/tg/Station 13

My complaint regards this:

LaharlMontgommery has rejoined as a trial admin. bgobandit has been removed for failing to comply with policy (must be in IRC while adminning).

This is entirely news to me. I was not spoken to about this at all. I think it might be due to my logging on today, but I had deadminned anyway because I rolled traitor and I really wasn't

As I have said on multiple occasions, there are a number of factors at work here:

1. My Internet is shit. My Internet has been shit basically for forever. I think right now I have the most connections on the server (either me or Reed Glover, I forgot whether I overpassed him) in a comparatively short amount of time because of the sheer extent to which my internet is shit and forces me to restart the client. I'm literally typing this on an iPhone connection because my internet connection currently does not work. When your Internet is shit, that means that whenever it decides to fuck up, you disconnect from whatever persistent connections are running, which includes IRC. And because #adminbus is a protected channel, you do not automatically rejoin it when my IRC client (Kiwi, for whatever it's worth) reloads it, if it reloads it at all, which it does not always do. A huge chunk of my supposedly not being in IRC is due to this.

1a. Apparently this is from the .seen thing, over the past two days. As many of you have noticed I've been around a lot less due to taking a calculus class over the summer. (This isn't news, I announced it at least a month ago.) So I don't really remember when I was around and when I was not, but I do know that a couple of those days I was playing the game instead of adminning (such as this morning, I deadminned due to rolling traitor). I probably answered a couple adminhelps, but on instinct -- there's been a crackdown on admins AFKing and ignoring adminhelps -- and nothing involving bans. It wouldn't have been as any kind of ~*crusade*~, at any rate; either I forgot on whatever instance it was, or I was playing the game as a player instead of an admin. You know, the thing that people continually complain admins don't do enough of.

2. Literally nothing of value happens on the #adminbus IRC channel. Seriously: nothing. 90% of the "discussion" is bots pointing out when the emergency shuttle has docked on Sibyl or Basil. Most relevant discussion happens on the forums or in asay. This has been pointed out on numerous occasions and yet the only reason that has been given as to why this is policy in the first place is "because it's tradition" and "because I said so." (It's also, to my knowledge, the only such policy. To my knowledge coders aren't required to be in #coderbus. I don't think there's any such thing for forum admins/moderators.)

3. There are a number of reasons why I do not feel comfortable in the IRC channels associated with the server. This is pretty much across the board. I'm not the only admin who feels this way, in fact I can name several.

3a. (For that matter, I'm not the only admin who isn't in IRC on a regular basis, yet I'm the only one deadminned here. I realize a lot of you have no way of knowing this, but the reason is probably because I posted a thread on the admin forums -- look at these hot leaks, very wow -- where others admitted as much.)

4. I was not spoken to, warned, or otherwise informed at all that this was on the horizon, which seems a bit shit to me.

5. Absolutely none of this has had any impact whatsover on my administrating the server, i.e. dealing with players. I don't think I've ever had any real (i.e. not salty over a ban) admin complaints leveled against me, which is more than a lot of people can say. As you know, the barrier for being deadminned is incredibly high to the point where almost no one ever is -- Oldman getting re-trialminned for spawning megafauna was basically an anomaly. There are other cases, such as silently checking antagonists while playing (I'm not going into detail here, but there have been cases), where not even a warning was given.

5. I think it goes without saying that there may be a personal grudge at work here, unless we have all forgotten the "deranged" incident.

bandit wrote:2. Literally nothing of value happens on the #adminbus IRC channel. Seriously: nothing. 90% of the "discussion" is bots pointing out when the emergency shuttle has docked on Sibyl or Basil. Most relevant discussion happens on the forums or in asay. This has been pointed out on numerous occasions and yet the only reason that has been given as to why this is policy in the first place is "because it's tradition" and "because I said so." (It's also, to my knowledge, the only such policy. To my knowledge coders aren't required to be in #coderbus. I don't think there's any such thing for forum admins/moderators.)

