Beesting12 1/15/18 Outright Deletion

[Hanador1]

Byond account and character name: Hanador , Peter Vandalmar
Admin: Beesting12
Time and Server: Sybil incident occurred: 2:00-2:50pm, pacific standard time 1/15/2018
ROUND ID HERE: honestly no idea how to find this I tried saving the chatlog but when I did it didn't have the round ID in it so I think I tossed it.
Detailed summary: First I am aware of the rule 1 precedent but I'm complaining because I think there was a better way of handling this.

Me and (Reondin who was Enjoys-Her-Sweets the Cook a changeling antag) (completely unknown to me) fed poly a bunch of crackers which makes the parrot talk a whole lot. We put it in a chair and touched it a bunch of times with a radio nearby the bird started to spam the radio etc. Beesting12 then DELETED the both of us with no prior warning and then deleted Poly.

As I have said earlier I know radio spam isn't protected and all that. I think there was a better way of handing the issue other than deleting an antag and a greytider that beyond clogging up the radio hadn't really hurt anybody or done any lasting damage. Beesting12 could have instead: sent a centcomm message out stating our location we didn't really fortify the place beyond welding a normal airlock, could have simply deleted Poly instead of us, or even warned us to cut out our spam I haven't really been a big rulebreaker in the 5 odd years I've been here I sometimes forget the rules but 99% of the time I follow them and if asked to stop chances are I would have.

[Stickymayhem]

I'll contact a headmin about him deleting Poly. The other two deletions are valid.

[BeeSting12]

Okay okay I'd like to apologize. I really shouldn't have done that. It was straight up abuse of my admin rank and there were definitely better ways to handle it. I understand that I fucked up here, and I'll do better in the future. I will never delete Poly again.

[oranges]

I can't find this in the public logs, how long ago did this happen?

oranges@jumphost:~/logs/sybil$ grep -R 'deleted' . | grep 'ADMIN: beesting'
./08/round-81576/game.html:</p><p class="ADMIN">[16:08:07]ADMIN: beesting12/(MULEbot) deleted the chair at (53, 91, 7)
./08/round-81576/game.html:</p><p class="ADMIN">[16:08:55]ADMIN: beesting12/(Edward Sloan) deleted Edward Sloan at (67, 160, 2)
./08/round-81576/game.html:</p><p class="ADMIN">[16:09:58]ADMIN: beesting12/(Edward Sloan) deleted Edward Sloan at (60, 164, 2)
./08/round-81576/game.html:</p><p class="ADMIN">[16:10:23]ADMIN: beesting12/(MULEbot) deleted the MULEbot (#4) at (53, 36, 5)
./08/round-81576/game.txt:[16:08:07]ADMIN: beesting12/(MULEbot) deleted the chair at (53, 91, 7)
./08/round-81576/game.txt:[16:08:55]ADMIN: beesting12/(Edward Sloan) deleted Edward Sloan at (67, 160, 2)
./08/round-81576/game.txt:[16:09:58]ADMIN: beesting12/(Edward Sloan) deleted Edward Sloan at (60, 164, 2)
./08/round-81576/game.txt:[16:10:23]ADMIN: beesting12/(MULEbot) deleted the MULEbot (#4) at (53, 36, 5)
./15/round-81987/game.html:</p><p class="ADMIN">[22:50:28]ADMIN: beesting12/(Ariel Atkinson) deleted Ariel Atkinson at (63, 162, 2)
./15/round-81987/game.txt:[22:50:28]ADMIN: beesting12/(Ariel Atkinson) deleted Ariel Atkinson at (63, 162, 2)

[BeeSting12]

It happened yesterday

[Sweets]

I asked Arm who showed me rule 1 precedent. So while I think it could have been done more tactfully (like turning me and peter into polys/warning us/making poly sentient and do 1000 damage per hit) beesting was in the right.

[BeeSting12]

giving attention to spammers is bad

[Wyzack]

I hate to give the iamgoofball answer but shouldn't there be a cap on poly's messaging of some kind if we are not allowing it to go that far?

