/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

That doesn't answer the question

I am pointing out to you that you didn't give two fucking shits about box until someone decided that actually maybe they want to play some other map, and then you have the gall to come out of the wood work and act like you care about box.

You OBJECTIVELY do not give a fuck about box, you haven't made a single IOTA of effort about fixing any of it's issues, you are a box defender only when it's easy and convenient for you.

It makes everything you say deeply suspect and hypocritical.

oranges wrote:That doesn't answer the question

I am pointing out to you that you didn't give two fucking shits about box until someone decided that actually maybe they want to play some other map, and then you have the gall to come out of the wood work and act like you care about box.

You OBJECTIVELY do not give a fuck about box, you haven't made a single IOTA of effort about fixing any of it's issues, you are a box defender only when it's easy and convenient for you.

No. I frequently defend box when it's brought up in any avenue. I've never gotten our mapmerger to work because I'm a brainlet (although I think you guys have updated it to make it more brainlet-friendly since), I've never really been able to actually contribute to mapping efforts, but that doesn't make me not care at all about box.

You're artificially moving the goalposts for what is required to support something, and I fail to see how "genuine" my support is matters.

I also agree with everything MSO said.

I think you also owe me an apology

I couldn't give two shits about if box stays or goes, but I'm not going to sit here in this thread and have a bunch of people who have done the bare minimum to save box, claim I'm doing some 300 iq plan to destroy it.

What bugs, though? The double-apc in one area that isn't game breaking?
The rest are not bugs, unless if I'm missing something.

The only thing I find objectionable about this is that Donut wasn't put on the chopping block first
Box is old and clunky and buggy and has design issues
It has a special place in all our hearts because it used to be The Station, but Meta and Delta are just objectively better at this point
Duplicate the brig and then take it out back behind the shed

oranges wrote:Still none of you are answering the question

Why are you only now interested in fixing box bugs when I've had negative feedback from people about how broken box is for at least a month, if not longer?

What bugs? There is not a single bug report with the mapping label about box station. I also searched "box" on the issue tracker and the only issue that came up is that the SM chamber is powered by magic. Someone made a fix PR, which was closed. Not sure if it was closed because it wasn't a bug or because the fix wasn't good, I didn't read that far into it. If box is so broken and has been for a month, then why is there not an issue report on the bug tracker? It would make it a lot easier to fix if I knew what the problem was, all I've heard is that "box is broken" which can mean a great deal of things. I haven't seen any game breaking issues on any of the rounds I've adminned/played on Boxstation lately. So yeah, I'm interested in fixing it all of a sudden because I've been made aware that there's a problem that noone has specified on github and noone seems interested in reporting/fixing.

I like having a map where antags trying to make a secret base are limited instead of having four luxury hotels one wall girder away.

My advice to all mappers

Don't bother making a station map, the players will vote for the old three maps over your map no matter what so your map will never succeed, or even be played very often.

You are wasting your time, learn from MMMiracles experience, just stick to making ruins.

confused rock wrote:I like having a map where antags trying to make a secret base are limited instead of having four luxury hotels one wall girder away.

This one is huge for me, setting up a cult base on meta is basically just picking one of the 100 maint rooms and dropping your shit which is lame, box bases get cool shit like falsewalls in the backup power room and building new maint rooms that keep the crew out

BeeSting12 wrote:

oranges wrote:Still none of you are answering the question

Why are you only now interested in fixing box bugs when I've had negative feedback from people about how broken box is for at least a month, if not longer?

What bugs? There is not a single bug report with the mapping label about box station. I also searched "box" on the issue tracker and the only issue that came up is that the SM chamber is powered by magic. Someone made a fix PR, which was closed. Not sure if it was closed because it wasn't a bug or because the fix wasn't good, I didn't read that far into it. If box is so broken and has been for a month, then why is there not an issue report on the bug tracker? It would make it a lot easier to fix if I knew what the problem was, all I've heard is that "box is broken" which can mean a great deal of things. I haven't seen any game breaking issues on any of the rounds I've adminned/played on Boxstation lately. So yeah, I'm interested in fixing it all of a sudden because I've been made aware that there's a problem that noone has specified on github and noone seems interested in reporting/fixing.

