[Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

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ShadowDimentio
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[Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247002

Byond account and character name: Irrelevant

Admin: Bgobandit

Time incident occured: Yesterday night.

Detailed summary: It was dead at night and I felt like playing a little SS13 but it was late and I didn't really want to play anything intense so I just observe. Turns out it's wizard, and I observe him. The wizard is obviously inexperienced and, in lieu of blasting people to bits (at least at first) they ask people to go to sleep so they can shard them. Remarkably several people oblige, including the HoP who runs out of the relative safety of their office and sleeps at the wizard's request, willfully antaging themselves.

Seeing this pretty shitty behavior from a head, I ahelp. BGO is there and dismisses me, saying "Not everyone is a validhunter like you." I respond that yes, clearly I'm the problem here, and receive no further response. After the round ends I give BGO some feedback on his thread, the first he's gotten in about a year, and get another snarky remark defending his actions.
bandit wrote:Not everyone is a validhunter, and the fact that the wizard is taking time to talk to people and make requests of them instead of instantly magic missile-EI NATH means that he isn't one either. I'm not going to punish people for failing to get their valids, and if you expect that then you should take a good look at your playstyle.
He seems to be confused about what the problem was here. I don't care that the HoP didn't try and fight the wizard, that's his choice to make as a player, nor do I care that the wizard didn't immediately start nuking the station (opinion: friendly wizards are boring as fuuuuuck), I care that the HoP, a HEAD, willfully antag'd themselves by sleeping in front of a wizard, at his mere request, with a SOUL SHARD BELT VISIBLE. This couldn't be anything other than a player who wanted to be antag and get their free pass to valid the station, which is against the rules if not in letter in spirit.

I would have been completely satisfied if the HoP had resisted, even if just by telling the wizard no, and got killed and sharded. Would have been 100% fine. But he didn't, the HoP threw themselves at the wizard and got their free antag round and, from what I've heard from another player, proceeded to rampage.
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Armhulen
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by Armhulen » #247003

I witnessed a tiny bit of the sharding but much more of the construct shelling, he did get turned into a juggernaut and then immediately asked "so I can wreck shit now?"

Also keep in mind the hop got shafted in a main hallway, basically giving all access to anyone who wanted it
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247005

X3 combo in shit moves to make as a HoP
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bandit
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by bandit » #247006

Here's an excellent example of why I mentioned validhunting:
The wizard is obviously inexperienced and, in lieu of blasting people to bits (at least at first) they ask people to go to sleep so they can shard them.
Deciding not to go full powergame murderbone does not make one "inexperienced." It means their playstyle is more RP-oriented. If someone has a more RP-oriented playstyle, it's reasonable to expect people to play along, and I'm not going to ban people for doing so. I'm especially not going to ban people for failing to play HoPcurity.

(A disclaimer: I was one of the people sharded by the wizard and turned into an artificer. It was late at night, I was the only admin on, and I was mostly just building floors, so I didn't deadmin for it. The reason I bring this up is that I can speak to what the wizard was actually doing. I ran into him in arrivals, and he didn't instantly kill me. Instead, the wizard and I had a short conversation about whether he supported lizard rights (he said something like "I'm a skeleton, of course I support other races") and then he told me to go to sleep. He didn't mention anything about sharding. I had expected to just be EI NATHED or something like that.)
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247009

Oh great, so the first person he manages to get to fall for his absurdly obvious trick is the admin that deflected criticism of his actions. And I saw that entire scene too, and can confirm that that is what happened.

Also, wanting to RP doesn't make you inexperienced, choosing a terrible spell loadout, hiding your phylactery in your bag, and literally saying in deadchat "I'm a really newbie wizard" makes you inexperienced, dummy.

Also also did you fail to read my post? The problem wasn't that the HoP didn't attack the wizard, the problem is that THE HOP WILLINGLY LET THE WIZARD TURN HIM INTO AN ANTAG
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bandit
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by bandit » #247012

You're still viewing things through a validhunting perspective: "fall for his absurdly obvious trick" vs. "RP along with him"; "choosing a terrible spell loadout" vs. "not minmaxing one's spells". This is why I brought it up. As long as you view things from this play-to-win perspective then everything I say is going to go over your head.

