Missed Ahelps Board

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PKPenguin321
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Missed Ahelps Board

Post by PKPenguin321 » #611802

Would you support a Missed Ahelps board, or something similar to it? I proposed this concept back when I first became a headmin and got veto'd, but I still think it's a worthy idea to consider and invite you to.

If you're not familiar with the idea, read on:
Non-headmins often aren't privy to the fact that ban requests still kind of exist, just in a really shitty form: Players must PM the headmins directly to inform them of in-game grief that took place when no admins were around. For example, if somebody maxcapped the shit out of a server at 3 AM when no admins were on to stop it or look into it, either it would go unpunished because no players know about the PM route or it would go straight to the headmins who then have to 1. keep the player waiting, because they aren't on 24/7 and can't look into it as fast as a regular admin who's already online could, 2. log dive all on their own without the ability for anyone else to double check or catch things that they may have missed, 3. do all of this in a way that is really not transparent at all, potentially allowing for unchecked misuse.

Missed Ahelps is a conceptual board that's kind of like a seriously nerfed Ban Requests board. In the template to make a "ban request" there will be two new things that are mandatory to fill out to keep it from being deleted (this is what I once proposed, but ultimately the exact details would be more up to the headmins who actually implement it).
Enter the contents of your initial adminhelp during the incident:
If your adminhelp was replied to, put any further adminhelp logs here (otherwise leave this blank):

Should the requester not be able to fill at the very least the first requirement, their ban request is closed with no further discussion.

This more or less solves the major issues that the current "headmin PMs ban requests" system has in a way that is fairly transparent. Any admin could pop in and handle it like they would an ingame ticket, anyone can pop in and see the logs for themselves, and unchecked grief would get handled more swiftly. It probably wouldn't create more work either, because that work already exists in the form of headmin PMs.

Follow up questions: If you don't support the idea, why not? What parts would/wouldn't you change if you had to implement it yourself?
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Mothblocks » #611806

This is more or less in line with supportmins right now, which would appear to be a resounding success.

I agree with your comment that the current system of PMing head admins is not only obtuse but limiting in reach.

I would be fine with a system of specifically "missed ahelps", but not in the form of a public forum board. Immediate problems are not just inviting peanut posting, but that a lot of people already feel a stigma with ahelping as is, and I wouldn't want that exacerbated with a public board.

We recently created #help-tickets, which uses Discord threads to facilitate a similar process. I think it would be a good idea to encourage admins to use it, but importantly for this thread: use it to let players submit "missed ahelps" without the problems that come with a public board.

I would be curious on your thoughts specifically on my comments on public boards, since you bring up transparency for players to look up logs, as well as being the forum moderator who oversees peanut threads.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Cimika » #611807

I fully support the idea behind it and have already expressed it in the past, under the form of discord tickets. Ideally, players should be able to click a button on discord that opens a ticket that is available for all staff to see, and is properly logged as long as the bot behind it is good enough for it. The new threads system is nice but still require the admin to create it, as opposed to the player, which drastically limits its usability.

An example of such a ticket bot would be https://ticketsbot.netwhich I've used in other communities.

I would like to push for implementation of that kind of system to narrow the gap between the administration and the players.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Armhulen » #611811

Anything more than the robust #help-tickets system encourages people to hold on to past rounds, which should really be the opposite of what we're aiming for. Admin investigations get more shrouded as rounds pass, parties in the equation go MIA, people have to make forum accounts to defend themselves from what could be described as "tgstation slapp suits", dumb shit happens the more you let people cling on to things like this basically
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Timberpoes » #611866

Possible upside is better admin experience. Less pressure to be on servers 24/7. Missed ticket not end of world, if serious enough can go back and handle it.

Small player satisfaction. Ignored tickets thing of the past. Just ask admin team to handle ticket when done with ERP in CentCom 4.

But also downsides. More satisfying for good player to have ahelp handled promptly at time of ticket. More frustrating for bad player to be banned or noted without being spoken to - risks present here. More people dragged to the forums to defend themselves. Needless time waste of all parties.

Personally without a full deck of cards. Only deck of jokers. Impossible to make informed decision until I play Queen of Hearts from up sleeve.

Consider better solution to investigate why tickets are missed. Work with entire admin team to identify and treat causes where possible. Work hard to lower number of missed tickets --> lesser need for missed tickets board, positive change all around. Less drama.

