[Deleted] Transparency as a whole

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NikNakFlak
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Transparency as a whole

Postby NikNakFlak » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:35 am #478167

Bman has a debate somewhat touching on this, but this is less about logs, less about public ban discussion and more about the overall system.

It is my personal opinion that most headmins have been complete trash about transparency, it's a meme that's thrown around every election it seems and it seems to only have gotten worse.
From the scandal at the beginning of the headmin term with bluespace to just in general hush hush politics being the norm, transparency is the biggest joke.

Obviously public bans and more public logs has a part, but just in general, communication has always been an issue. There's been some posts about headmins explaining "situations that have happened" but it's varied and some headmins are better than others. Discuss!
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MortoSasye
 
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby MortoSasye » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:13 am #478190

Transparency is something that always gets promised and while it would be beautiful if we could achieve it… it simply isn't possible for a number of circumstances. For example, delicate subjects that can’t be spoken out of privacy (doxxing, harassment, suicidal behavior from a player, etc).

I would like to promise transparency, but I don’t like making promises I know I can’t fulfill.
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby elyina » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:45 am #478215

This is a problem that needs to be tackled one way or another. From the other side, the "resolved in tgsleads" meme is really irritating to see. Something that I also found to be greatly annoying is when there is something important happening, and all headmins are dead silent talking about it with each other in a secret channel while the rest of adminbus is left guessing. Bluespace got a raw deal and it being explained to the public with a one liner "We've chosen not to continue Bluespace's candidacy." was deeply antithetical to the vaunted "transparency" the candidates had promised.
I will push to get the rest of the bus involved in important decisions as much as it is practically possible, give detailed explanations for these decisions in auditorium, and work to include the players in these decisions where possible through in game opinion polls.
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Hulkamania
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby Hulkamania » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:56 am #478223

I agree with elyina a lot on this one. I'm not entirely sure I'd even want tgsleads to stay around if I had any say in the matter. I appreciate having a platform for a new headmin to ask questions on the technical end (how do I do X) but I don't like it existing for policy questions (what do you guys think about X).

The buck is supposed to stop with headmins, and shouldn't bring other parties into it unless it's brought forth between the admin team as a whole. The admin team deserves to at least have a say in all administrative matters they can. The caveat there is that the headmins reserve the right to make a decision that isn't necessarily in line with the admin team as a whole, but the team should at least be able to take the team they work with into part of the process.

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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby iamgoofball » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:41 am #478239

i am the only candidate who will actually even attempt to follow through on any kind of transparency, the rest of the candidates are status quo cronies

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subject217
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby subject217 » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:00 am #478419

It depends on what sort of transparency you're talking about. Transparency to admins from the headmins and transparency to players from the admins are two very different things. In the #tgs-leads thread I explained how I think that sort of thing should be used. All anyone seems to be talking about in this thread is #tgs-leads, so I'll paste my reply from that thread.

I think the vast majority of concern that admins have with #tgs-leads is that it's used to exclude them from conversations where their input is valuable, which has been the case on multiple occasions in the past. But I don't think the answer is to remove it entirely. I think the answer is to handle it correctly and rationally as a headmin and keep the bigger picture in mind, and the wishes and concerns of the admin team. That being said, I can absolutely understand why it's valuable to have a channel exclusively of former headmins when it comes to dealing with things like admin drama, wherein it obviously can't directly be discussed with the entire admin team.

Beyond that, I think the headmins have a reasonable obligation to respect the privacy of people involved in incidents that not everyone is privy to. This needs to be balanced with oversight from the admin team, in that all we're going to get without specific explanations is vague and ambiguous ban notes, usually. Which partially have to be so ambiguous because they are shown to the person being banned. I've seen the same things in recent times that you have NikNak and I've felt the same frustration. Given that experience, I believe that I understand what is necessary as far as oversight from the admin team is concerned - i.e. explicit explanations of what happened and why to the greatest extent possible without compromising the privacy of the people involved.
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby D&B » Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:10 am #478423

Sadly due to current and past events involving strong backlash regarding administrators from people banned and delicate situations that would only explode in drama, I don't believe it is prudent to promise a rework in transparency until a more safe framework to ensure the safety of the volunteers that uphold the rules is in place.

I do believe a banned person and those involved should be able to request and receive information about their process, circumstance and relevant information.
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Nervere
 
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby Nervere » Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:51 pm #480640

I entered this term with big dreams about making everything as open as possible, most admin interactions shown to the public, and similar ideas. The unfortunate truth that I came to find out is that this sort of transparency is not possible.
Transparency in a community like ours is a good thing. It's a way of showing the players that no abuse is happening, and that those in power are using their powers in the ways that are intended.
The problem with this is that transparency has a cost, and quite serious ones at that. Let me give some examples for which more transparency would have vastly negative consequences:

• Public adminbus - This is something I see proposed a lot for transparency. It's something I once wanted to do, too. There's a lot wrong with this, though. Firstly, adminbus is a very trustful environment. Admins get along well and trust each other with some personal information that they may not in other places. If adminbus channels were completely opened to the public eye, the personal security of admins who once trusted the place as a safe environment would be violated.
True, the channel could be wiped and a new public adminbus opened up, but this presents another issue: no one would use it. Part of the success of adminbus is that admins feel safe sharing details about matters in our community that may be private, sensitive, or otherwise embarrassing so that we can work on these issues to improve our community. If this channel were public, these issues would go unaddressed out of fear or shame, and our ability to address serious issues would greatly diminish.