As far as cooperating with antags or "self-antagging," there have been a number of policy threads about it. I swear there was one recently about this very thing but some others:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=3245
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=8547
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=7567 (Not exactly the same, but close)

As far as I am aware it is not something with an official headmin ruling, but I tend to err on the side of encouraging RP, and definitely on the side of not banning people outside egregious cases.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247013

You physically couldn't find a more obvious case of self-antagging than this right here, with the single possible exception being someone getting their sec implant removed and searching for the revhead that converted them in the first place.
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Armhulen
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by Armhulen » #247014

I was given a note for dropping all of my sec gear a long time ago, which like fair enough but the hop dropped bridge and of you spend 10 seconds in the hop office, all access. He should at least get a note for that
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247015

Yeah I wasn't expecting much more than a stern lecture from you or maybe a note, but evidently you have some serious misconceptions here if you don't think this is wrong of a HoP to do.
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by onleavedontatme » #247022

I don't know if it is explicitly spelled out in the rules but willingly joining antagonists has been something that most admins have considered bannable for as long as I can remember (so from 2010)
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by BeeSting12 » #247023

From what I've seen in the story, he literally lied down, got sharded (leaving all his head gear in the hallway, I might add), and immediately asked to go on a rampage. That's not "RP", that's blatant self antagging. Seems like a pretty bad decision on bgo's part.
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bandit
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by bandit » #247027

The thing is, in actual enforcement it's a gray area. Is the captain agreeing to that "pizza party" with the group of five mysterious "pizza deliverymen" considered "cooperating with antagonists"? How about the xenobiologist feeding monkeys to that alien queen they've got in the pen, knowing full well that this inevitably leads to their escape? What about Bay/Polaris style talking people into joining a cult or a revolution? Where is the line between "bad cooperation with antags" and "good emergent gameplay/roleplay"?

These scenarios have a couple things in common. One, the people involved know, OOC, exactly what they are getting into. That's the entire point of role-playing. Two, they make the game more interesting, less repetitive, and often produce good stories. Three, they're not situations that lend themselves easily to clear-cut lines, and they aren't enforced that way either.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247029

Please explain how you sleeping at the wizard's request made the round any more interesting or unique.
onleavedontatme
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by onleavedontatme » #247030

Yeah I think there is a nebulous line somwhere where it's okay to cooperate with them, but I also think

Space Wizard Terrorist: Hey lie down
CO onboard secure research facility that has been issued a firearm: okay
Juggernaut: lol can I kill things now?

Is not really the height of roleplay and good storytelling
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bandit
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by bandit » #247031

ShadowDimentio wrote:Please explain how you sleeping at the wizard's request made the round any more interesting or unique.
Ignoring the fact that a few posts ago this thread was about the HoP, it certainly makes the round more interesting than "GREETINGS! I COME FROM THE WIZARD F-*pew pew lasers combat shottys you wanna put a banging donk on it," which is what you seem to be arguing for.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #247033

I love myself a good round and a good gimmick but this was neither. Hell it's hardly even a gimmick, it's you swapping like two lines with a wizard and then getting sharded. Seriously, you chatted to a moving skeleton for ten seconds and did exactly what he said.

I, unlike you however, realize that it's much easier to have a fun round where you throw """RP""" out the window and instead focus on doing my job as well as I can and scuffling with antags, because a bad gimmick is boring as fuck for all involved.

But regardless BGO you seem just obsessed with turning this into a problem with me, which it 100% isn't. I had zero involvement with this, I was just the guy who saw it happen. Stop trying to rope me into being "THE BAD GUY"
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Qbopper
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by Qbopper » #247051

EDIT: I've reconsidered and decided that it's probably not the best idea to chime in with all of my thoughts, but there's one thing I can't let slide.
I, unlike you however, realize that it's much easier to have a fun round where you throw """RP""" out the window and instead focus on doing my job as well as I can and scuffling with antags, because a bad gimmick is boring as fuck for all involved.
This reads as "your opinion on fun gameplay is objectively wrong". Please, reread this sentence if nothing else, and try to realize that what you find fun is not "correct". That goes for BGO as well - I'm not going to lie, I hold similar feelings as BGO towards the concept of powergaming and find it frustrating, but BOTH parties are convinced the other playstyle is incorrect. There can't be a discussion about the incident in question until people have stopped acting as if the other side is objectively wrong in how they enjoy the game.