Not accurate. Every second it's not hopping but there's discussions, coordination, reports of problems, and heck. The bots relaying adminhelps is really handy if you're just chilling, you happen to notice 'adminhelp: doctor killing me - all admins AFK' and decide to go on and make sure it got resolved. If nothing else, it's real-time persistent chat, and being in adminbus is a handy sign that it's at least possible you're actually on, and thus available for discussion. It's not as easy to discuss things in-game unless you either deal with the massive scroll of >all text in the world, or turn it all off, only to have to turn it back on when you're done talking, and risk missing stuff.

It is actually used.

Hibbles wrote:The bots relaying adminhelps is really handy if you're just chilling, you happen to notice 'adminhelp: doctor killing me - all admins AFK' and decide to go on and make sure it got resolved.

This is relayed cross-server in admin chat and has been for two months: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/17342

If nothing else, it's real-time persistent chat, and being in adminbus is a handy sign that it's at least possible you're actually on, and thus available for discussion.

So is being in admin chat. You can AFK in admin chat, but you can AFK in IRC too.

It's not as easy to discuss things in-game unless you either deal with the massive scroll of >all text in the world, or turn it all off, only to have to turn it back on when you're done talking, and risk missing stuff.

Admin chat is in blue. I have never had an issue keeping up with it. It could just as easily be argued that it's not as easy to discuss things in IRC because it's in an entirely different window from spessmens and you have to click back and forth.

It is actually used.

Again, if someone were to leak logs of #adminbus a good 90% of it would be the (not all that useful) bots saying that the emergency shuttle has left the station on Bagil or whatever.

Look man, I can't stand HG either but when you're told something is policy and expected of you if you want to stay in your position several time sin the same thread, and every time you log in to the server you get a big red message saying "being in adminbus is mandatory" it really becomes obvious that as much as you disagree with it you're gonna have to knuckle down and grow the fuck up. Think of it like a job, if you don't adhere to company policy, after several warnings you're gonna get fired.

And if you're refusing to go into adminbus because you can't handle a few people picking on you then you're probably not thick skinned enough to be an admin anyway.

Once again I want this to be clear that I'm not defending HG, but rather telling bandit that this was bound to happen. I also very much doubt this was a grudge.

Between the response to the admin forum thread you made about this and the memo, I don't know what you expected.

Some sort of warning or due process, or not basing it over a period of two days with maybe one or two adminPMs answered (I don't have the ability to pull logs, but they exist) or even just applying this to all the admins who have missed a few days in IRC -- or make a habit of not being there at all -- would be a good start. If I intended anything malicious wouldn't you think that would happen over a period of more than two days?

As several people have pointed out this is an almost unprecedentedly fast (and, based on talking with other admins/headmins, unilateral) deadminning in... basically as long as I can think of on the server? And this includes actual incidents with repercussions like abusing powers in-game, leaking shit, making bad bans, things like that. As it stands this seems very much like looking for any excuse to deadmin me regardless of merit.

Rules have to be enforced. In my opinion there should be some leniency or appeal process but that being said this is a headmin decision. The head admins should enforce all the codes of conduct, not just this snippet. I've seen admins violate about every rule of the code of conduct and get off scott free IE making yourself a invincible ash drake or var editing things that crash the server, bans over arguments on Admin PMs, queuing event after event, unprofessional conduct ect ect.

Regardless this a headmin decision, so essentially I would either appeal this when there are new headmins or start over as a trial admin (assuming there are no objections).

Regarding warnings or due process if there should be a appeal process or something why not try to create one?

There is tons of "admin abuse" that has been worse, and a deadmin seems too much IMHO. I'm not saying HG was in the wrong here but he was a bit heavy handed.

Honestly, atleast during the times I am on I have been BGO adminning more frequently than I see HG adminning. So that seems kinda shitty to deadmin someone over pseudo-inactivity.

Besides, the other headmins should probably weigh in on this and HG should, no offence, probably leave this matter alone further on due to bad blood/personal issues between him and BGO. Similar to how an admin can be prevented from directly doing anything to a specific player and instead has to call another admin.

