/tg/Station 13

ITERATION 1: Organsystem Rewrite, Basic Dismemberment

• DONE - Rewrite organ code to use a dual-system of datums and items. The datums keep track of which organs a mob can have and whether they have them, while the items represent the actual physical organs.
• BUGGED -Add vars and update attack code to grant items the ability to dismember and behead people. All items have 7 variables for this purpose: two booleans can_dismember and can_behead, two thresholds dismember_threshold and behead_threshold that determine how much damage a limb must have before it can be dismembered, two probabilities dismember_prob and behead_prob that determine the chance an item dismembers/beheads upon contact if the boolean and threshold passed, and finally a boolean dismember_nobleed that determines if the weapon instantly cauterizes the wound upon dismemberment.
• DONE -Update changelings to let them regenerate limbs with fleshmend. Because of how monkeys work, they can also transform into a monkey and back to regenerate their limbs.
• IN PROGRESS - Update existing surgeries to accomodate the new system (this includes abductor). Add three new surgeries: one to amputate limbs, one to seal up open wounds caused by dismemberment, and one to install new limbs. Existing augmentation surgery will continue to exist.

I put the old post under a spoiler for your convenience.

Gettin cautiously hype, you go gurl

waiting for godot.exe

Esword amputation - Deals massive stamina damage, does like 30 brute and it prevents bleeding. Instant limb separation.

Do not copy Bay's system, it's incredibly boring looking - It also has no special sounds. Instead, look to Lifeweb, where limb removal is visceral and crippling and makes horrid sounds.

My PRs and Branches are open to you, take what you need.

However I am sad face that I will never be able to silence the demons now... I cri

Scones wrote:Do not copy Bay's system, it's incredibly boring looking - It also has no special sounds. Instead, look to Lifeweb, where limb removal is visceral and crippling and makes horrid sounds.

Hard to copy a system that's not available.

It took me only 5 minutes of testing Baycode to find a bug with their system - if you remove the ID card from your PDA with the verb, it can end up in a hand you don't have.

MisterPerson wrote:

Scones wrote:Do not copy Bay's system, it's incredibly boring looking - It also has no special sounds. Instead, look to Lifeweb, where limb removal is visceral and crippling and makes horrid sounds.

Hard to copy a system that's not available.

I meant conceptually.

Bay has really boring and non-noticeable text, and limbs actually are not that big a deal. I've had arms blown off and still been able to just be like "haha i fite u"

Limbs go off in the good fortress Ravenheart, you collapse from pain and had better pray someone bandages and gets you to a medical professional. You cannot walk w/o a crutch/crawling if you're missing a leg. Two-handed things become unusable because monoarm. Cone of vision is restricted with one eye (But we don't have monodirectional vision so it's irrelevant)

How do you plan on dealing with blood loss from chopped off limbs? You can't really slap a bandage on a gaping hole in your shoulder.

AdenAbrafo wrote:How do you plan on dealing with blood loss from chopped off limbs? You can't really slap a bandage on a gaping hole in your shoulder.

Arterial ruptures should be treated in Medbay by sutures. A bandage can only be a temporary patch - It stops bleeding, but blood will soak through if you don't rebandage, and eventually it will be fatal if left untreated.

I assumed so but there are no sutures and it seems like stitches have become nonexistent in the ss13 universe. I'm also not sure if the medical code is robust enough to have wounds bleed through bandages. Just some things the OP should think about.

Please stop saying we should copy anything from lifeweb, lifeweb a shit

NikNakFlak wrote:Please stop saying we should copy anything from lifeweb, lifeweb a shit

Just because you don't like lifeweb doesn't mean it has some mechanics which are good.

The medical system in lifeweb is pretty nice and I wouldn't mind it being looked at as a model for medbay changes.

NikNakFlak wrote:Please copy everything from lifeweb, lifeweb is the shit

Fixed.

NikNakFlak wrote:Please stop saying we should copy anything from lifeweb, lifeweb a shit

You personally disliking a game for the people who play it really has no place in a thread regarding mechanics.

I've already said I want to approach this in iterations. I think the main reason why Dismemberment never made its way in was because the number of subsystems associated with it is daunting.

In the first iteration, I just want people to be able to chop off limbs in the system that is already in place, and replace them with robotic parts. I'll see about making you bleed if you're missing a limb, but anything more complicated is up for a future iteration.

That said... I definitely like the idea of dismemberment being hard to treat. It would make weapons with dismembering abilities a completely new threat.



Anyway... I ran into my first big obstacle: beheading. Right now a human is a container for their limbs: two arms, two legs, a chest and a head. So if you chop any of those organs off, you remove them from the human. But since your brain is located in your head, that should be where the centre of your being is. If you chop someone's head off, their ghost does not stay in their chest, but moves to their head. This brings with it another problem: I can't just throw the other limbs out of the organ list when I chop a head off, because then chopping off a head would somehow also chop arms and legs off your chest. I'm thinking hard about a solution for this, maybe I'll have to make the limb system more complicated like Bay's, with parent and child limbs.

