/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: Istoprocent / Kajin-Ze (roundname)
Admin: Gouty
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Around 7:40-8:20 GMT+2 / Bagil (MetaStation)
ROUND ID HERE: 79349

Detailed summary:

Joined the game at the start as a lizardperson assistant as I have done for the past week or so. Went to the HoP desk, was first in line and got assigned as Scientist. Some guy threw a cream-pie to my face, ignored that. As I was fumbling with my new ID and whatnot, I might have picked up a pencil and pricked a random guy next in line. No biggie. Picked up my stuff, threw the pen away and headed to Science. Went straight to the Toxins as I have been trying to learn bombmaking for quite a few days now. Was alone in the lab and set up the cannisters. Had all of them dragged in and was hooking them up, when things went downhill fast:

Cara Mull busts in and starts screaming to get out, I told him to relax as I had already set up my things and was ready to start burning my mix. She starts screwdriving me to the head, I take couple of stabs to the head while typing out things like "Stop!". The engineering borg-870 shows up and starts flashing at which point I turn to flee the lab. Note that I did not fight back at any point during that confrontation. As I tried getting back to do my assigned job the same stuff happens. At this point I went to the medbay to get healed up, picked up a syringe gun, made some sedatives with the intent to subdue the clearly antagonistic Cara Mull. The chemist was a cool guy and hooked me up with the chemdispenser and few syringes. I went back in the lab and syringed Cara. The borg then flew at me without leaving me any room for typing whats happening and needless to say I died to borg and Cara beating me to death.

My main problem was that Cara was simply just trying to kill me without any other reason than "lol ligger in toxins". I don't really care about the borg and his actions, if he felt that its straight to flashing at random dudes (he flashed me before I fleed the science area and was not doing anything that could have reasonably called as harm to human as I was not even fighting back after getting screwdrived and flashed).


From the logs apparently Cara was screaming to lynch HoP etc for doing his job (ie. assigning assistants to departments), also calling HoP a traitor without any proof (it was a syndicate round).

The problem arose, once I adminhelped. At first it was conduct as normal, but then suddenly escalated, when Gouty started accusing me of ban baiting and whatnot.

Gouty said this in OOC in the middle of ahelps: https://imgur.com/a/ZfiTN and I responded by asking why was he attacking me and accusing me of ban baiting, when I ahelped for a legit reason.

Sadly I cannot recall the conversation from memory as I was outright banned for no reason, even though I told him that I was okay with his call of the situation and explained to him that the ruling is just punishing anyone who is playing an assistant, if any assistant automatically becomes valid should they be assigned to any "dangerous" areas. I also said that I hoped that somebody else processed any potential ahelps in the future as I didn't feel that his attitute and approach were professional. I feel that the ban was abusing his position and power as we had things sorted out, but I guess I was wrong.

Edit: Apologize for edits as English is not my native language.

For anyone curious, the alleged ban is as follows:


If you want to get the logs to support your side of the story when it comes to the actual issue you adminhelped, you can use the public logs here!

Admin private message (and OOC?) logs:

[17:58:47]ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #1: Istoprocent/(Istoprocent): Only thing retarded is screwdriving people in the head without talking. - heard by 3 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[18:01:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Gouty)->Istoprocent/(Istoprocent): Ultimately you being killed was perfectly valid, the first party did not do anything that was ridiculously outside the realms of escalation and a borg saw you attack a human.
[18:01:58]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Istoprocent)->Gouty/(Gouty): Alright, if you say so man. Me not attacking anybody and getting screwdrivered in the head is legit. No problem.
[18:03:00]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): You are beginning to sound ban baity, I suggest you stop
[18:03:34]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker)->Gouty/(Carlos Danger): Sorry to have wasted your time, I guess. Will try to not sign up as Assistants from this round on.