Since unless we forget the whole deranged incident, I think that enough proof that a seperate headmin should handle this.

The other headmins already weighed in on it.

bandit wrote:My Internet is shit. My Internet has been shit basically for forever. I think right now I have the most connections on the server (either me or Reed Glover, I forgot whether I overpassed him) in a comparatively short amount of time because of the sheer extent to which my internet is shit and forces me to restart the client. I'm literally typing this on an iPhone connection because my internet connection currently does not work. When your Internet is shit, that means that whenever it decides to fuck up, you disconnect from whatever persistent connections are running, which includes IRC. And because #adminbus is a protected channel, you do not automatically rejoin it when my IRC client (Kiwi, for whatever it's worth) reloads it, if it reloads it at all, which it does not always do. A huge chunk of my supposedly not being in IRC is due to this.

Get a better IRC client. Get Hexchat/silverex/mirc/anything, hell even chatzilla. You're using a browser IRC client, no wonder its shit.
Rizon's ping timeout is 4 minutes. 240 seconds for connection hiccups to fix themselves. That's more generous than byond gives you i'm sure.
There is nothing that prevents you from nickserv identify/autojoining adminbus, its your shitty browser client that doesn't support it.

bandit wrote:Literally nothing of value happens on the #adminbus IRC channel. Seriously: nothing. 90% of the "discussion" is bots pointing out when the emergency shuttle has docked on Sibyl or Basil. Most relevant discussion happens on the forums or in asay. This has been pointed out on numerous occasions and yet the only reason that has been given as to why this is policy in the first place is "because it's tradition" and "because I said so." (It's also, to my knowledge, the only such policy. To my knowledge coders aren't required to be in #coderbus. I don't think there's any such thing for forum admins/moderators.)

Straight up false, and if you feel this way, maybe you should reconsider even wanting to admin.

bandit wrote:There are a number of reasons why I do not feel comfortable in the IRC channels associated with the server. This is pretty much across the board. I'm not the only admin who feels this way, in fact I can name several.

If you feel this way, maybe you should reconsider even wanting to admin.

bandit wrote:I was not spoken to, warned, or otherwise informed at all that this was on the horizon, which seems a bit shit to me.

Really? Like the other times you were told to get in adminbus?
How about all the times you joined just to spout "IM ONLY HERE BECAUSE I'M REQUIRED TO BE PLEASE DON'T TALK TO ME" literally every fucking time you joined for a couple days there.
Really didn't see this coming?

bandit wrote:Absolutely none of this has had any impact whatsover on my administrating the server, i.e. dealing with players.

Clearly it has, since you can't anymore :^)

bandit wrote:I think it goes without saying that there may be a personal grudge at work here, unless we have all forgotten the "deranged" incident.

The longer you drag this one, the more I start to think you might be deranged. I wouldn't be surprised if others started to see you this way too.

Nothing of value happens on the IRC

Straight up false, and if you feel this way, maybe you should reconsider even wanting to admin.

This seems a little excessive. I've never actually encountered a valuable discussion in adminbus, I just tab in to see if the round has ended on the other server yet.

PAS got got too, so you can't even really complain about this being a grudge against you anymore.

But god damn PAS, all you had to do was idle in adminbus ;__;

This whole thing is fucking retarded. Deadmin me too, I never go on IRC

Docprofsmith wrote:PAS got got too, so you can't even really complain about this being a grudge against you anymore.

But god damn PAS, all you had to do was idle in adminbus ;__;

But I did... I have been. Ever since I was called up before I've logged onto IRC the moment I've hit connect in byond?

I genuinely don't know when I haven't done this? And if I have it would have most certainly been a mistake rather than a protest as I made clear in the previous IRC chat we had on the admin forums?

Also any kind of heads up might have been nice. I didn't even recieve a message saying I was removed. I only just noticed upon looking at the "AMA" thread I started where someone said "kinda pointless now"...

