/tg/Station 13

Byond account and character name: Repukan - Donatello Versus

Admin: AlphaaBeta

Time incident occured: earlier today, 10/28/2016

Detailed summary: I started the shift with two other miners. We start mining and after realizing we have no scientists, I ask the HoP access to science and permission to set up a research base in mining. They oblige and I enter science and start deconstructing the machines. As I am doing this, the mime knocks on the window to drop off some stuff and an implanter. I ignore them, since they're not affecting me or the miners yet, and brush him off. I set up everything in a crate, and move towards cargo to board the shuttle as I tell another miner to get the ORM too. As I move towards the mining shuttle, I see the mime emmagging the cargo shuttle. Not my monkey, not my circus, I think to myself, and move inside the mining shuttle. The mime runs after me and boards the shuttle, and at this point, I decide to put him down due to fear of him having me or another miner as a target.

Another miner in the shuttle berates me for attacking him, but relents as we find the emag and other shit in his pack. Shit ensues as the QM is mad we get the mime, and claims we're seceding. We claim we're not, and I focus on maxing research levels while my coworkers mine the minerals. We do good progress, and while I am watching the new items in research, I get stabbed a shit ton of times by a ninja who then proceeds to kill the other miner.

At this point, at least I, start looking into how the ninja beelined straight for mining just to kill me and the other miner. Mime's corpse soul decayed, and I ask the admins how valid it is to use previous life knowledge to kill someone. At this point, Alpha admits to manually spawning in the ninja, and setting him with an objective to kill me.

I and other players point out that killing the mime was something needed to ensure our safety in a way since no one goes to mining unless they need to kill a miner. Salt ensues, and Alpha says that since he can't ban me for doing something he dislikes, he will deal with it ic'ly.

Remember how I mentioned that people going into mining usually go to kill a miner?

I just want to know, since when is it okay to do this? I just want greater clarification since now it seems the rest of the station is Hollywood sugar glass for antags to break through with no opposition.

http://pastebin.com/v7EAwzVz Adam logs
http://pastebin.com/BVwjBnqV Repukan logs

NikNakFlak wrote:http://pastebin.com/v7EAwzVz Adam logs
http://pastebin.com/BVwjBnqV Repukan logs

Jesus christ what the fuck

NikNakFlak wrote:http://pastebin.com/v7EAwzVz Adam logs
http://pastebin.com/BVwjBnqV Repukan logs

There is a point at which someone should be told to go read rule 10.

Why do so many people think completely ignoring your game role makes you a better roleplayer.

Kor wrote:Why do so many people think completely ignoring your game role makes you a better roleplayer.

Can you explain in relation to this situation?

The corporate sponsored space terrorist broke into a secure research facility using illegal hacking tech, sabotaged a bunch of equipment, then chased/cornered one of the (armed) workers and got killed for it, but said worker is being a "shitty validhunter" for defending himself/his workplace.

All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

[14:29:58]ADMIN: PM: Adam El-Tablawy/(Bleaux Zeborgs)->AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett): nope. i had a cardboard cutout, that was it. i didn't do anything else traitorous, i did emag the cargo machines though, but nobody saw. i also gave donatello illegal gear but

bolding mine, but this is kinda...
"I didnt' do anything traitorous apart from this thing and that thing and the other thing but I'm sure nobody saw me"

[14:31:11]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Adam El-Tablawy/(Bleaux Zeborgs): Well, you were confirmed traitor. Sadly, I cannot ban for that. As I've said, I got yelled for it once

there's no "sadly" about being unable to ban someone who didn't break any rules, though.

[14:33:39]ADMIN: PM: Adam El-Tablawy/(Bleaux Zeborgs)->AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett): i'd pay a fuckton just to have you kill donatello somehow
[14:33:53]ADMIN: PM: AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett)->Adam El-Tablawy/(Bleaux Zeborgs): Okay, better idea
[14:34:15]ADMIN: PM: Adam El-Tablawy/(Bleaux Zeborgs)->AlphaaBeta/(Christopher Beckett): oh wait what if you made an announcement about how donatello is a traitor to the station and all and hope he gets murdered

and tbh at this point, were I in this position I'd have told Adam to suck it up and muted him from ahelps if he kept it up, you can't just cave in to "i ded pls avenge me" shit like that. Sometimes you gotta be firm with the deadchat whiners, especially over shit like "my round is ruined, I want their round ruined too".

