/tg/Station 13

viewtopic.php?p=621266#p621266 ruled that taking a changeling's inert, vestigial brain and placing it in an MMI to see if it had life in it to check if they were a changeling was an exploit.
Exploits implies some sort of flaw or bug in the implementation of the changeling's nature, but this is all working as intended from a coder POV.
What are we supposed to do?

Make them work with MMIs again you cowards

Give Lings an alert box when their brain is put in an MMI that lets then talk through it

Doesn't this just extend the problem to putting the MMI in a borg?

At some point its multi mob control that truly hides this, but thats a road with its own coding and balance problems too.

Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 1:39 am Make them work with MMIs again you cowards

But then we wouldn't have headless lings and the LORE would be shattered

changelings don't need a test.

iain0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:11 am Doesn't this just extend the problem to putting the MMI in a borg?

At some point its multi mob control that truly hides this, but thats a road with its own coding and balance problems too.

Pretty much, which honestly, puts me in the admin issue camp.

I am having a hard time thinking of any workaround that would work, besides something intrusive like making it so ssd brains will not fit into MMI's, and having lings brains be in that category. Even that would have problems when the actual ling isn't ssd.

Or having the ling actually have its brain.

Admin log event when a ling brain is put in an MMI, if it doesn't already exist?

Think this is the only practical ask and administration remains the enforcement.

Hmm. Make MMI'ing the brain full-heal the ling and teleport them to a random station turf. It's dumb as hell but kinda undermines the identification if it also guarantees escape (?) There's probably better ideas but could the act of MMI-ing the brain be suitably disincentivised by such a penalty?

Exploit implies a code problem, yet it does not seem to have a code solution. It would make sense to enforce players not preforming temporary exploits, because they can be fixed. But the changeling MMI lasts forever in a limbo.
Its also a reasonable thing to do from a players perspective, and perhaps even from a in-character perspective. But because it's an antag test, and we can't have antag tests, it isn't allowed.

The only solutions I have so far seen outlined are:

Make the changeling's brain non-vestigial, nerfing them and breaking some lore
Stop considering it an exploit, also nerfing changelings and adding an antag test.
Have it do some wacky thing that is beneficial to the changeling, not removing it as an antag test but also maybe not have it be a ling nerf in the process
Insane multi-mob control shenanigans.

Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

The MMI test is the equivalent to the burning blood test in The Thing, and should be allowed.

Getting anyone to agree to having their brain removed is a difficult enough barrier to overcome to make it an acceptable method of detection.

Farquaar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:20 pm The MMI test is the equivalent to the burning blood test in The Thing, and should be allowed.

If we wanted a test like this, it should codified as an actual mechanic, and not a byproduct of janky code ("The brain violently rejects the MMI" or something, instead of the default message)
We don't want changeling tests in the codebase, so *shrug

Farquaar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:20 pm Getting anyone to agree to having their brain removed is a difficult enough barrier to overcome to make it an acceptable method of detection.

Dead people don't often consent to a brain test, and that's usually when it's done (to confirm, before you cremate them)

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This would be cool and would also make changeling roboticist a thing to fear.

AI should check for a sudden flux of borgs and blood leading into robotics maint. Along with a bunch of empty roboticist heads on the floor

It'd be even cooler if the changeling could use the power from the borg to incubate and allow the changeling to regenerate itself from it's brain. All of a sudden, a borg drops off the AI's list, and the thing returns.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

sounds fun to me, still gameable if no ghost rolls up though.

Probably better to just let the changeling go into the borg and then regenerate it's body at some point, blasting the borg body to bits

oh shit san had the same idea as me

san7890 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:40 pm It'd be even cooler if the changeling could use the power from the borg to incubate and allow the changeling to regenerate itself from it's brain. All of a sudden, a borg drops off the AI's list, and the thing returns.

no one would borg lings

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This could be gameable from the changeling's perspective as a roboticist changeling could set up a guillotine for themselves and create an army of borgs. Same goes for making the brain the equivalent of a phylactery, as lings could hide their brain anywhere they'd want.

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:57 pm

Farquaar wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:20 pm Getting anyone to agree to having their brain removed is a difficult enough barrier to overcome to make it an acceptable method of detection.

Dead people don't often consent to a brain test, and that's usually when it's done (to confirm, before you cremate them)

If you are killed and/or arrested under very reasonable suspicion of being a changeling, then the aforementioned difficult barrier has been overcome.

Kendrickorium wrote: ↑Fri Sep 16, 2022 9:55 am

san7890 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:40 pm It'd be even cooler if the changeling could use the power from the borg to incubate and allow the changeling to regenerate itself from it's brain. All of a sudden, a borg drops off the AI's list, and the thing returns.

no one would borg lings

But how would you know it's a ling?

This might be one of those situations where it just has to stay like it is and we have to rely on people adminhelping when it happens.

I like san and oranges' ideas though. Those sound like fun.

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This is the best idea I have ever heard.

Really reminds me of The Thing' where each part of the body acts independently.

Why don't we make it so if you take a blood sample from a ling and if you heat the container the blood reacts if the ling has taken x amount of abilities? I haven't looked at ling shit in a while but don't lings take more burn damage the more abilities they take? I feel like this would allow some plausible deniability for the ling to squirm out of being caught initially if they wait on taking abilities so their blood doesn't react

The reason not to take all of your abilities immediately as Changeling is to provide flexibility if you get into a surprise situation, but there isn't any other strong incentive preventing you from doing this and most new players would just pick all of their abilities instantly.