I'm not sure why I've been made into an enemy here. I haven't actively tried to annoy anyone?

peoplearestrange wrote:

Docprofsmith wrote:PAS got got too, so you can't even really complain about this being a grudge against you anymore.

But god damn PAS, all you had to do was idle in adminbus ;__;

But I did... I have been. Ever since I was called up before I've logged onto IRC the moment I've hit connect in byond?

I genuinely don't know when I haven't done this? And if I have it would have most certainly been a mistake rather than a protest as I made clear in the previous IRC chat we had on the admin forums?

Also any kind of heads up might have been nice. I didn't even recieve a message saying I was removed. I only just noticed upon looking at the "AMA" thread I started where someone said "kinda pointless now"...

I'm not sure why I've been made into an enemy here. I haven't actively tried to annoy anyone?

Well, I'm inclined to believe PAS. Readmin them immediately!

Aparently the adminbot is broken? Showing me as not having connected for 41 days. I know this is definatly not true as I've both talked to Kor and HG at least within that time frame. If anyone has IRC logs of Thursday it should show me in adminbus then as well.

Can i reserve tickets for AdminBus 2016 : The Civil War?

IrishWristWatch0> .seen peoplearestrange
<[^_^]> I don't know who peoplearestrange is.

for clarity
<IrishWristWatch0> .seen PeopleAreStrange
<[^_^]> I don't know who PeopleAreStrange is.

It goes back pretty far too.
<ausleep> .seen ikarrus
<[^_^]> ikarrus was last seen here 66 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes ago.

we determined it only shows people who are still on the access list

Wait so PAS was deadminned based on evidence that the headmins had to have known was false based on conversations they had with PAS in adminbus?

This is kind of ridiculous. I understand bgo not following policy, but atleast a message or talk beforehand would have gone a long way. Same with PAS, especially since they very well have been around. I get the importance of being in IRC sometimes, but most of the time there aren't many important things going on in there. The few times there are, it usually isn't concerning most of the regular admins, but only a specific person.

Especially with these two giving their time to volunteer and help out, it really just seems like a dirk to just get rid of them without so much as a heads up.

This isn't the first thread to be had about bgo not being in adminbus. We've had others where HG directly said "Be in adminbus no excuses" sort of deal. I take it those where the warnings he gave.

Wyzack wrote:Wait so PAS was deadminned based on evidence that the headmins had to have known was false based on conversations they had with PAS in adminbus?

No I think they're saying that it doesnt say any infomation because im NOW not on the admin list? Not sure. Still I'm pretty sure I have logs from my end of mIRC of talking in adminbus, or at least connecting when I've been on the game servers. So its probably something Im missing or dont realise I've done? Not sure.

Okand37 wrote:This is kind of ridiculous. I understand bgo not following policy, but atleast a message or talk beforehand would have gone a long way. Same with PAS, especially since they very well have been around. I get the importance of being in IRC sometimes, but most of the time there aren't many important things going on in there. The few times there are, it usually isn't concerning most of the regular admins, but only a specific person.

Especially with these two giving their time to volunteer and help out, it really just seems like a dirk to just get rid of them without so much as a heads up.

Well thats what I would think, but I was told by a few people that HG doesn't give warnings. As Ive said though, Im not particularly clear on whats going on. I haven't gotten any info from HG in message for and I haven't managed to get hold of them on IRC. So I guess Ill just wait and see?

Is it worth starting a separate thread as I guess our situations are somewhat different, even if the end result is the same?

from a quick look at my irc logs, pas was in irc about two and a half days ago, and their last ingame connection was on the 1st. Or rather, last seen was [11:01:Jul:Fri:01] |<-- PeopleAreStrange has left irc.rizon.net ()

Okand37 wrote:This is kind of ridiculous. I understand bgo not following policy, but atleast a message or talk beforehand would have gone a long way. Same with PAS

[Emphasis mine]

This. This a thousand times. I'm the last person to chide anyone for being unprofessional, but this is ridiculous.

imblyings wrote:from a quick look at my irc logs, pas was in irc about two and a half days ago, and their last ingame connection was on the 1st. Or rather, last seen was [11:01:Jul:Fri:01] |<-- PeopleAreStrange has left irc.rizon.net ()

Just incase anyone is a retard, that was two and half days ago.