The complaint about the ahelp being unprofessional? Totally valid. The argument about the policy in general? I mean, shit, it sure seems like a grey area, and the fact that a. nothing in the rules addresses this and b. this argument is happening shows us that this isn't something that is totally clear as of yet.

Taking issue with BGO acting unprofessional is fine, but I think it's still a bit strange to act as standoffish as he did and expect a resolution
Limey wrote:its too late.
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by D&B » #247075

>But regardless BGO you seem just obsessed with turning this into a problem with me, which it 100% isn't. I had zero involvement with this, I was just the guy who saw it happen. Stop trying to rope me into being "THE BAD GUY"

You're creating an admin complaint thread and being surprised when the person you're criticizing is getting a bit defensive? No offense, but come on man, really?

Did BGO make a mistake here? Maybe. Does that mean we should all shit on him for being the worst admin ever? I'm obviously exaggerating your point of view, but I don't think you're acting fair at all. You seem to be convinced that BGO is either incompetent, malicious, or both, and that's not a very fair stance to be holding. I'm not fully aware of what happened here, I'll admit. But this is a bit of a grey area, and you're acting like this is black and white, right or wrong, with me or against me... it really isn't, and instead of acting confrontational, ignoring BGO's opinion, and generally being rude, you should stop and reconsider.
This whole complaint was created from a complaint on the admin page that was better fit as a complaint. While ignoring willfull conversion for free antag (which other admins have ruled on as being bannable [this being anecdotal experience from when clock cult was first introduced and people would seek out cultists to get converted]) is not a malicious act, ignoring previous rulings or courses of action can be deemed negligent.
For the record: I don't think the person in question is at fault here. Obviously they expected something from the wizard, but how can you possibly know they would have been sure they would get turned into an antag themselves? How do you know the comment afterwards wasn't a joke? Again, this comes off as if you believe everyone involved is in the wrong.
If you had bothered to read the thread you would have known the juggernaut immediately went in a murder rampage.
BGO is spot on with the powergaming mentality, sorry. Deciding to do something that isn't "shoot the blue man" shouldn't be a bannable offense, and while I agree with Kor that it isn't exactly high RP, imo it's fucking funny when shit like this happens. You know something bad will probably happen, but it's funnier to do what the wizard says than to run away, grab a rifle, and start blasting.

If the HoP did it with the intent to become an antag, and they knew that the wizard would do it, then there's something to argue against - but I 100% do not blame BGO for not thinking this is a big deal.

I, unlike you however, realize that it's much easier to have a fun round where you throw """RP""" out the window and instead focus on doing my job as well as I can and scuffling with antags, because a bad gimmick is boring as fuck for all involved.
Playing a head carries with it a certain sense of responsibility in both being responsible and acting in that responsibility. Trying to talk the wizard out of shackling you in eternal serviture/Convincing the wizard to enslave you and spare others is not the same as going to sleep as soon as you're told to and asking if you can smash shit after you get turned into a robust construct of death. Someone asking for this to not be allowed is not a powergamer either, most players would agree walking up to someone to get antag would be shitty too.

Maybe read the whole thread and responses before brown-nosing.
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by Qbopper » #247090

D&B wrote:
>But regardless BGO you seem just obsessed with turning this into a problem with me, which it 100% isn't. I had zero involvement with this, I was just the guy who saw it happen. Stop trying to rope me into being "THE BAD GUY"

You're creating an admin complaint thread and being surprised when the person you're criticizing is getting a bit defensive? No offense, but come on man, really?