Atlanta-Ned wrote:All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

This.
There are many other choices to make IC instead of just having someone be given arguably one of the most OP jobs (ninja) in the game.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

What in this series of events needs to be "handled" though?

Kor wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

What in this series of events needs to be "handled" though?

not killing the mime earlier

Kor wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:All discussions of validhunting aside, there are better IC ways to handle something like this, aside from a ninja with an assassinate objective.

What in this series of events needs to be "handled" though?

Not saying this specific set of circumstances, but more in general.

What if the admin bwoinked repu to have him hear his side of the story? And if it was deemed punishable, punish him. Although that seems a bit complicated.

>Do something traitorious that something a traitor could only do (Emagging)
>Do something else that's highly hints that he's either going to kill the miner or his friends
>Miner takes matters into his own hands first and dunks the traitor before he could kill the miner.

Sounds like proper escalation here.

anyone can emag.

Wha happened to: "Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists" and "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag."

Those are both still in effect I believe. Act like an antag get treated like one definitely still applies

tedward1337 wrote:Those are both still in effect I believe. Act like an antag get treated like one definitely still applies

Then why does cucking a traitor require any sort of intervention, IC or OOC?

Alright.
At the time the incident was happening, I was busy dealing with matters on another server. I know this is not an excuse for not investigating further into the matter of that ahelp, but I'm just putting it here. I was a bit distracted and busy, have relied solely on ahelps from Adam (haven't observed the situation as ghost) and have found the situation pretty shitty. From what I understood at the time, you've killed a traitor that has given some of their stuff to R&D (or you, I've heard both versions?), was 'confirmed', went to the shuttle with cardboard cutouts and got killed by your wordlessly.

I've found that as a shitty behaviour and, after some thought, decided to send a ninja to compensate. Yes, it was probably a big overkill. I've told the ninja not to murder everyone in the meantime and focused with dealing with some matters on sybil, I think.

Later you said that you've killed him because 'a mime has no purpose of staying on mining, other than to murder a miner'.
Now, reading the logs, it's struck me, weren't you setting up R&D there? Because that would explain why the mime went to the shuttle after apparently giving you illegal gear for research.

It still stands, sending a ninja was too much as a means of dispensing justice from what I've heard on ahelps. But, if you setting up R&D on mining and preventing the station to get any resources without asking you two miners first was true, then killing people like that is really shitty in my book.

alphaBeta wrote:Alright.
At the time the incident was happening, I was busy dealing with matters on another server. I know this is not an excuse for not investigating further into the matter of that ahelp, but I'm just putting it here. I was a bit distracted and busy, have relied solely on ahelps from Adam (haven't observed the situation as ghost) and have found the situation pretty shitty. From what I understood at the time, you've killed a traitor that has given some of their stuff to R&D (or you, I've heard both versions?), was 'confirmed', went to the shuttle with cardboard cutouts and got killed by your wordlessly.

I've found that as a shitty behaviour and, after some thought, decided to send a ninja to compensate. Yes, it was probably a big overkill. I've told the ninja not to murder everyone in the meantime and focused with dealing with some matters on sybil, I think.

Later you said that you've killed him because 'a mime has no purpose of staying on mining, other than to murder a miner'.
Now, reading the logs, it's struck me, weren't you setting up R&D there? Because that would explain why the mime went to the shuttle after apparently giving you illegal gear for research.

It still stands, sending a ninja was too much as a means of dispensing justice from what I've heard on ahelps. But, if you setting up R&D on mining and preventing the station to get any resources without asking you two miners first was true, then killing people like that is really shitty in my book.

1. You failed to investigate into the situation, or ask the other admin online (MimicFaux) to give you a summary of what happened. Even with all admin tools you guys get, you decided to just go "heh fuck this guy." Willful and hostile negligence.