How did you miss the constant reports about it's powernet being broken half the time? Are you really that fucking disconnected?

oranges wrote: How do I ensure we continue to get new/unique maps in this system?

Why is this a hard requirement? Counterstrike players have been playing on the same pool of maps that only get small changes for decades, with some being more popular and some being less.
I wouldn't complain about a nice new or unique map but I'd be fine with playing Meta, Box and Delta for the most part and when, in essence, a removal of box would mean it's more likely I have to play Donut that's just, I dunno, not really interesting to me.

Counterstrike is nothing like ss13 terra, it's a competitive shooter.

oranges wrote:That doesn't answer the question

I am pointing out to you that you didn't give two fucking shits about box until someone decided that actually maybe they want to play some other map, and then you have the gall to come out of the wood work and act like you care about box.

You OBJECTIVELY do not give a fuck about box, you haven't made a single IOTA of effort about fixing any of it's issues, you are a box defender only when it's easy and convenient for you.

It makes everything you say deeply suspect and hypocritical.

This is ridiculous. Because people like a map they are then required to dedicate time working on it? What? This is people coming out of the woodwork to defend a map they like because you are forcing it onto their radar (or Actionninja is, to be specific), I don't understand how you can even pretend to be upset about these reactions. Nothing here is suspect or hypocritical.

Also

oranges wrote:My advice to all mappers

Don't bother making a station map, the players will vote for the old three maps over your map no matter what so your map will never succeed, or even be played very often.

You are wasting your time, learn from MMMiracles experience, just stick to making ruins.

People vote for good maps. Donut is just a bad map and thats why no one likes it. Kilo, on the other hand, we barely got to even play and it still beat out shitty maps like donut in the vote.

wesoda25 wrote:This is ridiculous. Because people like a map they are then required to dedicate time working on it?

Yes

wesoda25 wrote:

oranges wrote:My advice to all mappers

Don't bother making a station map, the players will vote for the old three maps over your map no matter what so your map will never succeed, or even be played very often.

You are wasting your time, learn from MMMiracles experience, just stick to making ruins.

People vote for good maps. Donut is just a bad map and thats why no one likes it. Kilo, on the other hand, we barely got to even play and it still beat out shitty maps like donut in the vote.

[/quote]
No, they vote for the maps they know, so again my advice is to not waste your time trying to map.

oranges wrote:Counterstrike is nothing like ss13 terra, it's a competitive shooter.

As if I don't know. The point is, if the majority of people are happy with the map pool, why do you feel a need to remove the maps they like and give them others? It's not very surprising that people will have mixed reactions to that approach, and you make it look like there's a need to change the map pool.

In a cruel twist of fate I agree with oranges on this
Nobody wants to play box
Nobody wants to fix box
Nobody wants to remove box
So what the fuck is the alternative, leave it to rot in the codebase?
If it were up to me it'd just be Meta and Delta on perpetual rotation because they're the two best maps (I also liked Kilo but I guess it was too buggy to live)

CDranzer wrote: Nobody wants to play box
Nobody wants to fix box
Nobody wants to remove box

Everything you just said was wrong.

If only there was a word that meant whatever hyperbole means

terranaut wrote:

oranges wrote:Counterstrike is nothing like ss13 terra, it's a competitive shooter.

As if I don't know. The point is, if the majority of people are happy with the map pool, why do you feel a need to remove the maps they like and give them others? It's not very surprising that people will have mixed reactions to that approach, and you make it look like there's a need to change the map pool.

Uh, because people shit on me for ages for leaving donut and and kilo in the map pool for ages?

Actually on that note, hang on, isn't the map rotation technically a question of policy? Why would you be getting shit for that?