Drag wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:38 pm Why don't we make it so if you take a blood sample from a ling and if you heat the container the blood reacts if the ling has taken x amount of abilities? I haven't looked at ling shit in a while but don't lings take more burn damage the more abilities they take? I feel like this would allow some plausible deniability for the ling to squirm out of being caught initially if they wait on taking abilities so their blood doesn't react

no.

Fikou wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:47 pm

Drag wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:38 pm Why don't we make it so if you take a blood sample from a ling and if you heat the container the blood reacts if the ling has taken x amount of abilities? I haven't looked at ling shit in a while but don't lings take more burn damage the more abilities they take? I feel like this would allow some plausible deniability for the ling to squirm out of being caught initially if they wait on taking abilities so their blood doesn't react

no.

Then what, funny coder man.

A proven way of checking changeling status goes against the entire point of changelings

NoxVS wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:09 am A proven way of checking changeling status goes against the entire point of changelings

I've heard this for over a decade, and I'm not sure I believe it.
Unintentional ways to check changeling status is bad. A lot of games with changelings feature blood tests. Usually the changeling has an opportunity to destroy the blood tester, or compromise results in order to make someone else look guilty and avoid blame. As long as there is counterplay and opportunities for deception, a changeling test is fine.

Drag wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:10 am

Fikou wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:47 pm

Drag wrote: ↑Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:38 pm Why don't we make it so if you take a blood sample from a ling and if you heat the container the blood reacts if the ling has taken x amount of abilities? I haven't looked at ling shit in a while but don't lings take more burn damage the more abilities they take? I feel like this would allow some plausible deniability for the ling to squirm out of being caught initially if they wait on taking abilities so their blood doesn't react

no.

Then what, funny coder man.

idk sans and jacquerels ideas sound cool

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This seems like the best and easiest to code solution. Unfortunately the exploit will still exist if no one wants to take the ghost role

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:20 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This seems like the best and easiest to code solution. Unfortunately the exploit will still exist if no one wants to take the ghost role

changelings would be blowing their own heads off to get free allies

blackdav123 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:46 pm

BeeSting12 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:20 pm

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

This seems like the best and easiest to code solution. Unfortunately the exploit will still exist if no one wants to take the ghost role

changelings would be blowing their own heads off to get free allies

They'd still need to make a cyborg, it's just like a posibrain cyborg except you don't need to emag it and do need to behead yourself.
That said I'm not personally planning on coding this any time soon i have too many other ideas.

iain0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:10 pm Hmm. Make MMI'ing the brain full-heal the ling and teleport them to a random station turf. It's dumb as hell but kinda undermines the identification if it also guarantees escape (?) There's probably better ideas but could the act of MMI-ing the brain be suitably disincentivised by such a penalty?

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

SEC doesn't need more reasons to not bother borging dead people. Already bad enough the universally superior option is "toss the corpse into evidence, tell robotics to print an MMI".

mrmelbert wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 2:59 am Give Lings an alert box when their brain is put in an MMI

Alert: Want to be a brain?

Yes -> Stuff the ling's mind into the brain. Can't regenerate. Tough shit. Nobody else can tell you were a ling.
No -> Same result as now. Hope reviving stasis kicks in before they gib your body.

Zybwivcz wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:21 am

iain0 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 3:10 pm Hmm. Make MMI'ing the brain full-heal the ling and teleport them to a random station turf. It's dumb as hell but kinda undermines the identification if it also guarantees escape (?) There's probably better ideas but could the act of MMI-ing the brain be suitably disincentivised by such a penalty?

Jacquerel wrote: ↑Thu Sep 15, 2022 4:12 pm Putting an empty changeling brain into an MMI should grab a ghost and give it an objective (plus zero law in a borg) to obey and protect “the rest of its body”.

SEC doesn't need more reasons to not bother borging dead people. Already bad enough the universally superior option is "toss the corpse into evidence, tell robotics to print an MMI".

If we are being honest, most lings go loud especially since the ling chat is back. So just dont allow lings brains to be put into MMI's. A text could be generated such as "The brain seems to grow tentacles making it not be able to go into the interface" or something in those lines. Now since this post was on MRP im not to sure how that is because i'm a avid sybil player. On sybil lings go loud, i assume on MRP they dont go loud and stay stealth.

LeekiLoku wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:41 pm If we are being honest, most lings go loud especially since the ling chat is back. So just dont allow lings brains to be put into MMI's. A text could be generated such as "The brain seems to grow tentacles making it not be able to go into the interface" or something in those lines. Now since this post was on MRP im not to sure how that is because i'm a avid sybil player. On sybil lings go loud, i assume on MRP they dont go loud and stay stealth.

Saying it should have an explicit, hard tell that is sanctified in the code as "perform this action to definitively 100% get told that the person is a ling" is certainly... an opinion.
It's considered an exploit because people shouldn't be shoving brains into MMIs to see if they're lings, because it's not intended behaviour that ling brains in MMIs have a tell.

also we're not designing around changelings always going loud because we would ideally be incentivizing people to stay stealthy through other means

Don't Jellypeople already do multiple mob control? You just swap between bodies using a menu.

enginseer-42 wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:16 pm Don't Jellypeople already do multiple mob control? You just swap between bodies using a menu.

And it's a complete nightmare that breaks so much. The only reason it's not an issue is because of how rare it is.

NoxVS wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 10:07 pm

enginseer-42 wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 4:16 pm Don't Jellypeople already do multiple mob control? You just swap between bodies using a menu.

And it's a complete nightmare that breaks so much. The only reason it's not an issue is because of how rare it is.

Huh, interesting. Makes sense why it's such a pain to actually do if it breaks stuff.