Can't you make the torso a container and have the four limbs inside that? Then the torso can be inside the head.

That's what I was originally gonna go for, but I think I've come up with a simpler system.

Currently brains consist of two parts: a brain mob, which is a subtype of mob/living/carbon, and a brain item, which is a subtype of obj/item/organ. The brain mob is contained in the brain item. Since beheading someone is not all that different from debraining them (you're still severing the connection between the brain and the rest of the body), I can use this system to turn severed heads into brain mobs, which means that a severed head works like a disembodied brain, just without the ability to stuff it into a MMI. All the head item needs is a proc that lets you pop out the brain with a circular saw or something.

Or you could attach a power cell to it.

Man! Would killing your target and attaching their head to a powercell on an escape shuttle to gloat still count as a win for your objective?

Also murderboning the station and turning them all into animated heads when

I've added the necessary code to /obj/item/organ/limb/head/, they can now contain a brain mob and a brain, will transfer identities and brains properly, and you can cut out the brain with a circular saw (and stuff a new brain back in if you'd really want to).


I've also got Bay's approval to port their wheelchair, although they warned me that I should check if Mloc ported his updated buckling code first. Does anyone know anything about that?

Ricotez wrote:I've already said I want to approach this in iterations. I think the main reason why Dismemberment never made its way in was because the number of subsystems associated with it is daunting.

Maybe for the old coders, for me it was Merge conflicts all the way, especially the last iteration.

Ricotez wrote: I can't just throw the other limbs out of the organ list.

You should not be removing the organs from the organ list at all! The way we calculate health atm is (maxhealth - the damage each limb has taken) which means with that limb gone you permanently heal the maxdamage amount of that limb. (Trust me, I've written 3 SS13 dismemberments at this point)
You can use the same /type of limb, but you can't use the same instance of limb, you have to make a "dummy" and copy the information over (this proc is in all my 3 systems and PRs and it's ALSO in the mini update I did to augments last week, so it should be merged by the time you need it)

Ricotez wrote: I should check if Mloc ported his updated buckling code first. Does anyone know anything about that?

I ported Mloc's buckling rewrite.

Remie Richards wrote:

Ricotez wrote: I can't just throw the other limbs out of the organ list.

You should not be removing the organs from the organ list at all! The way we calculate health atm is (maxhealth - the damage each limb has taken) which means with that limb gone you permanently heal the maxdamage amount of that limb. (Trust me, I've written 3 SS13 dismemberments at this point)
You can use the same /type of limb, but you can't use the same instance of limb, you have to make a "dummy" and copy the information over (this proc is in all my 3 systems and PRs and it's ALSO in the mini update I did to augments last week, so it should be merged by the time you need it)

Yeah I've already been brainstorming about a way to approach this problem. Instead of removing a limb from the organ list I can set its status to ORGAN_DESTROYED, but I do have to decide what to do about damage.

How about this? If a limb is forcefully ripped off, its status is set to ORGAN_DESTROYED and you suffer max brute damage for it. Then when you receive the necessary surgery to close the wound, the status is changed to ORGAN_REMOVED and its damage is healed. (Or you have a robotic limb installed which would set the status to ORGAN_ROBOTIC.)

I almost think it would be easier to have Bay's dual system of organ datums that keep track of organ stats, and organ objects that present the actual physical organs.

Remie Richards wrote:

Ricotez wrote: I should check if Mloc ported his updated buckling code first. Does anyone know anything about that?

I ported Mloc's buckling rewrite.

Thanks a ton, makes porting the wheelchair easy as pie.

Ricotez wrote: How about this? If a limb is forcefully ripped off, its status is set to ORGAN_DESTROYED and you suffer max brute damage for it. Then when you receive the necessary surgery to close the wound, the status is changed to ORGAN_REMOVED and its damage is healed. (Or you have a robotic limb installed which would set the status to ORGAN_ROBOTIC.)

Well the way I always did it was that ORGAN_ROBOTIC and ORGAN_DESTROYED (and _FINE etc.) were in two separate variables.
(state and status, up to you but I felt it made it easier to check what we were actually looking for)

Flagging it in some way as "DESTROYED AND HURTING" and "REMOVED" is good and should be fairly close to how I was doing it (Which our organ system is set up for atm)

Limb removal should seriously fuck you in the ass and make getting around and doing stuff a lot harder, but don't make it too much of a hassle to deal with once you crawl your ass to medbay.
The last thing you want it medbay's wild ride, because it completely disrupts the round when all the important folks who tend to get hurt spend their time just waiting for medbay to finish their shit instead of being active with whatever is going on.