Stop trying to make this personal oranges

half the people here made it about me wesoda

oranges wrote:half the people here made it about me wesoda

Call them retards

Maybe the scope of this thread is too small - I'm getting the impression that "Remove Box" is just the front face of a far bigger problem, namely "How should we handle multiple maps going forward". I wonder if discussion would have been this heated if the PR had been "Remove Donut".

That Pr exists, and is a function of the outcome of the map vote poll.

This is a thread because the PR for this specific change got digg brigaded.

I have tried to have a conversation about how we do maps going forward in multiple threads, but nobody ever wants to engage in the issue until something controversial happens.

If there supposedly was a fix made now for box's powernet, would it still be removed?

Critawakets wrote:If there supposedly was a fix made now for box's powernet, would it still be removed?

What I get from reading this thread is that it is box's lack of maintenance, straight up opposition to any "major" changes by more vocal parties, and similarities to other, more popular maps in the rotation that are the main problems. Yes, it would be nice if box's powernet was fixed, but that's the tip of the iceberg here. A fix doesn't mean the map is maintained.

If people want to keep box that badly, someone needs to be willing to take up the mantle and maintain it.
If people are going to oppose every change. Expect mappers to have no motivation whatsoever for maintaining box.

Also, stop blaming maintainers when it was the very playerbase that voted Kilostation, a months long DEAD map into 3rd place, over box.
It really says a lot.

why bother now?

If no one cba to fix supposedly GAME BREAKING issues for literal months why bother now?

If we have to threaten removal for people to fix crucial issues with the map it suggests the map isn't getting the attention it needs (and will continue to fail at this moving forward).

I might be biased but look how chemfactory was tacked on. Even first-pass plumbing meta room was better than the chemfactory box still has lol. It's crap and extremely low effort (I don't even think plungers are in there).

You cannot be mad at either oranges (for having the opinion he has of holding multiple maps) or actionninja (for PRing the removal) when this is how people treat "updating" non meta (double-meaning) maps.

Zytolg wrote:

Critawakets wrote:If there supposedly was a fix made now for box's powernet, would it still be removed?

What I get from reading this thread is that it is box's lack of maintenance, straight up opposition to any "major" changes by more vocal parties, and similarities to other, more popular maps in the rotation that are the main problems. Yes, it would be nice if box's powernet was fixed, but that's the tip of the iceberg here. A fix doesn't mean the map is maintained.

If people want to keep box that badly, someone needs to be willing to take up the mantle and maintain it.
If people are going to oppose every change. Expect mappers to have no motivation whatsoever for maintaining box.

Also, stop blaming maintainers when it was the very playerbase that voted Kilostation, a months long DEAD map into 3rd place, over box.
It really says a lot.

Even if maps are "maintained." that doesn't generate player interest.

The real issue is c*ders not porting the same features to all maps and only furthering the divide and I assume reasons to remove a map like MSO said.

Not all maps have the experimentor anymore simply because some of them removed it for the Bepis. Whilst others simply moved it to RND, and others removed the gun range for it. The last one makes the most sense because science no longer has weaponry.

It's an issue of equal map updates, and for that I say. I'd prefer the versatility of maps compared to coders creating new features and not adding them to all maps, being enough justification to take out the change of pace that is a new map.

It always gets too standardized and power gamed if you only have 3 maps in rotation, so you can easily tell where the weaknesses of the station lie, and where to find the best powergamer loot in maint. That makes the standard ss13 round dull and monotonous after a few hours. Compared to the different tricks ice-box can offer you compared to donut. Or meta to pubby.


Thus, my solution would be. Create a new policy that makes c*ders who decide to add new content instead of expand on existing old content, be forced to port it to all stations before it's test-merged/merged. That'll do us the good of not having maps with lack of codebase features and force coders who add new stuff instead of expanding on already barren job content not further push any divide between maps.

It'll also maybe have them focus on retooling and reworking old machines that no longer see the light. Because once more, that bepis could have always just been a re-configured experimentor and no map issues would have arose. Unlike it replacing it on some maps and removing it on others.