[BeeSting12]

I hate to give the iamgoofball answer but shouldn't there be a cap on poly's messaging of some kind if we are not allowing it to go that far?

There's tons of easily spammable mechanics that we delete or ban for spamming. Poly is no different. The argument that something is a mechanic means it's okay to be spammed is dumb

[SpaceInaba]

aren't antags allowed to do whatever they want?

they're not allowed to break server rules so no

[BeeSting12]

They're not allowed to spam

[PKPenguin321]

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

[Armhulen]

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

>Spamming can result from ingame admin intervention ending in you dying, to admin warnings, to bans for excessive or repeated spamming.

read woman, because the players didn't

[CitrusGender]

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

I will note that Kor specifically has said in discord chat that this is exactly what he does to spammers.
Obviously, it's not how exactly I would deal with this situation but this is by the book and headmin orders, so to say.

[Stickymayhem]

The general rule is spamming, gross shit like WGW and dumb hitlerish names makes you valid, to the crew and admins, whether you are antag or not. Instant gibs are acceptable. Deletions are basically the same without some gore.

It's not a difference in application it's just some admins might feel like watching the crew lynch them or doing it themselves basically.

[PKPenguin321]

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

>Spamming can result from ingame admin intervention ending in you dying, to admin warnings, to bans for excessive or repeated spamming.

read woman, because the players didn't

or just don't be a tightass and maybe try to follow the spirit rather than the letter?
i'm sure you were a player at some point and thought something like hooking poly up to comms would have been funny, not like they were some EVIL SPAMMERS OUT TO GET US or some shit

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

I will note that Kor specifically has said in discord chat that this is exactly what he does to spammers.

that's kind of disappointing

[oranges]

You're out on your own branch there PKP

[PKPenguin321]

You're out on your own branch there PKP

yeah i know the headmins are against it so this is kind of pointless but i mean can't we at least pretend we're trying to all have a good time

[BeeSting12]

come on man theres a big difference between hooking poly up to comms (funny) and feeding poly crackers so you can spam pet him and send hundreds of lines of text through the chat (not funny)

[BeeSting12]

You're out on your own branch there PKP

yeah i know the headmins are against it so this is kind of pointless but i mean can't we at least pretend we're trying to all have a good time

can you explain to me how spam adds to the round or makes anyone have a good time

[PKPenguin321]

You're out on your own branch there PKP

yeah i know the headmins are against it so this is kind of pointless but i mean can't we at least pretend we're trying to all have a good time

can you explain to me how spam adds to the round or makes anyone have a good time

not saying it does, but you can't tell me you never experienced being a newer player and wondering if you could do something like that and then trying it out and being pleased when you see that it does in fact work.

i'm also not saying that's what they were doing because of course i don't know exactly what they were thinking, but i'm guessing something like that is what's likely the case, and if i were the player in that scenario i think a simple PM saying to stop would have been enough for me to cut it out. plus, i wouldn't have to be screwed out of the rest of the round for something that didn't immediately occur to me as something that can get you outright deleted.

just try to see from the perspective of the people who got deleted. i'd be kinda pissed if that happened to me because it's abrupt, the reasoning for it isn't immediately clear, and it's essentially permanent for the rest of the round which can usually go for an hour. meanwhile a PM would have gotten you the same results and would have caused no heartache for anybody.

at least consider why it may have been a better option to PM them rather than immediately making them to be the villain and dismissing their complaint as nothing more than a joke. you can't tell me it doesn't have some merit.

[Armhulen]

anyway beesting didn't do anything wrong basically

[MrStonedOne]

Re-opening so I can say words.

deleting people is really heavy handed
just message them to stop
you should have learned how to use admin PMs when you were a candidate

Basically this.

The general rule is spamming, gross shit like WGW and dumb hitlerish names makes you valid, to the crew and admins, whether you are antag or not. Instant gibs are acceptable. Deletions are basically the same without some gore.

It's not a difference in application it's just some admins might feel like watching the crew lynch them or doing it themselves basically.

