, the server literally has a rule that says "Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose." and if you ask them about it a lot the playerbase will just tell you outright that ss13 can not or should not be balanced. Surely having a "genuine desire to improve the balance" of a game like this is a lost cause and even if you did accomplish making ss13 some semblance of "balanced" people would find it less fun anyway.
Are you asking me? I enjoy the job
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