[18:03:49]OOC: Gouty/(Carlos Danger) : Why do people assume just because I am talking to you in ahelps that the other party is not getting a dressing down too? (69,160,2)
[18:04:04]OOC: Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker) : Why admins like you keep attacking people who ahelp for a legit reason? (97,129,2)
[18:04:16]OOC: Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker) : You acquse me of ban baiting? What? (97,129,2)


[18:04:57]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): not a waste of time, play assistant if you want, don't don't expect people to welcome you into possibly the most dangerous part of the station because "I have access yo", imagine what might have happened if you had RP'd a little more
[18:07:45]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): Hi didn't I say drop it?
[18:08:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker)->Gouty/(Carlos Danger): Whats that all about man? You replied and then hit me up again? Man, I get it, you side with Cara in this situation. All good, just don't take it out on me for ahelping. I have played on the server for more than a few days and I don't think I have ever made a pointless or baity ahelp. I will stop playing assistants from this round on, because your ruling is punishing me for not powergaming and straight up picking scientist to learn bombmaking. Isnt the game about RPing?
[18:09:27]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): I didn't side with cara at all, I told you to drop it so you took it to OOC, are you chill?
[18:10:54]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker)->Gouty/(Carlos Danger): You said stuff in OOC. I am the chillest and hope that in the future somebody else will look into any matters that should arise, because I don't feel that your attitude and approach are the most approriate ones.

I'm not sure what the complaint is here, you haven't made it clear.

The situation was as follows (off the top of my head without looking at logs (I wrote this out before Okands handy post above)):

• HoP gave you access to toxins
• Scientist was next in line for the HoP
• You went to toxins and started re-configuring the pipes.
• Scientist arrives and tells you that you are doing it wrong
• Scientist then tells you to leave. When you don't they stab you thrice with a screwdriver, do minimal damage and do not follow up their attack
• After you leave they threaten you again over common and inform you of the consequences should you return
• You return and attack the human scientist in front of a borg, borg is obliged to aid the human and remove the harmful lizard (which they do)
• This is when you adminhelp. I look into the accounts of all involved, explain to the scientist how they could have handled the situation better, and how you could have too (the key is ARR PEE)
• Both of you accuse me of favouring the other
• You are very insistent that something be done about them, I told you that you were being "ban baity" (perhaps that was the wrong term to use, what I meant was that you should observe rule 6) and I suggest that you should drop it.
• You say that I clearly favoured Cara.
• I post my general remark in OOC, you reply with something that shows me you clearly didn't understand a word I said.
• Through a thinly veiled insult you accused me of not having investigated it thoroughly (despite having spent the majority of the round doing so), so I decided you needed a short time out

TL:DR: Lizard assistant gets access to toxins, does not assist but instead starts messing with pipes. Human toxins scientist does not want them there so asks them to leave, uses physical force. Lizard returns and attacks scientist, gets dunked by borg.

TBH mate this reads more like a ban request for Cara but you didn't have anywhere to put it so thought you'd challenge my decision (again)

Edit: Also worth saying that the logs posted above are from the round after the incident, this was the end of our long conversation.

Its a complaint.

[18:03:00]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): You are beginning to sound ban baity, I suggest you stop (as you would put it - thinly veiled threat)

And the unnecessary ban after I confirmed I was cool with the result.

Edit: Never said you did a bad job investigating, just said that I felt that you were unprofessional.