2. RnD was set up in mining and it was being maxed before being sent to the rest of the station to save time. I did cooperate with the station, as seen by me making a technology disk delivery to cargo. You are pulling this assumption out of your ass.

3. You weren't doing it because of justice or anything of the sort. Post death I remember you clearly mentioning this :https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=7514 - And that since you could not ban me for protecting my workplace and co-workers (which is what I was doing.) You would instead circumvent and find a way to "deal with me." ICly.

The end objective picture shows the mime's objectives. Funnily enough, it was as we thought, he had a miner as an objective. You didn't take this into account, either by negligence or you just didn't care and decided to grudge me.

In fact, I believe the logs should be posted to show the mention.

if you're a traitor and do a traitor thing, you are valid no ifs ands or buts
mime got dunked
I've been dunked for way less as we all have

admin made garbage decision, don't hide behind you're busy, it's literally your job, which you did incorrectly
and i like roleplaying, but we have traitors are valad salad for a reason, so banbaiting and killbaiting falls to a small minimum

mime could've easily prevented his death, using a multitude of different ways. miner didn't need to kill him, but did

alphaBeta wrote:things

Particulars of the situation and whether ninja was too much or not, my biggest concern right now is you explicitly stating you knew what he did wasn't against the rules, that you'd been told previously not to ban people for it, and that you were going to find a way around that to punish him anyway.

If we told a player not to kill other players over X, and then they went and instead walled them into a 1x1 room with no radio for the rest of the round, we probably wouldn't find that amusing.

I don't want to be a dick and be super harsh about this, but how can I trust you're going to enforce the server rules at this point?

Kor wrote:
(...) my biggest concern right now is you explicitly stating you knew what he did wasn't against the rules, that you'd been told previously not to ban people for it, and that you were going to find a way around that to punish him anyway.

D&B wrote:3. You weren't doing it because of justice or anything of the sort. Post death I remember you clearly mentioning this :https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=7514 - And that since you could not ban me for protecting my workplace and co-workers (which is what I was doing.) You would instead circumvent and find a way to "deal with me." ICly.

D&B wrote:Except assuming had no part in this, he made him a ninja because he couldn't ban me anymore because of it, so he decided to fuck my round (and whoever was in the close vicinity) as well.

At that time I was thinking along the lines of 'If you can punish players for what's allowed when being an antag (murderboning), why can't you punish them for validhunting, when not an antag?'. So I picked that to do what I thought was right, easing on dead man's salt, as it's stated. I wanted to somehow compensate for his death. My other ideas were to either spawn him as a revenant or morph, but if I were to do it, I'd probably have to deal with metagrudging, since he'd have no reason to kill a miner outside of grudge (which is still allowed as an antag).

Spawning a ninja to punish a player because I cannot ban them for that behaviour...it may sound like I'm grasping at straws here, but It really looks to me like when an admin is dealing with murderboner on lowpop. Or freeing a prisoner because the reason they got arrested is bullshit. And there are many more examples like that.

Yes, Repukan has a playstyle I dislike, no offence. I'm not trying to metagrudge them for shit play, I'm trying to 'encourage' (if you could say it so) them to a better playstyle. And at that point I thought that getting killed for that was fair.

420goslingboy69 wrote:admin made garbage decision, don't hide behind you're busy, it's literally your job, which you did incorrectly

I think I've stated it quite clearly it's not an excuse.

tedward1337 wrote:Act like an antag get treated like one definitely still applies

This is a dumb rule since literally anyone can have antag gear, including captain and sec, and get away with it. The only reason they won't get killed is because everyone knows security can't be antag, or they trust that person for one reason or another.

D&B wrote:2. RnD was set up in mining and it was being maxed before being sent to the rest of the station to save time. I did cooperate with the station, as seen by me making a technology disk delivery to cargo. You are pulling this assumption out of your ass.

I'm not doing any assumptions, I was just saying that since apparently you had R&D on mining, shouldn't you expect people come and try to use it, too?