That said, it probably shouldn't be too easy to just completely reverse the effects of a dismemberment by slapping on a fake limb or whatever.
There should probably be a few stages of treatment that you could choose from. Slapping on a gauze would stop the bleeding (if you do end up adding that) for set amount of time, then you could actually close the wound and leave it at that, maybe add a crutch or wheelchair so the people can sort of move around normally, and then you have re-attaching the limb/augs. Augs should probably not be automatically stocked in medbay, but robotics shouldn't take over medbay's job either. Maybe make it so augmentations don't take cyborg parts anymore, and add unique limbs that have to be researched in RnD or something.

Also, don't be suprised when people start complaining about getting chopped up and hid around maint by esword antags.

Holy fuck i want a gun arm implant, Barret style

Or at least a metal armblade.

No, Medbay's wild ride is fun. Not everyone survives.

I want to get two sword arms and become valid man, useless for anything but harvesting them sweet valid kills with my blades of justice

I'm currently in the middle of rewriting the organ system entirely. I'm adapting Bay's system of matching datums with actual objects, but written from scratch for our codebase so I can perform my own modifications. Here's my reasoning:

The big advantage of a dual system is that I can give mobs their own "organ system" of organ datums that defines which organs they CAN have without necessarily giving them those organs. In the current iteration I will only implement this for humans, but I'm trying to write it in such a way that it's easily expandable, and it should not be hard to add organ data for snouts and tails, or give xenos and monkeys their own organ systems.

Every organ datum stores 2 very important variables that link it to the real world: the type path to the organ (and subtypes) that it speaks about, and a reference to the specific organ. In practice this means that a human's l_arm datum "reserves" a place in a human where every l_arm (and subtype such as l_arm/robotic or in the future l_arm/xeno) can go, and stores specifically the l_arm that that human has (or does not have).

In addition, organ datums keep track of parents and children, which lets me define which organs depend on which other organs. Right now chest is the big parent to all other limbs as well as the heart and the appendix, and head is the parent to the brain. The advantage here is that I can separate arms into arms/hands and legs into legs/feet down the line, and even add more organs to different other organs. Maybe a changeling's gland organs should be stored in its hands so you can cut them off to neutralize it? That's the kind of stuff I want to be possible in the future. (If I ever end up updating changelings I'll give them the ability to regrow organs too, of course.)

Now I haven't tested any of this yet, so please understand that this is all subject to change. I am doing my best but it is a much bigger rewrite than I had initially planned for the first iteration, and I might have to stick with just updating to a dual system and save the actual dismemberment for the second iteration.

You are a God Rico

GTA 5 will be waiting for you

Don't talk too soon. For whatever reason with the new system mobs no longer pass brain checks. As far as the game is concerned, everyone is brainless.

And I can't seem to fix it, it's maddening.


EDIT: Nevermind, it's fixed.

Everyone always was brainless to begin with.

DemonFiren wrote:Everyone always was brainless to begin with.

perhaps we are better that way

The new organ system appears to be working, as soon as I finish all the checks for arms and legs and shit I will port RemieRichards' new overlay-based human rendering system and from there on out it's just a matter of adding dismemberment techniques.

As I've said there will be special surgeries related to that, but when you say "I want dismemberment" what you actually mean is "I want to chop people's heads off with an esword". I will probably introduce two different types of dismemberment that are not surgeries: the ability to chop a limb off of someone who's down on the floor (slow but 100% success rate if you finish it), and the ability to chop a limb off in combat (instantaneous but chance-based). An example of a weapon that can do the first one but not the second is the kitchen knife, an example of a weapon that can do both is the esword.

So which weapons do you guys want to be capable of just the first one and which of both?

On a related node... I've considered making eswords have a higher than usual chance to dismember someone, but in return they instantly cauterize and seal the wound so the victim does not suffer from the extra damage of a ripped off limb. What do you guys think of that? Or should eswords work like any other dismembering weapon?

Gotta be able to blow limbs off with shotgun slugs/other suitably powerful guns (low chance though).
Explosions sending limbs flying is also great.

Just stick to things that would make sense and you're sweet. Swords, knives, axes, saws, mining drills (oh god) etc would all be good to have varying levels of limb lopping.

Random limb cutting in combat should be pretty hard to do, and probably shouldn't work on the head.
Aside from Esword, only fireaxe and maybe surgical saw come to mind.
I like the idea of Esword cauterizing the wound.

And as for stun and chop, you could either have it be anything up from glass, but have it be so that sloppier items take much more time to work.
Or just limit it to semi uncommon items like kitchen knife, hatchet etc.

I like the cauterizing idea. It would be cool if you could cauterize your own missing limb as a stopgap before you get to medbay.

Also for admin purposes the energy axe should 100% lop off limbs like nobody's business.