HoP gave you access to toxins - yes.
Scientist was next in line for the HoP - yes.
You went to toxins and started re-configuring the pipes - no. I did not touch a single pipe, just hooked up plasma and o2. 2 oxygen and 1 plasma.
Scientist arrives and tells you that you are doing it wrong - no. Cara comes in and starts screaming RETARD, OUT etc.
Scientist then tells you to leave. When you don't they stab you thrice with a screwdriver, do minimal damage and do not follow up their attack - no. I would have died right then and there if I didnt escape the toxins. Only reason I did not get stabbed more was because I fled the lab.
After you leave they threaten you again over common and inform you of the consequences should you return - sure, question is if thats good enough to make assaults valid? With this ruling anyone can start threatening over comms.
You return and attack the human scientist in front of a borg, borg is obliged to aid the human and remove the harmful lizard (which they do) - no. I returned and I got stabbed again if I recall correctly, putting me to orange. After that I went to medbay and got the gun.
This is when you adminhelp. I look into the accounts of all involved, explain to the scientist how they could have handled the situation better, and how you could have too (the key is ARR PEE) - in the adminhelp you told me that "lol RP" and Cara was in the right to stab me, because if it was "RP then she might have died if I was a traitor".
Both of you accuse me of favouring the other - cant confirm that. I got banned for ahelping, so you tell me whats up.
You are very insistent that something be done about them, I told you that you were being "ban baity" (perhaps that was the wrong term to use, what I meant was that you should observe rule 6) and I suggest that you should drop it. - you made thinly veiled threats, which lead me to believe that you are favoring Cara or are tied to Cara and you don't appreciate me ahelping the situation.
You say that I clearly favoured Cara. - yes. You threatened me with consequences, if I keep the conversation going.
I post my general remark in OOC, you reply with something that shows me you clearly didn't understand a word I said. - Was it professional of you and should you have?
Through a thinly veiled insult you accused me of not having investigated it thoroughly (despite having spent the majority of the round doing so), so I decided you needed a short time out - no, wrote it out earlier.

EDIT: There are more logs before the screwdriver one! He said that it was retarded for me to ask if "assistant lizards were valid etc". The round ended and thats why its a seperate one!

Ok, in that case, I should have just flat out pointed you to rule 6, however I thought that would have been less tactful.

Istoprocent1 wrote: Never said you did a bad job investigating, just said that I felt that you were unprofessional.

Istoprocent wrote:I [] hope that in the future somebody else will look into any matters that should arise

I may have misunderstood, the way that I read this was "I hope that someone actually looks into my adminhelp next time" not "I hope that i get a different admin next time", either way, it's a shitty thing to say after I spent all that time mediating just because you didn't get the outcome you wanted.

The issue is that you were breaking rule 6.

[18:01:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Gouty)->Istoprocent/(Istoprocent): Ultimately you being killed was perfectly valid, the first party did not do anything that was ridiculously outside the realms of escalation and a borg saw you attack a human.

This is the ruling given to you. Your response is

[18:01:58]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Istoprocent)->Gouty/(Gouty): Alright, if you say so man. Me not attacking anybody and getting screwdrivered in the head is legit. No problem.

Gouty has already stated in this thread that in hindsight ban-baity is the wrong word. What he is saying is that he's giving you a warning to not break rule 6. In my short time as an admin I have found sentences like the one above to be the most annoying and frustrating thing, the whole "Oh so does that mean in future I can just do X no problem" or "Oh so it's perfectly legit to do X then?". So I can understand Gouty's frustration. He's just had to talk to two sides in the conflict and tell them both off for bad escalation. Both sides are accusing him of being on the other persons side and when a ruling is finally made you get incredibly snarky at him. It clearly didn't end at just that looking at the logs shown, this is a short ban for breaking rule 6 even after having been warned.

RustledJimm is correct,

Also can you not edit your posts so substantially after people have replied to them

Rustledjimm wrote: Gouty has already stated in this thread that in hindsight ban-baity is the wrong word. What he is saying is that he's giving you a warning to not break rule 6. In my short time as an admin I have found sentences like the one above to be the most annoying and frustrating thing, the whole "Oh so does that mean in future I can just do X no problem" or "Oh so it's perfectly legit to do X then?". So I can understand Gouty's frustration.

Thank you for stepping in for Gouty, but I never broke rule 6 - never threatened to use the same stuff against others, just agreed with the admin in defeat as administrator say is final. If people get frustrated and live it out on the players, then maybe they are not fit to administrate?

I have not edited the main post after it was replied to and I will no longer edit anything. I believe MSO can reverse edits, should there be any problems. I am not a native speaker and I want to make sure I make my point correctly.

Do notice this:

[18:04:57]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): not a waste of time, play assistant if you want, don't don't expect people to welcome you into possibly the most dangerous part of the station because "I have access yo", imagine what might have happened if you had RP'd a little more

Nothing here for 3 minutes.

[18:07:45]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Gouty/(Carlos Danger)->Istoprocent/(Mush-Riker): Hi didn't I say drop it?