Kor wrote: I don't want to be a dick and be super harsh about this, but how can I trust you're going to enforce the server rules at this point?

There is nothing I can say other than some bullshitting that can ensure you about that.
I think I've said everything that needs to be said, mimic can speak about #1 D&B has made if he wants to. So I'm ready to take a full responsability for my actions. Whatever happens now is up to headmins. And all that jazz.

P.S. I'm sorry for all the delays with my responses but most of this discussing is happening when I'm asleep, and I'm too busy to post a response during a day. Long weekend and stuff.

How is spawning someone with a three hit kill weapon encouraging to change gamestyle if I'm fucking dead.

No actually how is lowpop murderbone comparable to someone killing a mime with an emag trying to go into their workplace without knowing their full intentions?

Because they both are actions that cannot get you banned, because it's within the rules. Yet admins will deal with it. Sometimes.

As I've said, sending a ninja wasn't a good idea overall, but the idea was to discourage you from free valids, since that could get you killed IC. I mean, there were many other ways you could've handled the mime, apart from throwing them into lava after taking their stuff, without knowing their full intentions. That's all.

How is "free valids" making me get killed.

I've seen and I myself have gotten killed before for less than that. Thing is, you learn to suck it up and realize it's a game. The last thing you need is an administrator over moderating play styles they don't like. You are volunteering to enforce the rules, not to circumvent them.

What's next, sec getting bwoinked for cremating lings that haven't done anything yet after they revive next to them?

You are repeating everything I've alredy stated in much more aggresive way.

I'm fucking pissed bro

I understand you're being furious for what have I done, but I assure you that I've meant no malice intent by my actions. I can imagine the person that got killed was feeling the same. What I was trying to do (horribly) is to try and make sure those situations don't happen on regular basis, as that certainly doesn't improve the quality of the game we are playing.

alphaBeta wrote:I understand you're being furious for what have I done, but I assure you that I've meant no malice intent by my actions. I can imagine the person that got killed was feeling the same. What I was trying to do (horribly) is to try and make sure those situations don't happen on regular basis, as that certainly doesn't improve the quality of the game we are playing.

I don't understand how an administrator explicitly grudging players, failing to investigate and circumventing rules and non-rules improves the game. You can't purge valid-hunting from the game, it will always be the opposite reaction to the hostile force (traitors, wizards, cultists) as the crew tries to return to normalcy, a point zero, to be able to do their jobs.

Dont spawn anyone back in as a ninja to kill someone who 'wronged them'

Mute players who wont stop harassing you about it from ahelp.

If you felt the person who 'wronged them' was toeing a line, talk to them and ask them to turn down the Asshole Dial

3 simple steps.

Honestly at this point in time it still seems to me that you're just using the position more to push a play style that you prefer than actually enforcing the rules.

I logged in today to check my admin remarks because I remember one occasion in which I was playing Assistant you bwoinked me for killing a traitor HoP that had attempted to murder another assistant and failed to actually kill them. You kept dodging me in ahelps until finally you relented and revealed that they were, in fact, a traitor, and that their death was valid, but you were going to still intervene. You revived them too, if I recall correctly.

I'm going to quote the admin conduct page "... you're here to keep the game fun and fair for the players." How is it fair that you are abusing your position to push a play style others might not enjoy? How is it fun to play a game in which an administrator is trying to dodge the rules to intervene and push their own ideals into the game?

This is not serving the players, and not serving the rules that they have to abide. You're just serving yourself at this point. "PLAY THE WAY I LIKE, OR ELSE....."

I believe that I Okand was given TLB's old title to keep pushing basil in the more rp oriented direction and play style, so I am curious what they think about it

Can you post the contents of the note you were given, D&B? It may be relevant to the thread. If this post gets deleted I've sent a mirror to your PM box.

D&B wrote: I logged in today to check my admin remarks because I remember one occasion in which I was playing Assistant you bwoinked me for killing a traitor HoP that had attempted to murder another assistant and failed to actually kill them. You kept dodging me in ahelps until finally you relented and revealed that they were, in fact, a traitor, and that their death was valid, but you were going to still intervene. You revived them too, if I recall correctly.