FREE PAS

imblyings wrote:from a quick look at my irc logs, pas was in irc about two and a half days ago, and their last ingame connection was on the 1st. Or rather, last seen was [11:01:Jul:Fri:01] |<-- PeopleAreStrange has left irc.rizon.net ()

Facebot reported PAS being gone for 2 days 8 hours on Saturday, and they have admin activity on Friday.

Wyzack wrote:This whole thing is fucking retarded. Deadmin me too, I never go on IRC

I looked through a few days of your connections since your last appearance but you seemed to instantly deadmin every round (which is another issue really).

Maybe don't rely on some autistic and evidently fallible numbercruncher to make your BEEP BOOP COMPUTER SAYS NO decisions and actually talk to people for a change, and you won't be left wondering why there's an outcry every time you do anything.

Hornygranny wrote:

imblyings wrote:from a quick look at my irc logs, pas was in irc about two and a half days ago, and their last ingame connection was on the 1st. Or rather, last seen was [11:01:Jul:Fri:01] |<-- PeopleAreStrange has left irc.rizon.net ()

Facebot reported PAS being gone for 2 days 8 hours on Saturday, and they have admin activity on Friday.[/quote]
I was on IRC on Friday AM whilst I played. Here's the disconnection log of IRC
http://puu.sh/pP4Z8/58a3a23c2f.png

(GMT Times)
Session Start: Sun Jun 26 18:08:22 2016
Session Ident: #adminbus
Session Close: Fri Jul 01 04:01:30 2016

I have my personal IRC logs.
Friday 4am GMT I was in the game still and also still in IRC as I had said.
If you're having to pick apart minor infractions of timings, then surely that shows that Im hardly doing this on purpose or out of some kind of protest?

>trusting the facebook bot

Why are you treating this as if it's a professional job if you continually remark with regard to bans that being an admin is not a job and they shouldn't have to upload a certain level of conduct.

I honestly don't understand this. So admins can do whatever they want with regards to their conduct towards the community but if they don't follow set admin conduct in private which affects literally nothing they get deadmined?

Someone try to fill in the blanks here with the route of logic because I'm missing something.

It's almost like. This is a video game. And not real life.

IrishWristWatch0 wrote:It's almost like. This is a video game. And not real life.

I fail to see the relevance of this statement.

If this is a video game why is something as trivial as adminbus loitering being used as a metric for admin standards?

Dunno just seems incredibly hypocritical to wash hands of any need for admins to behave to a certain standard when interacting with the community to only then enforce something like this in private where it literally doesn't matter.

requiring people to be in the admin irc channel when they are adminning is not a really the same as treating adminning as a "professional job"

oranges wrote:requiring people to be in the admin irc channel when they are adminning is not a really the same as treating adminning as a "professional job"

You might be missing the point entirely here.

No one is saying admining should be a professional job, I just think it's extremely odd that you want to stick to a very tight and rigid procedure list for admin activities which doesn't really affect the server or the community at all but you don't give a shit about admins memeing and just generally not taking anything seriously when interacting with the community which does actually matter.

They have a single requirement, which is to be in irc, it is not onerous or difficult to achieve.

This was a long time coming apparently

peoplearestrange wrote:snip

MSO confirmed this matches his own logs, so Facebot and I were wrong. I apologize, and it looks like someone else beat me to adding your access.

oranges wrote:They have a single requirement, which is to be in irc, it is not onerous or difficult to achieve.

The only requirements should be conduct and judgement.

BGO and PAS are some of the better admins in my opinion, in both respects. Silently getting rid of "good" admins because they didn't loiter in IRC enough but doing absolutely nothing to curb or enforce levels of conduct seems extremely counter productive and petty. Just seems silly to me, obviously I have no say in it but feel like that kind needs to be discussed.