Did BGO make a mistake here? Maybe. Does that mean we should all shit on him for being the worst admin ever? I'm obviously exaggerating your point of view, but I don't think you're acting fair at all. You seem to be convinced that BGO is either incompetent, malicious, or both, and that's not a very fair stance to be holding. I'm not fully aware of what happened here, I'll admit. But this is a bit of a grey area, and you're acting like this is black and white, right or wrong, with me or against me... it really isn't, and instead of acting confrontational, ignoring BGO's opinion, and generally being rude, you should stop and reconsider.
This whole complaint was created from a complaint on the admin page that was better fit as a complaint. While ignoring willfull conversion for free antag (which other admins have ruled on as being bannable [this being anecdotal experience from when clock cult was first introduced and people would seek out cultists to get converted]) is not a malicious act, ignoring previous rulings or courses of action can be deemed negligent.
For the record: I don't think the person in question is at fault here. Obviously they expected something from the wizard, but how can you possibly know they would have been sure they would get turned into an antag themselves? How do you know the comment afterwards wasn't a joke? Again, this comes off as if you believe everyone involved is in the wrong.
If you had bothered to read the thread you would have known the juggernaut immediately went in a murder rampage.
BGO is spot on with the powergaming mentality, sorry. Deciding to do something that isn't "shoot the blue man" shouldn't be a bannable offense, and while I agree with Kor that it isn't exactly high RP, imo it's fucking funny when shit like this happens. You know something bad will probably happen, but it's funnier to do what the wizard says than to run away, grab a rifle, and start blasting.

If the HoP did it with the intent to become an antag, and they knew that the wizard would do it, then there's something to argue against - but I 100% do not blame BGO for not thinking this is a big deal.

I, unlike you however, realize that it's much easier to have a fun round where you throw """RP""" out the window and instead focus on doing my job as well as I can and scuffling with antags, because a bad gimmick is boring as fuck for all involved.
Playing a head carries with it a certain sense of responsibility in both being responsible and acting in that responsibility. Trying to talk the wizard out of shackling you in eternal serviture/Convincing the wizard to enslave you and spare others is not the same as going to sleep as soon as you're told to and asking if you can smash shit after you get turned into a robust construct of death. Someone asking for this to not be allowed is not a powergamer either, most players would agree walking up to someone to get antag would be shitty too.

Maybe read the whole thread and responses before brown-nosing.
I missed the ahelp in question, which was poor form on my part, and I edited my reply in response. I do think BGO made a mistake here, now that I saw that, and I think that you make some fair points. The juddgernaut going on a rampage I did see, but I thought the issue lied more in the set up (EDIT: to that situation, that is) than that fact.
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TehSteveo
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Re: [Bgobandit] Poor form, rude.

Post by TehSteveo » #247109

There was several things going on with this one. Firstly, there was a conflict of interest being that at the time Bgobandit responded to the adminhelp they were also playing in which they ended up being sharded themselves and was a construct at the time. They should have deadminned as soon as they were made in a shard by the wizard as they were now an antagonist role. Which there was likely bias here when they were responding due to the ahelp regarding the antagonist they were involved in; which is why we have such rulings for admins to not be adminned while playing as anything important; E.G. Command/Security/AI/Antagonist.

Secondly, there was a case to be made here for self-antagging in regards to the Head of Personnel being as they should show signs of at least minimal resistance to a known hostile entity to the station; especially considering that their position warrants them to carry an energy gun and makes them second in command should the Captain be compromised. I have the ckey of the player in question; I don't think this was fully done for seeking antagonist being the player is somewhat new so I will likely talk to them about the incident to tell them that this behavior is frowned upon and note it for the future due to the nature how they responded when becoming a juggernaut. This behavior can lead to bans if a player does so repeatedly while ignoring warnings.

In addition; to be transparent I will add that Bgobandit was sharded in a similar fashion with sleeping. However, at the time they were playing as assistant and were interacting with the wizard by talking as the wizard was coming off as more the "friendly" variety. The wizard managed to convince them to sleep; of which I feel was more so trickery in my mind that the wizard managed to employ again but it ended up with someone who should be more obligated to resist simply just doing so. In talking to Bandit; they claimed they were not aware they were going to be sharded. As such I can't verify anyone's intention so I also warned Bandit about this behavior as I do not want players seeking out antagonist with the potential to become antagonist. I rather see at least some sense of conflict where a player ends up losing and then ends up serving after losing. At the same time I don't also want to lose the idea that an antagonist may outwit a player which I believe happened here as well; in short I want a middle ground for such behavior.

TL;DR...Bgobandit was in the wrong. They should have been deadminned due to playing as an antagonist responding to an adminhelp related to what they were playing as. Probably would have not had an issue if deadminned. Also, HoP was wrong and should have shown resistance being in their position to a hostile enemy of the corporation. They'll be talked with.
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