Admin hits me long after OOCs etc. I gave up once you said it was legit. You then pushed it on by steering it into a ban.

I know I've missed a couple walls of text here but I don't understand how getting stabbed in the eyes three times is minor damage unless it wasn't the eyes. I don't know how you get to attack someone and remove them from the department because they were there first and are doing it differently

Once again, I have a couple books to read in this thread so hold up for a sec

Also mocking him in OOC for adminhelping then bwoinking him for replying in OOC feels bad but maybe that's not what happened either

It doesn't look like mocking, more like venting his frustration which he probably shouldn't be doing in OOC but understandable that he was that frustrated.

From what I understand gouty mocked his ahelp in ooc, he responded and was bwoinked again by gouty

BeeSting12 wrote:It doesn't look like mocking, more like venting his frustration which he probably shouldn't be doing in OOC but understandable that he was that frustrated.

Speaking of BeeSting12 hitting me up last round for IC in OOC, however, the round was long over and the wizards/witches were revealed. I assume it was an honest mistake, not a way to start stacking those notes in vengence.

"Admin hits me long after OOCs etc. I gave up once you said it was legit. You then pushed it on by steering it into a ban."

oh

Istoprocent1 wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:It doesn't look like mocking, more like venting his frustration which he probably shouldn't be doing in OOC but understandable that he was that frustrated.

Speaking of BeeSting12 hitting me up last round for IC in OOC, however, the round was long over and the wizards/witches were revealed. I assume it was an honest mistake, not a way to start stacking those notes in vengence.

That was a legit accident. Tabbed out, tabbed back in and saw you talking about the round- noone else was and I assumed it was IC in OOC until I realized the server rebooted. I don't like Gouty enough to give notes in vengeance or whatever, besides I didn't even realize it was you until you said something about it in ahelps.

[18:03:49]OOC: Gouty/(Carlos Danger) : Why do people assume just because I am talking to you in ahelps that the other party is not getting a dressing down too? (69,160,2)
Arm, this is the line that I thought looked more like venting than mocking the guy.

If he has the proper science id i don't understand why he is tied to the rules of assistants breaking in and grieving etc anyways

he really killed himself the second time with the borg I just think the whole first interaction is dumb

BeeSting12 wrote:

Istoprocent1 wrote:

BeeSting12 wrote:It doesn't look like mocking, more like venting his frustration which he probably shouldn't be doing in OOC but understandable that he was that frustrated.

Speaking of BeeSting12 hitting me up last round for IC in OOC, however, the round was long over and the wizards/witches were revealed. I assume it was an honest mistake, not a way to start stacking those notes in vengence.

That was a legit accident. Tabbed out, tabbed back in and saw you talking about the round- noone else was and I assumed it was IC in OOC until I realized the server rebooted. I don't like Gouty enough to give notes in vengeance or whatever, besides I didn't even realize it was you until you said something about it in ahelps.

[18:03:49]OOC: Gouty/(Carlos Danger) : Why do people assume just because I am talking to you in ahelps that the other party is not getting a dressing down too? (69,160,2)
Arm, this is the line that I thought looked more like venting than mocking the guy.

Yeah I found out this ooc thing has nothing to do with the situation anyways, and venting is fine

The reasons the OOC and Ahelps are slightly out of sync is because I didn't see the OOC at first (only a few minutes later when scrolling up to look at something else).

Rest assured your comments in OOC came after I had suggested you stop.

Yeah, my comment in OOC wasn't to mock, just to point out that when an admin is talking to you, you don't see the conversation you are having with anyone else, in this instance both of you accused me of favouritism and asked why I wasn't dealing with the other. It wasn't even really about this particular instance, it's something that has happened a few times so thought it was interesting to share/vent.

Gouty wrote:The reasons the OOC and Ahelps are slightly out of sync is because I didn't see the OOC at first (only a few minutes later when scrolling up to look at something else).

Rest assured your comments in OOC came after I had suggested you stop.