TLDR: Maintainers need a new policy. Otherwise maps are constantly going to be left in the dust due to coder L*zyness

oranges wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:This is ridiculous. Because people like a map they are then required to dedicate time working on it?

Yes

Does that mean the opposite is true and that you should be removed from any position related to maintaining code because you haven't played the game in forever?

Now, I know what your thinking

Anguishing C*der wrote:BUT SHADOW. No one wants to code more janitor content, yet you're asking me to make 5 different map updates for my idea? Are you kidding!1!1!

To that I say, there is a magical sweet alternative of "Late-Game Content." Most direly needed, but not yet in existence.

For example, I feel music would have had an easier time not adding any chemical lab chambers since they had all the necessary pieces in their variation of the RPD.

All they had to do was add their rapid chemical dispenser and pipes to a chemistry table, and maybe 20 minutes in, or an hour. The chemist would pick that up, go to the vacant office and start building.

Personal gimmicks are for what said rooms are for.

Let the players build your dang machines for you, itll keep them engaged for longer compared to having it roundstart. While it'll also do some good without setting maps apart for too much!

Even easier. Just add your new-fangled machine boards to the Tech Storage. No need to completely create any device that makes the building easier for them, considering how braindead easy building is already.


We get to keep unique maps with different gimmicks. Coders can add in new content that ALSO doubles as late-game content to keep long rounds engaging everyone wins. The hard-line policy of universal map updates for new content keeps everyone happy.

CDranzer wrote:Nobody wants to play box

3rd most played, 2nd first pick, 3rd in preferences. What do you mean?

Cobby wrote:why bother now?

If no one cba to fix supposedly GAME BREAKING issues for literal months why bother now?

There's no game breaking issues right now. If one happens the map can simply be configured out of the rotation until fixed.

oranges wrote:I have tried to have a conversation about how we do maps going forward in multiple threads, but nobody ever wants to engage in the issue until something controversial happens.

We have a vote, let's go through with it. Let's remove Donut and Kilo.
I love Kilo and would rather Pubby was removed, but we can always re-add it once/if the issues are fixed and review things as needed.

I understand mappers have put a lot of work on Donut and I appreciate it, it's a nice person, but the map concept itself has issues, and that translates into unpopularity, and removing it right now would generate exactly zero controversy unlike Box.

Cobby wrote:why bother now?

If no one cba to fix supposedly GAME BREAKING issues for literal months why bother now?

If we have to threaten removal for people to fix crucial issues with the map it suggests the map isn't getting the attention it needs (and will continue to fail at this moving forward).

I might be biased but look how chemfactory was tacked on. Even first-pass plumbing meta room was better than the chemfactory box still has lol. It's crap and extremely low effort (I don't even think plungers are in there).

You cannot be mad at either oranges (for having the opinion he has of holding multiple maps) or actionninja (for PRing the removal) when this is how people treat "updating" non meta (double-meaning) maps.

if people were content with it before, it was not game breaking, as you put it
if it was not game breaking, it was not perceived as urgent
now they have to "bother" because people are actively trying to remove the map (call it what you want but having a PR up to remove is as close as you can get to attempting a removal without actually removing it)
i dont understand why the maintainers in this thread feel the need to question the motives of people who just dont want to see the map removed

Rohesie wrote:
There's no game breaking issues right now. If one happens the map can simply be configured out of the rotation until fixed.

It can be removed until fixed too, which is effectively what happens when off config but ensures it only gets readded when the issues are addressed by putting it in the code realm instead of admin.

PKPenguin321 wrote: if people were content with it before, it was not game breaking, as you put it
if it was not game breaking, it was not perceived as urgent
now they have to "bother" because people are actively trying to remove the map (call it what you want but having a PR up to remove is as close as you can get to attempting a removal without actually removing it)
i dont understand why the maintainers in this thread feel the need to question the motives of people who just dont want to see the map removed

People were content with it because they can theoretically play meta/delta while they wait indefinitely for the fix. They weren't really content with the issue so much as they could simply ignore it.