Not discounting option, merely last resort if treating causes proves futile. Must then treat symptoms. Then new solutions such as this.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by kieth4 » #611957

Players feeling that admins ignore them/ don't answer ahelps is huge in the community. Any system to get more ahelps answered and dealt with is one I fully support.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by RaveRadbury » #612183

PKPenguin321 wrote: This more or less solves the major issues that the current "headmin PMs ban requests" system has in a way that is fairly transparent. Any admin could pop in and handle it like they would an ingame ticket, anyone can pop in and see the logs for themselves, and unchecked grief would get handled more swiftly. It probably wouldn't create more work either, because that work already exists in the form of headmin PMs.
This is intriguing and sells me on trialing the idea. If we have staff that are interested in taking up these investigations it could work out. I am uncertain as to the overall success of it but I definitely think it's worth trying.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by PKPenguin321 » #612211

Mothblocks wrote:This is more or less in line with supportmins right now, which would appear to be a resounding success.

I agree with your comment that the current system of PMing head admins is not only obtuse but limiting in reach.

I would be fine with a system of specifically "missed ahelps", but not in the form of a public forum board. Immediate problems are not just inviting peanut posting, but that a lot of people already feel a stigma with ahelping as is, and I wouldn't want that exacerbated with a public board.

We recently created #help-tickets, which uses Discord threads to facilitate a similar process. I think it would be a good idea to encourage admins to use it, but importantly for this thread: use it to let players submit "missed ahelps" without the problems that come with a public board.

I would be curious on your thoughts specifically on my comments on public boards, since you bring up transparency for players to look up logs, as well as being the forum moderator who oversees peanut threads.
I think you make a good point. Old ban requests being public was kind of the main thing that pushed the drama behind it, and that was before we even had peanut posts. Regarding your last point, I will clarify my OP question:

MSO has very recently implemented a board feature that will allow users to post threads that only they and select other groups could see, and as has already been suggested in that thread, it could be used to make a Missed Ahelps board that retains the upsides while keeping the public drama aspect to a minimum by only showing the Missed Ahelp threads to the admins that could handle them. To those of you who are leaning towards a "no" on the questions in the OP, would using this feature change your opinion on it at all? Why or why not?
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Timberpoes » #612235

Entire previous post still stands. Public drama not a consideration. Bigger overarching issues.

Preferred approach cut down on unanswered ahelps. Goal not to answer missed ahelps. Goal to answer ahelps promptly. Render missed ahelps irrelevant statistic not worth considering.

Hire more admins always option. Not always good option. Would like to accomplish goals with existing admin team. Make easier for future admin teams to continue to accomplish goals after term over.

Idealist view alert - leverage position to negotiate & greenlight landmark out of game features. Grand vision. Out-of-game moderation tools.

Overarching game server control panel. Pause server restart from website? Reply to ahelp from website? Access raw logs from website? Join server direct from ahelp on website?

Pipe dream. Massive undertaking. Multiple terms. Perhaps impossible or unreasonable to implement. Using meteor to crack walnut. Still taste of Timberpoes thought process.

On other hand, missed ahelp forum practical to implement. Quick fix suited for 6 month headmin term. Claim easy "win" to voters. Realpolitik solution. New MSO implementation has big dick energy over fully missed public ahelps.

Would not oppose, implementation so simple could be stopgap to allow breathing room for grander designs. Compromise.
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by oranges » #612254

Overarching game server control panel. Pause server restart from website? Reply to ahelp from website? Access raw logs from website? Join server direct from ahelp on website?

Pipe dream. Massive undertaking. Multiple terms. Perhaps impossible or unreasonable to implement. Using meteor to crack walnut. Still taste of Timberpoes thought process.

tgs4 can do a lot of this
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Re: Missed Ahelps Board

Post by Timberpoes » #612255

Hot damn. That would be powerful.

Firm in belief. Reduction in missed tickets most satisfactory outcome for players & for admins. Missed ahelps detrimental to all parties, missed ahelp forum treating symptoms. Underlying issue still present. Work hard & address underlying issue, eliminate symptoms.

Personal gut opinion that in-game administration still #1 importance. External tooling second string option. External moderation of game servers excellent supportive tool.

Make passive moderation more convenient, no need to compel admins to game servers. Can monitor remotely, investigate removely, answer remotely. Still login if necessary, but capacity to moderate by web.

Relay chat including asay? Handle unanswered tickets. Web admins added to adminwho to showcase that admin currently monitoring server.

One-man brainstorm. Potential. Wish to work with team of people who can to make ideas reality. Hope.

With forum someone still has to answer ahelps. Can kicking. Pick up that can. Put it in trash. Is now trash can, not trash cannot. Positive mental attitude.

Less burden on future headmin term to moderate & devote policy time.

Wish to leverage potential, lay foundation for better future. Good for future terms & teams to build upon.

Not dismiss forum option. Simple. Quick. Practicable. Easy win. Point to and say did good. But, still feel short-term/short-sighted solution. Could do better.
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