Malfunctioning AI Policy and Law 0 removal

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Cimika
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Malfunctioning AI Policy and Law 0 removal

Postby Cimika » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:31 am #592766

A while ago, I tried to introduce a non-lethal way to deal with malfunctioning AIs by removing their law zero through this PR : https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/52695. My idea at the time was that the AI would keep the upgrades and objectives after getting their law zero taken away, meaning that it would be kept "muzzled" by whatever lawset is present on the AI at the time. I liked the idea for potential sabotage that could be done by another traitor, seeing an easy opportunity to get a powerful AI by subverting the AI once it's been """fixed""".

This didn't go so well, it was confusing and I had to ask the then head admins team for a decision on that, as I was told it was a policy issue.

I've offered a bunch of different solutions at the time :
1 - Delete law 0, leave combat upgrades and antag status
2 - Delete law 0, leave combat upgrades, delete antag status
3 - Delete law 0, delete combat upgrades, leave antag status
4 - Delete law 0, delete combat upgrades, delete antag status
5- Do nothing

This term, I would like to push for a decision again. I think it would be good if there was a non-lethal way to fix a malfunctioning AI. Carding a malf AI is a difficult feat and should be rewarded as such.

What do you think about this policy issue ? Do you think introducing something to "fix" a malfunctioning AI would be beneficial for the game ?
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Timberpoes
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Re: Malfunctioning AI Policy and Law 0 removal

Postby Timberpoes » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:13 pm #592819

This is definitely something in the realm of general policy discussion and seems a lot less about the Headmin elections, but I'm going to work on the assumption you're seeing how each headmin would approach this problem if you brought it up during their term, so here's my thoughts!

I'm not certain silicon mains have any appetite for a change like this, so it would definitely need a public policy discussion. Usually a policy adjustment hinges on some desire for change at a baseline. So I'd probably approach the policy discussion from the following general position:

One of the key features of a malf AI is that they are impossible to subdue under ordinary circumstances. The primary solution to them is round removal. As part of any discussion that would lead to a change, I would want to see good arguments put forward for why this is flawed or how this could be improved. Is this good? Do AI mains want to see people wiping Law 0 when they lose, or would they rather fight for their lives to the death? Is part of the thrill of the "fight for your life" aspect of being a malf AI important to silicon players who roll malf? Is there an MRP/LRP split in opinion and would MRP prefer a different solution to LRP? Any other player input that could provide context for what all players legitimately want to see?

Even more importantly, do the Headmins need to make a decision at all or would this be a question of overall game balance best delegated to the Maintainer team? Would the ability to wipe law 0 genuinely be a decision to be made by the Headmins, or would it be more appropriate to let the Maintainer team decide if it's good for the game, decide the final implementation and then ask the Headmin team to figure out the policy considerations for a Law 0 wiped AI and okay the final implementation?

Also, is this something we absolutely needed to handle by policy and/or code at all?

Admins are already fully able to remove antag status from Malf AIs. I have in the past done this very thing when the crew has messaged CentCom asking for a remote reset of their carded malf AIs, usually after asking the malf AI itself. Would we genuinely need a code or policy solution for this and would this be a feature best left to the discretion of our admin team?

There's an awful lot to unpack. I can't pretend to have a definitive answer. It would have to be an answer reached by talking to all the relevant parties to decide if the Headmins need to decide if they're even competent to answer that specific policy issue (is this so gameplay- or balance-adjacent that it would be like Headmins changing global movement speed just because it's a config setting?) or if they would be best suited delegating or liasing with the Maintainer team. And is it even necessary to begin with when admins can already do it on a case-by-case basis?
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Gogodapogostick
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Re: Malfunctioning AI Policy and Law 0 removal

Postby Gogodapogostick » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:23 pm #592821

If the main issue here is the round removal of the AI, we should simply go with option number 4. I believe that this will keep the AI in the round if it is carded, and that way you can still subdue it without risk of it returning to destroy the station.

If we left it with antag status or combat upgrades, it would really be defeating the purpose of attempting to stop the malf if anyone else can just make it evil again. Therefore, if you want a compromise to keep the AI in the round, go with option 4.

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Cimika
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Re: Malfunctioning AI Policy and Law 0 removal

Postby Cimika » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:09 pm #592830

Timberpoes wrote:This is definitely something in the realm of general policy discussion and seems a lot less about the Headmin elections, but I'm going to work on the assumption you're seeing how each headmin would approach this problem if you brought it up during their term, so here's my thoughts!


For clarification, this is exactly why I'm making this thread.
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PostThis post was deleted by carshalash on Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:28 am.
Reason: haha didnt realize this was headmin thread


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