Again, if people have to "bother" via a threat to removal to get fixes to the map done then it suggests it's not being maintained well. That said, I will apologize for going a bit off topic since the reason the PR is up is not because of issues with the map maintainability-wise.

I will say the one part about box I like is that it doesn't have resource bloat that a lot of other maps have. It would be nice if we could easy tally how much total items there are in a map and enforce a maximum on that end.

oranges wrote:

terranaut wrote:

oranges wrote:Counterstrike is nothing like ss13 terra, it's a competitive shooter.

As if I don't know. The point is, if the majority of people are happy with the map pool, why do you feel a need to remove the maps they like and give them others? It's not very surprising that people will have mixed reactions to that approach, and you make it look like there's a need to change the map pool.

Uh, because people shit on me for ages for leaving donut and and kilo in the map pool for ages?

So why is your response to the map popularity vote to leave donut in and talk about removing box? I don't get it. Yeah Donut has a unique map concept but that concept is shit and pretty universally disliked.

Box has a few things going for it such as less resource bloat and some interesting weak points in walls and such.

However one huge problem with box for me is the maint. It is bad, folks, like really bad. It feels barren and soulless. Especially compared to the pubby, delta and kilo maints. Many of the rooms make no sense.

I think it box we should learn from the good and aspects of box and should then put it out out its misery to a new map with a more interesting concept. There is so much lost potential if we limit our self to meta/delta/box of the time.

Alternatively if box must stay for some reason, it should be beautified and the maint should be redone, this has already been accomplished on several downstreams.

terranaut wrote: So why is your response to the map popularity vote to leave donut in and talk about removing box? I don't get it. Yeah Donut has a unique map concept but that concept is shit and pretty universally disliked.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/50730
I'm not really on either side of the discussion here, but a lot of people complaining about Donut in this thread would be better served by simply advocating for Box instead.

Farquaar wrote:

terranaut wrote: So why is your response to the map popularity vote to leave donut in and talk about removing box? I don't get it. Yeah Donut has a unique map concept but that concept is shit and pretty universally disliked.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/50730
I'm not really on either side of the discussion here, but a lot of people complaining about Donut in this thread would be better served by simply advocating for Box instead.

I've made some arguments for box, I'm just trying to understand oranges' behavior instead of just calling him a shitter like anyone else who disagrees with him

terranaut wrote: I've made some arguments for box, I'm just trying to understand oranges' behavior instead of just calling him a shitter like anyone else who disagrees with him

Fair enough.

in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something

bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something

Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.

I vote we just remove all the maps and replace it with an empty z-level. Noone around to bitch and moan if they all suffocate. No disagreements about maintenance being too small/big/cluttered/whatever either.


On a more serious note, box has always felt shit to me. Pre map vote, noone wanted to play box. Post map vote, noone wanted to play box. Post forced map rotation, box is the lesser evil and is therefore the 3rd most played map. That only really tells us people prefer box over donut/kilo/pubby, two of which are also hopefully in the process of getting removed.
Pubby fills box's niche better than box in my opinion, but it doesnt get the same love because its not shitty box station that all the boomers that dont play the game love solely because it was more popular when they used to.

For the record, box was the first map I played and learned to navigate. And while I thought box was better when I switched to playing on tg, that quickly changed when I played some actual good maps. I have been around for about 2 years now, nearing 3000 hours connected to the servers, and box is still shit.

Bottom line, box is not a good map. It is only "good enough" to some people because of nostalgia, and the fact they think it is not as bad as the alternatives. "not as bad" is not something we should celebrate and keep around in the codebase just because. Make better maps instead of clinging to this artifact of the past.

having an weak by design map isnt needed anymore as any traitor has a round ending tool called "syndicate bomb" which once placed in medbay or brig is gonna get it called which happens 70% of the time on any map, it doesnt even favour traitors as you are either in a giant room/hallway that came out by someone with a micro/macro fetish or in an indian burial ground maint where no one walks by,
BOX IS ONLY VOTED BY HUBBIES AS THE REST OF THE SHITSERVERS (beeniggers, yogniggers, hyppiyniggers) ARE BOXONLY SO THEY JUST CLICK THE MAP THEY KNOW, literally filter 5 month olds from the mapvotes and you ll see

