Debugger Rank

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Qustinnus
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Debugger Rank

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:25 pm #592542

I'm feeling fucking MIRRING today so I'm going to open this can of worms again because it went great last time

what are your opinions on giving coders the ability to be debugger? It'd be a rank that focuses on investigating/fixing issues on the live server, which is something which is extremely tedious for us sometimes because it requires us to:
1. Find a person willing to give the rank
2. An admin to babysit us.

This means that 9/10 times when someone like me prs something, and something breaks or the PR needs to be monitored in general, I need to be lucky enough to find people who can do those things, over the span of multiple rounds. It's highly inefficient and I've had troubles finding/reproducing bugs because I can't actually check whats wrong on the server (which is where it's easiest to find/reproduce bugs due to player count)

The argument for this term was that the following issues with such a rank existed:
1. If they could be trusted why not make them admin (In my proposition for it they would not have any administrative power and should stay out of any non bug-related ahelps/issues, functioning purely as a code jannie)
2. If they could be trusted why not make them maint (who have a way larger workload / expectation and aren't comparable)
3. What if they abuse their powers (This seems redundant to me as admins can do the same)

Do you think these problems are valid? Do you think this rank is something you'd consider doing? If not why are you against it?



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Timberpoes
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Timberpoes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:16 pm #592550

I feel this falls entirely within the realm of the coders, to me.

As a Headmin, I would have no interest in adding a dedicated rank with select permissions for non-Maintainer coders unless the Headcoders requested it.

If the Headcoders requested something like this, I would work with the wider teams to hash out a plan. The final result would have to ensure that non-Maintainer coders had the appropriate checks, balances and oversights in place to operate across our game servers with some form of administrative permissions.

[Edit] I didn't address a number of your arguments because I feel those are arguments best had with Maintainers and the Headcoders. Your arguments could genuinely apply to Maintainers as well, who get no formal training and have pretty much no oversight on the servers. Maintainers however HAVE been given trust over the entire codebase, with which they could do far more damage to the game integrity than via some in-game tools.
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Qustinnus
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Qustinnus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:33 pm #592552

In this case, oranges asked if he could give permanent-debugger to coders he trusted and his request was denied by Domitius, which is why I'm curious what everyone's stance on it is.

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Timberpoes
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Timberpoes » Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:59 pm #592554

Qustinnus wrote:In this case, oranges asked if he could give permanent-debugger to coders he trusted and his request was denied by Domitius, which is why I'm curious what everyone's stance on it is.


My inner Maintainer says "Sure, why not?" - My inner admin would preface with some very big caveats.

I would want a system of checks and balances in place to ensure permanent "Debuggers" were kept under the appropriate oversight and/or supervision.
I would want permanent debuggers to be separate from Game Admins - To have their own Coder say channel and no access to asay. I would like to see some system set up where they would have the ability to open Coder tickets to talk to players as technical support and not administrators.
I would not want them appearing on the adminwho list or if they did, to be clearly labelled as non-administrative ranks.
I would want them appropriately trained in the use of their own Debugger tools based on whatever permissions were given to them so they did not screw up the live servers. I would expect this training to be organised and carried out by the Codeer team.
They would be subject to all of the relevant rules of Admin Conduct while operating in their capacity as Debuggers. If necessary, a secondary set of Coder Conduct rules would be drafted which would cover all Code-related permission sets.
The rank would not auto-Debugger them on joining the server. They would need to manually readmin up every time they wanted to use Debugger permissions.
They would not be allowed to readmin up to Debugger unless they were actively debugging or triaging some issue on the live servers related to code. It would not be treated as Observer Mode Plus.

Well, you get the idea. Debuggers would not be admins, not be portrayed as admins, hold no higher standing than "coder trusted to use limited admin tools on live servers", have distinct private chat channels and would not be privy to the admin channels.

None of these are set-in-stone demands. They give an idea of the kind of restrictions and roles I would see Debuggers having. These ideas would be my basic starting point and discussions would work their way towards a conclusion. I would operate in my capacity as Headmin first and would approach the issues from the perspective of a Headmin. I would have my own views and experieces as a Maintainer that I would put into the melting pot of ideas, though.

This would promote the confidentiality that players and admins have come to expect from their interactions with the admin team while enabling a second string of tech support coders who solve practical problems on the live servers while not necessarily being Maintainers.

[Edit] Since this would be a request coming from the Maintainer/Headcoder team in general, it should be clear that I understand this will come with coding. Once the appropriate plan was laid out, I would be giving my Headmin blessing for the coders to PR the implementation of it.

I would not be involved in the coding, review or merging of such a system, as it has a potential to create a genuine conflict of interest as a Headmin and overstep the well established separation of powers between codebase and administration.
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Armhulen
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Armhulen » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:35 pm #592582

I'm not against it but if I do it'll take a bit because it means on my own time I have to refactor admin ranks the same way mentors would have to
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Naloac
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Naloac » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:41 pm #592585

Qustinnus wrote:words


ive given my opinion on this a few times during my term but id be fine with this. I want a similar thing for event runners. In my Ideal any admin can hand out debugger and event runner by pressing a button meaning that the debugger / event runner would have oversight in the case of that admin but id be fine with perma event runners and debuggers. Id also prefer if both didnt have asay and had their own method of talking since asay can have confidental stuff in it. Both debuggers and event runners would need to be held to a higher standard than regular players as they effectively are part of the overall team.
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Gogodapogostick
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Gogodapogostick » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:45 pm #592590

I would be alright allowing debugger (and event runner) to be permanent roles. I just believe that we need to make sure they tread the line carefully and thoughtfully.

However, I do believe that we should update permissions a bit to make sure that this does not allow sensitive info to fall into the wrong hands. While I'm sure we would trust those we make debugger, I want to make sure that they cannot see some of the same warnings that admins see (such as ones that include the IPs of players). Other than that, if both Oranges and the headmins can agree that someone is trustworthy enough to have debugger permanently I am okay with it.

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RaveRadbury
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby RaveRadbury » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:08 pm #592597

The biggest obstacle I see to permanent debuggers and event runners is how our permissions are divided up.

Having that said...
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Nervere/Hulk/Wubli thought that they could trust me with unsupervised debugger for a period of time. If the headmins can trust "Under 6 months and slapped together a game mode Rave" with unsupervised debugger, it's bullshit that someone Oranges has vetted can't be trusted on a similar level.


Seeing as you're a coder who has done heavy lifts and is clearly dedicated, would you be willing to work with the headmins to adjust our permissions so that any concerns of theirs could be eased? I get the impression that you would, I'd be in support of that.
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Coconutwarrior97
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:49 am #592893

I'm alright with giving some folks who have proven to be consistent/trustworthy contributors a permanent debug rank.

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Stickymayhem
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Re: Debugger Rank

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:35 am #592971

I think a lot of the hesitancy comes from the repeated examples of old codermins being pretty much unaccountable and softly abusing their permissions by tossing bad events around and smiting people. They didn't go through admin training which isn't perfect but does instill some responsibility in the person going through it.

Nowadays I think our accountability structure is strong and reliable enough that the debugger rank would work fine, but it shouldn't be too far out of the purview of the administration.
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