Yeah, my comment in OOC wasn't to mock, just to point out that when an admin is talking to you, you don't see the conversation you are having with anyone else, in this instance both of you accused me of favouritism and asked why I wasn't dealing with the other. It wasn't even really about this particular instance, it's something that has happened a few times so thought it was interesting to share/vent.

Of course the OOC situation came after you hinted of consequences of "ban baiting". I wouldn't have said anything in the OOC, if you hadn't brought it up. I don't expect the admins to be flawless, but that was relevant to the adminhelps that were currently going on. Should an admin vent during a situation on the OOC?

EDIT: Aren't there any other channels like admin one or IRC, where you can vent?

I'm sorry, I'm confused, did you ban this guy because he didn't like the outcome of the ahelp and expressed that or did he IC in OOC or something? I can understand calling him a whiny baby over that, but actually banning him is an overly stupid response, bans are to punish people who have harmed others, not for you to flex your epeen on a guy who is mad at you, just kick him from the game instead.

Discouraging people from making ahelps is bad, even if the ahelp is stray or misdirected or just plain wrong, players dont' have all the information and context you have, so it's easier for them to see a picture of something as abusive or unfair.

Timestamps on the logs dont lie. Situation was clearly going on, even though I submitted to the ruling, then admin going wild in the OOC and pushing it forward.

Also the talks of minimal damage are not true: https://imgur.com/a/vWW7o - straight for the eyes.

Armhulen wrote:I don't know how you get to attack someone and remove them from the department because they were there first and are doing it differently

To be fair he was still dressed as an assistant

Kor wrote:

Armhulen wrote:I don't know how you get to attack someone and remove them from the department because they were there first and are doing it differently

To be fair he was still dressed as an assistant

And it's too hard to type a question ? I thought we were trying to get away from this low effort "valid|notvalid" stuff.

Obviously a question would have been the preferable course of action in this case but I don't think attacking an assistant for being in toxins is abnormal or bad enough that Clara would need to be banned for it. Hell in the middle of ejecting one (apparent) assistant another broke in with the stolen CE tools and grabbed transfer valves. Isnt uncommon for them to be up to no good.

"kill/ban/gulag the evil greytide" has been a pretty steady drumbeat from admins for years now

Just a series of poor choices (hop evidently didnt clear the access with anyone, lizard apparently didnt either, clara didnt use words, lizard decided to respond with theft and violence) that led to a stupid result.

I was the borg though so nothing I say in this thread carries any real weight, just my bad opinions

oranges wrote:

Kor wrote:

Armhulen wrote:I don't know how you get to attack someone and remove them from the department because they were there first and are doing it differently

To be fair he was still dressed as an assistant

And it's too hard to type a question ? I thought we were trying to get away from this low effort "valid|notvalid" stuff.

As we've already been told both sides got a talking to. This ban from what I can see has 0 to do with what happened ingame but is a rule 6 banning for an hour.

I've never heard of a ban for complaining about the outcome of a ahelp and I don't think it should be something worth banning over under any circumstance.

Rule 6 should be used to shutdown people complaining about the rulings but doesn't require heavy handed enforcement.

maybe it mostly because he hurt my fee fees by saying that he didn't think I had investigated/that he hopes he gets a different admin after I put in some pretty solid investigatorialness. Yeah that's probably not bannable too and I should get thicker skin. I know this isn't a ban appeal, and the ban is long over now, but i am happy just remove it if this sorts it out

Banning was too harsh but letting both of them argue with you half an hour was too indulgent. Again, I can't be the one to rule on this, but the answer is to direct people to policy/supportbus next time (and ahelp mute if they persist) rather than letting people stress you until you make a mistake. Gently remind them we have a second server and ghost roles if they really cant handle being an observer for 20 minutes.

Some people got in a stupid fight IC and handled it imperfectly and the fighting spilled over into OOC where it got handled imperfectly and we should all move on from it and do our best to avoid it in the future.

Gouty, don't let the feefees get the best of you. While players need to deal with it in regards to rule 6, they can be stuck knowing nothing while being salty about something so there's little point in taking it personally from a player in that situation who's talking to you.

Otherwise what Kor said.