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:having an weak by design map isnt needed anymore as any traitor has a round ending tool called "syndicate bomb" which once placed in medbay or brig is gonna get it called which happens 70% of the time on any map, it doesnt even favour traitors as you are either in a giant room/hallway that came out by someone with a micro/macro fetish or in an indian burial ground maint where no one walks by,
BOX IS ONLY VOTED BY HUBBIES AS THE REST OF THE SHITSERVERS (beeniggers, yogniggers, hyppiyniggers) ARE BOXONLY SO THEY JUST CLICK THE MAP THEY KNOW, literally filter 5 month olds from the mapvotes and you ll see

not every antag is a traitor and not every traitor wants to just speedrun the round end
i'm not even sure why i'm replying to a post this bad

why are defending a shitmap when you play 3 times/month? is it only people that dont play that want box?
https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/terranaut

SuperbDingaling wrote:

oranges wrote:

wesoda25 wrote:This is ridiculous. Because people like a map they are then required to dedicate time working on it?

Yes

Does that mean the opposite is true and that you should be removed from any position related to maintaining code because you haven't played the game in forever?

You have no play time at all

terranaut wrote:

Farquaar wrote:

terranaut wrote: So why is your response to the map popularity vote to leave donut in and talk about removing box? I don't get it. Yeah Donut has a unique map concept but that concept is shit and pretty universally disliked.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/50730
I'm not really on either side of the discussion here, but a lot of people complaining about Donut in this thread would be better served by simply advocating for Box instead.

I've made some arguments for box, I'm just trying to understand oranges' behavior instead of just calling him a shitter like anyone else who disagrees with him

This isn't my PR

I have some good memories of the map (I remember trying to club kat green to death in the lawyer's office on my first ever round), but honestly looking at the layout (https://tgstation13.org/wiki//images/d/ ... tation.png), I honestly have to agree with oranges - it's just meta but a bit mixed up.

A lot of people are saying it's easier to sabotage - but the AI upload is inside the bridge (not that meta is in an unsafe spot, but you at least have less doors to go through), the vault is attached to main halls, atmos is closer to everything else, the grav generator is bridge adjacent rather than in the middle of nowhere like meta, the AI sat is significantly more secure as you can't just stand right in front of the AI and be safe from all the turrets and there are a lot more of them to get past as well as more doors. You could argue that telecomms is easier to grief but frankly it's silicons that turn that off more often than not and it just makes it easier to fix being on station. Sure viro and xenobio aren't stranded out in space but how often are those priorities to break into?

Just looking at the map layout it looks like box kinda just cucks antags since most of the important parts of the station are cramped together or just seem more secure. Maint is kind of interesting in that it doesn't wind around the station nearly as well as meta and there are a number of areas in maint where it's much roomier and not just a bunch of caves.

terranaut wrote:

bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something

Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.

No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.

CPTANT wrote:

terranaut wrote:

bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something

Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.

No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.

So instead of having to design maps to have every feature, you now have to design the entire game around multiple maps having different features - this is an even worse problem. Instead of just making maps kinda painful to maintain, you're now developing several games at once.

CPTANT wrote:

terranaut wrote:

bandit wrote:in general I don't understand why we have to remove any maps at all, are we running out of space or something

Because every new feature has to be added to the maps like plumbing but doing it for 5 maps when only 2 are played is a waste of time and probably not very good for motivation of whoever did it.

No it doesn't, why do all maps need the same features? I would love to see more ACTUAL changes between maps instead of the same map just with the departments switched around a bit.

first impression is important on new PRs, plumbing not available on all maps slowed development of it and made it lose snowballing effect, other example is donut, it was so extremely bad at the start that now people will hate it even if you paste metastation on top of it, on a mapvote 90% of people will remember shockgrilles in maint, depowered departments, lack of everything and click on any map that isnt donut