•Public ASAY logs - The reason ASAY logs must remain private is much the same as adminbus. When dealing with bans, notes, players, etc., a common point of discussion is IPs, notes, and information that may otherwise be considered sensitive. It's vital for us as administrators to keep this information secure, and as such, the channels in which they're most commonly discussed shouldn't be open to the public. At any time under such a system, an administrator could accidentally reveal sensitive information such as an IP address, and then it'd be in the public logs forever.

In my term, I have tried to be open as possible about the things I do. I post in the config changes thread whenever I edit something, I make announcements frequently in Discord so that the players are in the loop, and I have always tried to discuss my upcoming policy ideas and changes with the players before we change anything. I have come to the conclusion that transparency is a goal to strive towards, but complete transparency is never possible.

What is the alternative, if not complete transparency?
The ideal scenario for transparency in our community falls to a personal responsibility for our headmins. They must announce their intentions before acting, they must seek community approval on ideas before they implement changes, and they must strive to not conceal information relevant to the community, so long as personal safety and the integrity of adminbus is not at risk.

Most importantly:
Do not be swayed by those who promise complete transparency in everything.
This is a mistake I made in my term, and they are doomed to repeat it. The reality is that complete transparency comes at the sacrifice of the personal safety of players, and the efficiency of the administration.
No good headmin would be willing to sacrifice either of those.

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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:37 am #480649

Lol if you think we're going to just make the existing channel visible

It'll get archived then a NEW adminbus channel will get made.

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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby subject217 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:30 am #480684

And nobody would use the new adminbus. And everyone would use PMs. And if you actually went through with your nonsense about deadminning people who talk about admin matters privately you would get shut down by both of the other headmins and MSO if for some reason they let you get that far to begin with, which they wouldn't.
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iamgoofball
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby iamgoofball » Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:23 am #480691

subject217 wrote:And nobody would use the new adminbus. And everyone would use PMs.

So what you're saying is that you're admitting you and others would deliberately go underground just to avoid being held accountable to players? Seems pretty corrupt, fam. Almost like you're afraid of something if players find out what goes on in admin chat.

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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby subject217 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:32 am #480713

I'm not going to take passive aggressive unfounded platitudes about "nothing to hide" seriously. There are blatantly obvious reasons why adminbus is private. It's used for a number of private things, the most directly relevant to the game one being that it is oftentimes used to collect extra advice on current tickets, ongoing issues in the community, and things of that nature. If adminbus were public then private discussion would simply be shifted to other channels, or we would lose a very valuable admin tool, especially for new admins.
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby wubli » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:24 am #481326

It's easy to promise transparency until you actually become an admin, or a headmin.
I don't disagree with public bans. I completely disagree with public adminbus. If an admin needs to talk about a ticket, because they want help, they should be able to do it - and other admins should be able to help them. If adminbus is public, anyone could find out what's going on in the round - this is pretty simple.
There have been leaks in adminbus. Sometimes, things are discussed by headmins in their different channel, or in tg-leads, because as far as I know, nothing has been leaked from there (I only recently got access, until now, I was as lost as everyone regarding them). I do not think this is wrong - but I do think there have been situations -that people here have talked about- in which it wasn't necessary to talk about it there.
If it involves personal information, and regards stuff like doxxing, I do not think transparency will do any good. This does not mean people will be banned or blacklisted without investigation - but I think we underestimate how harmful and hard to prove it is. I don't blame headmins who have made mistakes, and I don't blame innocent people who got banned because of it and were upset.
I have no interest in hiding stuff from players or other admins - but I think it's a necessary thing at times. I have always said this, it's not the opinion I have just because I was picked for headmin. I consider myself a honest person, and saying you'll be 100% transparent is just a blatant lie. You won't, and it's not wrong, as long as it doesn't mean you'll hide things maliciously.
I don't want to mix up two topics, but I believe community meetings are a very good way of achieving transparency. Communication between admins and players builds trust.
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MrStonedOne
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Re: Transparency as a whole

Postby MrStonedOne » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:00 am #481372

iamgoofball wrote:
subject217 wrote:And nobody would use the new adminbus. And everyone would use PMs.


So what you're saying is that you're admitting you and others would deliberately go underground just to avoid being held accountable to players? Seems pretty corrupt, fam. Almost like you're afraid of something if players find out what goes on in admin chat.


People want to communicate, people hate having to censor/filter themselves, and in general people hate friction when it comes to communication.

Lets approach this from another angle.

Would you consider it appropriate for an admin to publically laugh at and mock and put on blast a new player for not knowing how to do something?

As an admin, would you personally want to do that to a new player in a way that discourages them from continuing to learn?

If a police officer got on the news to detail about how drunk some guy is, and how stupid he was being, to laugh at him, would you consider that appropriate use of police resources?

Because it sounds to me like you want that happen. It sounds like you want admins to spill the beans about every minor ahelp on how to do some stupidly simple thing to the masses, turning every ahelp into a public mocking fit when they discuss that ahelp later. Almost like you're trying to encourage bullying. I'm lying of course. It doesn't really sound like that, but I just wanted to take a quick breather from my main point to show you why jumping to hyperbolic conclusions is stupid. Everybody here knows you're really just salty you can't see what's said in there. Whoops more hyperbolic conclusions. Back on to the main point.

We can agree that admins using their position to mock a player is bad. The thing is admins generally don't want to do that. They don't want to call attention to somebody for ahelping something simple, or for that stupid prey they did that was out of character begging for light antag status. But they do want to discuss those things that happened. I know you used to work fast food, So I know you know what I'm talking about.

Talking as an admin to another admin in an admin only space removes all the friction of remembering to not publicize private details about players. It also allows you unwind with your admin buddies, and provides a way of coping with the stress.


Also, for the record, I fucking hate discord, and tried to ban admins discussing admin things in discord, making them come to irc. Any guesses how well that worked?
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