HOP has assaulted an assistant, served their sentence for that and got relased. Meanwhile you got just said that 'HOP is a traitor' by assaulted assistant, and proceeded to kill HOP the moment he got freed from the brig. And no, I have not revived anyone if I remember correctly.


And I have some hard time bringing myself any memories of anyone playing the way you do. No one is killing somebody just because 'they can' or 'they looked at me the wrong way'. Even security will, from time to time, ignore some 'confirmed antag' just because they haven't done any grief yet. They also have means to restrain people safely, not outright kill them. They have means to make it better, either by borging, some kind of interrogation or by putting them in perma, giving a small chance of escape.

I know the admin conduct, I know I probably shouldn't have dealt with your situation to begin with.

At the moment - you're just playing a victim card how an admin is supposed to act ("... you're here to keep the game fun and fair for the players.") and is not making it fun for you. Maybe you should start making it better for other people, not just yourself. I haven't asked but I believe that several people on basil would prefer a higher rp standard. And since I'm supposed to make the game an enjoyable experience not just for you, but for other people, you have little to say in that matter when you get smacked for your plastyle. Just how antags can get fucked up for being shit, don't think you can't. Doing something that's 'legal' in terms of rules can still violate rule one.

At the moment I feel I know that you and other players from sybil, who haven't even seen me admin there and don't play on basil, want to shout all the way up to get me deadminned about how I handle basil. Yeah. Good job there. Masterfully planned.

I know I make mistakes but at this point, after explaining everything and being ignored, I don't give a damn what some people say when they have no right to. I've alredy stated all of my opinions and I'd like a headmin to demote/deadmin/ban me, whatever.

And yeah, you can quote/find contradictions in my statements, but whatever. Whatever you say won't make you a winner.

HOP has assaulted an assistant, served their sentence for that and got relased. Meanwhile you got just said that 'HOP is a traitor' by assaulted assistant, and proceeded to kill HOP the moment he got freed from the brig. And no, I have not revived anyone if I remember correctly.

released

At the moment I feel I know that you and other players from sybil, who haven't even seen me admin there and don't play on basil, want to shout all the way up to get me deadminned about how I handle basil. Yeah. Good job there. Masterfully planned.

admins shouldn't participate in server war posting

I know I make mistakes but at this point, after explaining everything and being ignored, I don't give a damn what some people say when they have no right to. I've alredy stated all of my opinions and I'd like a headmin to demote/deadmin/ban me, whatever.

already

5/10 pretty standard admin post, with some minor extra bait about server wars, points lost for mispelling some basic words though.

He's requested a ban, deal it out.

HOP has assaulted an assistant, served their sentence for that and got relased. Meanwhile you got just said that 'HOP is a traitor' by assaulted assistant, and proceeded to kill HOP the moment he got freed from the brig. And no, I have not revived anyone if I remember correctly.

I remember you actually taking action against me in that case too. You told me the HoP was indeed a traitor, and I can't remember for how long it was, but I remember I got restricted from playing since I hunted down the HoP.

And I have some hard time bringing myself any memories of anyone playing the way you do. No one is killing somebody just because 'they can' or 'they looked at me the wrong way'. Even security will, from time to time, ignore some 'confirmed antag' just because they haven't done any grief yet. They also have means to restrain people safely, not outright kill them. They have means to make it better, either by borging, some kind of interrogation or by putting them in perma, giving a small chance of escape.

I know the admin conduct, I know I probably shouldn't have dealt with your situation to begin with.

Do you even play that often to know that I'm not the only one that hunts for valids? No, probably I'm the only valid hunter in the server you have seen.
Security can deal with antags non lethally because they have at least 3 stuns available on them at any time. How is a normal crewmember going to deal with a traitor non-lethally? Even worse now since prods got nerfed, you either go hard or go home. If an antag gets caught by sec, they need to get better and learn to deal with the opposing force. Not expect to be handed escape chances by sec or admins.