I think items that can cut you in combat with a chance should have a much higher chance if the person is lying down, allowing for violent chopping

Don't you think system where you can lose limbs in combat, instead through separate deliberate action (amputation) only, will be abused as hell?

"The Clown kept slipping and honking me, so I robusted him few times, but then his arm fell off. Well he can't honk now.".

Theclowncannothonkifyoudisablehishand.jpg

inb4 medbay balance is completely fucked again :^]

Oh don't forget the Butcher cleaver you get from a hacked kitchen vendor

Lumbermancer wrote:Don't you think system where you can lose limbs in combat, instead through separate deliberate action (amputation) only, will be abused as hell?

Yeah, that is exactly why I want to put an extreme limit on which items can do it. If you think about it, the only easily accessible weapon that would be powerful enough to dismember in combat is the fire axe, and there are only 2 of them on the station. Any other weapon (katana, esword, cult blade) is either antag only or even harder to get.

To balance accessibility of dismemberment against how easy it is, I came up with the out of combat system. My idea is to let you drag an item from your hand to the person on the ground, which will give you a window "Are you sure you want to dismember [target zone]?" If you click yes, you start the dismemberment procedure (which would take different time depending on the weapon you use), and if you succesfully finish it, you dismember that limb. The time for common items like glass shards (if they get it at all) would be so long that it's only feasible if your target is already dead. And you need to use the surgical procedure if you don't want to leave a massive wound that inflicts permanent damage on your victim.

All of this is just an idea, of course. That's why I want player input.

Dismemberment should just have a force threshold. I personally think the LMG on Bay blowing arms off is hilarious and fun for all parties involved.

NikNakFlak wrote:Please stop saying we should copy anything from lifeweb, lifeweb a shit

Truly a very unbiased thought of mind right here.

Scones wrote:Dismemberment should just have a force threshold. I personally think the LMG on Bay blowing arms off is hilarious and fun for all parties involved.

Blame it on microgravity and lack of bone density I guess.

I can't say I'd be too much of a fan of the click and drag system. Only because I can imagine people trying to cut off the arms of anyone they can get away with, most of which will probably be anyone that has disconnected.

I do like that cauterize idea with the esword, hell it'll even give everyone a chance to think of other ways to seal wounds. Got a lighter or a welder? Take some burn damage and some time to fix it!

Scones has a good idea with the force threshold. Maybe certain weapons over a set amount of brute has a small chance to dismember? That chance could even be higher for weapons it would make sense on, like the axe or esword.

Revolvers should meet the threshold for head-blasting.

Am I weird for wanting tail amputations for lizards, but worried that shitters will do it EVERY ROUND.

I finally finished updating my branch to the latest version of the code, after creating a huge mess that made it impossible for me to easily see the conflicts. So now it's back to working on the actually important stuff. The health doll updates properly now and has new rules and sprites. The blue full health and grey dead dolls are now not full sprites but limb-based as well, and instead the UI draws a very faint "ghost image" of the doll that it overlays the doll's limbs on. In addition there's a red outline that flashes on and off if the limb is ripped off but the wound still open, and the UI renders nothing at all over the "ghost image" if the limb is properly removed.

I'm still working on adding RemieRichard's new overlay rendering system. Right now it renders nothing, so everyone is invisible. I haven't figured out what I fucked up yet but I'll find it. In addition I'm slowly working my way through testing my system in all sorts of ways and updating parts of the code that break. It's a slow and frustrating process and I am very worried that I'll miss something that causes major trouble once the code is on the server, but that's just part of it.

ThanatosRa wrote:Am I weird for wanting tail amputations for lizards, but worried that shitters will do it EVERY ROUND.

I do plan to move tails to the system at some point, but that's for a future iteration. I'm not even sure about my approach yet. I wanted to turn them into full-fledged limbs with damage stats, but that would bring a whole new bunch of nightmares with it because I'd also need to add a new targeting zone, et cetera. I'll probably just have tails show up on the health doll if you have one, and make them share stats with your chest damage-wise. Again, all in a future iteration, for now tails are perfectly fine in the mutant bodypart system.

Today I came up with a new idea to balance dismemberment. I haven't implemented anything yet, so let me know what you think of this.

Every weapon that can dismember has a damage threshold. The damage on the limb has to be at or above that threshold before that weapon can dismember it. Right now the brute damage that a destroyed limb counts for is lower than the max damage of an attached limb, so if you dismember a badly damaged limb you actually increase someone's health, but...
Anyway, to give a few examples: for eswords this value would be 0. For fireaxes maybe 0 or something low like 10 or 20. For botanist hatchets it could be something like 40-50, and for bonesaws maybe 70-75 (the cap on arms and legs) since they can be mass-produced in autolathes.

Maybe we should exclude heads from most items, though.