I don't know enough of the context here, it really depends alot on how much or how bad the spamming is, but this kinda alludes to what I want to bring up.


We allow people to do varying levels of spamming that I can appreciate how shocking and disorentating it is to the player to have crossing a line the player may or may not have done intentionally lead to such an abrupt and permanent action.

We can do better.

[BeeSting12]

Headmins have said that they're perfectly fine with deletion of spammers. The rules say deletion of spammers is fine. If that is not the case, then please make a change to the rules. Other than that, I see no reason why I should be punished or even sternly talked to for doing something explicitly stated as allowed within the rules. I find it laughable that anyone would even complain about being deleted for spam- I have done this many other times and it usually gets little to no reaction for the deleted person (deletee?), and the most complaining I heard is that I could've done something more exciting.

I'm not pulling logs because I don't feel like it's necessary, but from what I saw, it was pretty bad- bad enough that there was a ticket about it which prompted me to log in. If he's been here for 5 years as he claims, I'm sure he knew there was something wrong with spamming up the radio like that. And that there would be consequences if he did it.

to sum it up: "chat shit get deleted my dude" -oranges 2018

[PKPenguin321]

Even if you're not actioned, and I don't think you should be actioned, you should still consider taking this thread as feedback so you can handle it better in the future. If players have to at least pretend to be sorry in ban appeals, you could at least pretend to incorporate honest feedback when you hear it, even if it's from an admin complaint.

[oranges]

I don't think you should have to incorporate feedback where that feedback is the complete opposite of what the administration team and policy are setting as the tone, if you don't like that tone, take it to policy discussion (goes for you too MSO), but it's not a reflection on beesting's conduct as an admin.

[CitrusGender]

Headmins have said that they're perfectly fine with deletion of spammers. The rules say deletion of spammers is fine. If that is not the case, then please make a change to the rules. Other than that, I see no reason why I should be punished or even sternly talked to for doing something explicitly stated as allowed within the rules. I find it laughable that anyone would even complain about being deleted for spam- I have done this many other times and it usually gets little to no reaction for the deleted person (deletee?), and the most complaining I heard is that I could've done something more exciting.

I'm not pulling logs because I don't feel like it's necessary, but from what I saw, it was pretty bad- bad enough that there was a ticket about it which prompted me to log in. If he's been here for 5 years as he claims, I'm sure he knew there was something wrong with spamming up the radio like that. And that there would be consequences if he did it.

to sum it up: "chat shit get deleted my dude" -oranges 2018

You won't be. You did what you thought was normal and policy.

It was even said that what you did was the reccomended course of action by a headmin. There is no fault on yourself here.
Still, just take this as an opprotunity to see something different from the viewpoint of the Host.

Edit: There are no rules on "deleting spammers," there is only a prevailing interpritation of the rules. "Spamming can result from ingame admin intervention ending in you dying, to admin warnings, to bans for excessive or repeated spamming." is open to interpritation, and MSO just put in his own interpritation as to what the "CAN RESULT" aspect SHOULD be. The rule is literarly not set in stone, the rules say you can ban someone for "excessive" spamming but that's still up to interpretation. It's the heart of the game, honestly, to have fluid rules.

Even if you're not actioned, and I don't think you should be actioned, you should still consider taking this thread as feedback so you can handle it better in the future. If players have to at least pretend to be sorry in ban appeals, you could at least pretend to incorporate honest feedback when you hear it, even if it's from an admin complaint.

I think you is the wrong pronoun here. This is more of a message to the entire admin team. Essentially, MSO is taking something that we thought to be common policy and advised against it, for good reason.

I'm not sure what to do now though, does what the Host say now trump headmin policy? I can only speculate, but I guess it would be yes?

Either way, Beesting did nothing wrong here with the knowledge at the time but MSO probably just created a precedent.

[oranges]

mso just a gameadmin chumbis

[BeeSting12]

everyone whos posted here is a chumbis including me

[Armhulen]

hmmmmm i thought i closed this thread but it appears it has returned