At the moment - you're just playing a victim card how an admin is supposed to act ("... you're here to keep the game fun and fair for the players.") and is not making it fun for you. Maybe you should start making it better for other people, not just yourself. I haven't asked but I believe that several people on basil would prefer a higher rp standard. And since I'm supposed to make the game an enjoyable experience not just for you, but for other people, you have little to say in that matter when you get smacked for your plastyle. Just how antags can get fucked up for being shit, don't think you can't. Doing something that's 'legal' in terms of rules can still violate rule one.

Yeah, and all that is going to shit now since many sybil players have moved into bagil as well ever since sybil got open to the hub. Hell, the ones that keep memeing about "higher rp" standards often tend to be the ones that connect the less. Again, I reiterate, how the hell is a game enjoyable if now we're supposed to act like sugar Hollywood glass for antags? How is it enjoyable for an antagonist doing anything antagonistic if there's no opposition? Damned if you do kill them, and they get respawned with bigger guns to take you down, damned if you don't, you get to enjoy observing the rest of the round in deadchat.

At the moment I feel I know that you and other players from sybil, who haven't even seen me admin there and don't play on basil, want to shout all the way up to get me deadminned about how I handle basil. Yeah. Good job there. Masterfully planned.

I don't even play on Sybil you chucklefuck.

I know I make mistakes but at this point, after explaining everything and being ignored, I don't give a damn what some people say when they have no right to. I've alredy stated all of my opinions and I'd like a headmin to demote/deadmin/ban me, whatever.

And yeah, you can quote/find contradictions in my statements, but whatever. Whatever you say won't make you a winner.

I didn't open this thread to "win" anything. I opened it to see how the headmins deal with this, and to see if we actually do have to act as Hollywood sugar glass or not.

iamgoofball wrote:Can you post the contents of the note you were given, D&B?

720 minute ban on 28/06/2016 by alphaabeta "Killing HOP without any real proof. HOP did assault an assistant, got brigged and relased for that. Please be more careful about murdering people in the future or, you know, don't validhunt." No mention of whether or not the HoP was a traitor, which would seem like an important detail.

Isratosh wrote:

iamgoofball wrote:Can you post the contents of the note you were given, D&B?

720 minute ban on 28/06/2016 by alphaabeta "Killing HOP without any real proof. HOP did assault an assistant, got brigged and relased for that. Please be more careful about murdering people in the future or, you know, don't validhunt." No mention of whether or not the HoP was a traitor, which would seem like an important detail.

That's weird, when I asked Mimic, he told me I didn't had this note, or any related to an HoP or AB.

Are they headmins going to deal with this or just let it fester until the next batch is elected? I think everything has been said at this point and it needs a ruling so we can put this spergefest out to pasture

It didn't leave a note for some reason, just a ban I found on the web database. The note it left could've been removed, and therefore the ban isn't visible in game.

Wyzack is correct.
I should probably lock this pending headmin reply.

I was putting this off because I thought the headmin term was over in like a week and it'd make more sense for the next set to decide on it, but it turns out the election just got moved up 16 days so it could coincide with the US elections and I actually have nearly a month left of this.

Apologies for the delay, there were grave personal matters that prevented me from participating in reaching a consensus with the other headmins.

We don't believe alpha is a bad person, but having seen his attitude towards this whole situation, we are no longer interested in maintaining him as part of the admin team. As such, he has been released from the team.

At the moment I feel I know that you and other players from sybil, who haven't even seen me admin there and don't play on basil, want to shout all the way up to get me deadminned about how I handle basil. Yeah. Good job there. Masterfully planned.

I know I make mistakes but at this point, after explaining everything and being ignored, I don't give a damn what some people say when they have no right to. I've alredy stated all of my opinions and I'd like a headmin to demote/deadmin/ban me, whatever.

I realize that there's still some divisions between Sybil and Basil, but the entire idea that people who took perfectly legal and understandable actions to protect themselves (without you even looking into what happened) are going to be hunted down by admins for dumb reasons and grudges being something you think is acceptable isn't what we want on the administration team. Players don't get to randomly welderbomb other players they don't like when they do something morally grey, and witch hunting people for merely borderline stuff in unacceptable.

This situation is now resolved.