In my opinion at least.

You don't hire high functioning autistic people just because they're good at math if they can't do the rest of the job which is working well with their peers because they're socially retarded and think everyone is out to get them and it makes them 'uncomfortable'

It's a volunteer job, why do we hold admin to this low standard like it's not a job? Is there something I'm missing or is the server not better off without people who want the position for power and button-pressing?

I'm readding the quote to my signature. I urge everyone here to read it, re-read it, and evaluate the kind of person bandit is

paprika wrote:You don't hire high functioning autistic people just because they're good at math if they can't do the rest of the job which is working well with their peers because they're socially retarded and think everyone is out to get them and it makes them 'uncomfortable'

It's a volunteer job, why do we hold admin to this low standard like it's not a job? Is there something I'm missing or is the server not better off without people who want the position for power and button-pressing?

I'm readding the quote to my signature. I urge everyone here to read it, re-read it, and evaluate the kind of person bandit is

I might be misunderstanding your post but what part of loitering in an IRC channel that sees little to no activity for 99% of the day other than "Emergency shuttle called on X" indicates an ability to work with their peers.

>Wow IRC private messages aren't a thing at all and totally not infintely more convenient than asay, forum messages, or byond pager XD

Seriously? There's a reason the adminbus has used it for fucking years and made it policy to be in there.

If you don't like it, try to change it or ask the headmins for policy change instead of straight up ignoring the policy, then crying about it later when you get deadminned. I can't believe I even have to be explaining this right now.

Bgobandit arguing about whether they should be in the channel or not is moot, because they argued that they didn't want to do that weeks before and continued to join. This was a case of forgetting and having client issues, while still punishable is not the same as bad faith and refusing to join IRC. This was discussed at extreme length in supportbus already, this thread doesn't do it justice.

Said my stance on the IRC policy already and its awfulness, so I'll use two nice points from above-

Tornadium wrote: You might be missing the point entirely here.

No one is saying admining should be a professional job, I just think it's extremely odd that you want to stick to a very tight and rigid procedure list for admin activities which doesn't really affect the server or the community at all but you don't give a shit about admins memeing and just generally not taking anything seriously when interacting with the community which does actually matter.

firecage wrote:Honestly, atleast during the times I am on I have been BGO adminning more frequently than I see HG adminning. So that seems kinda shitty to deadmin someone over pseudo-inactivity.

Now, moving onto

Hornygranny wrote: but you seemed to instantly deadmin every round (which is another issue really).

Is it, HG, is it REALLY?

I dunno, i think HG has a point about me. Recently whenever i play i deadmin so that i can play sec roles. Real life has kind of gotten in the way, but overall i don't really feel like i am needed anymore. We have more and better admins than me who can actually put in the time. I have been considering stepping down from admin for some time now, but i am not really sure. Regardless that is not really the point of this thread

I'm gonna give my opinion one more time here because I think it will help admins in general going forward:

If you can't abide by the rules or be around to do your job, just resign. You can come back later when things improve. It's better than getting forcefully deadminned for not following the rules or being silent about how you don't have the time to administrate anymore and then having a harder time getting admin again later with threads like this.

The simple fact is, whether or not bandit is a good admin, if they had simply stopped administrating until they got an internet connection capable of abiding by the IRC policy or at least raised concern over the effectiveness of the policy (if the IRC presence isn't REALLY needed as bandit claims) they would not have been deadminned.

It's a volunteer job for a 2d spaceman game, people. Even if your trial process was hard I guarantee you it would be much easier to get admin a second time if you're willing to explain how the situations that lead to your resigning in the first place have changed (more time to admin, better internet for IRC, better IRC client, whatever)
=

They fully followed the IRC policy up until a point where they forgot a day, not because they wanted to go against the establishment.

This thread suggests otherwise, in fact it suggests bad internet isn't the only reason bandit didn't join IRC

That's just bandit mixing in bad arguments along with what actually happened

Paprika you have some fudge on your nose. actually your entire head.