[Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

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[Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Pepper » #392096

Byond account and character name: ANIMETIDDIES - Pepper Mint
Admin: Nabski
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: 9:30PM 3/1/18, Bagil
ROUND ID HERE: 84387
Detailed summary: I opened a ticket after being beaten to death for trespassing in the kitchen by the non-antag chef. Afterwards, my game crashed and I messaged Nabski to let him know I was reconnecting. Here is log of our DMs;
Image

I was not permanently banned, it was just Nabski's cheap excuse to "joke" by riling me up even more in a situation where I was already stressed out. When I finally reconnected 10 minutes later, Nabski resumed the ticket by asking me why I went into the kitchen. I told him that I just walked in and didn't actually do or touch anything, where he proceeds to give me his "reading" of the attack logs, saying: "ok so if i'm reading this right he flashed you, asked you to leave, then killed you" I corrected him, explaining that I walked into the kitchen, the chef had asked me what I was doing there, where he knocked me out, stole all of my stuff, refused to give it back, then killed me when I wouldn't leave. The attack logs are here;
Spoiler:
[02:34:37]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 100) (135,118,2)
[02:34:37]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) Big Bossed with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 87) (135,118,2)
[02:34:47]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 72) (134,122,2)
[02:35:00]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 72) (135,122,2)
[02:35:00]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stomps on with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 54) (135,122,2)
(chef beats me unconcious for walking into the kitchen)
[02:35:15]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stripped Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with of the sunglasses (NEWHP: 54) (135,122,2)
[02:35:26]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stripped Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with of the toolbelt (NEWHP: 54) (135,122,2)
(i wake up)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:35:37]SAY: <b>Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : why (135,122,2)
(the chef hits me again)
[02:35:49]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 44) (136,119,2)
[02:35:50]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 44) (135,119,2)
[02:35:50]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) Big Bossed with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 31) (135,119,2)
(he knocks me out again)
[02:35:58]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) flashed(targeted) Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with The flash (NEWHP: 31) (132,119,2)
(he flashes me, which I assume is what Nabski was talking about)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:36:18]SAY: <b>Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : Give me back my stuff (132,121,2)
(i ask for my items back)
[02:36:20]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 21) (136,121,2)
(he wordlessly hits me in retaliation)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:36:43]SAY: <b>Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : GIVE (132,121,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:36:44]SAY: <b>Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : ME BACK (132,121,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:36:45]SAY: <b>Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : MY STUFF (132,121,2)
[02:36:46]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 19) (132,121,2)
[02:36:46]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) Big Bossed with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: 6) (132,121,2)
(the chef has now beaten me to one hit away from crit, where I take my only retaliation against him that round, a single passive grab)
[02:36:53]ATTACK: Pepper Mint(animetiddies) grabbed Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) with passive grab (NEWHP: 98) (131,122,2)
(note his hp; he uses this grab as the excuse to kill me)
[02:36:55]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -5) (129,121,2)
[02:36:56]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -5) (129,121,2)
[02:36:56]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stomps on with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -23) (129,121,2)
[02:36:57]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -33) (129,121,2)
[02:36:59]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -33) (130,121,2)
[02:36:59]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stomps on with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -51) (130,121,2)
[02:37:00]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -61) (129,121,2)
[02:37:02]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -61) (130,121,2)
[02:37:02]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stomps on with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -79) (130,121,2)
[02:37:03]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) cqc kicked Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -97.6667) (129,121,2)
[02:37:04]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) CQC'd Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -97.6667) (130,121,2)
</p><p class="EMOTE">[02:37:04]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (130,121,2)
[02:37:05]ATTACK: Walks-In-Shade(beardtonguev1) stomps on with CQC Pepper Mint(animetiddies) with (NEWHP: -115.667) (130,121,2)
I die, opening the ticket and crashing where the events described above transpire.
</p><p class="ACCESS">[02:39:28]ACCESS: Logout: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint)

Now, Nabski telling me that "he flashed me and asked me to leave then he killed you" makes it pretty concrete that he did not even read the attack logs properly. Furthermore, throughout this entire exchange, Nabski didn't even bother admin pming the chef to ask for his side of the story. After a while, someone else came along and cloned me. Nabski used this as an excuse to mark it as an IC issue with no investigation into the matter, telling me to "be more robust", citing that because "he flashed me and asked me to leave" (after knocking me out, and stealing all of my stuff) that it was an IC issue, despite his recollection of events holding no objective truth.

After cloning (with a ton of cellular damage) I returned to the bar to ask the chef, once again, to return my stuff. The chef then proceeded to attempt to killbait me into entering the kitchen; logs are here.
Spoiler:
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:03]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : GIVE ME BACK MY STUFF (135,124,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:08]SAY: <b>Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1</b> : What do you expect to happen here (135,122,2)
>[02:49:14]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : I SAID GIVE ME BACK MY FUCKING STUFF (135,124,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:16]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : I DONT VEEN HAVE AN ID (135,124,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:18]SAY: <b>Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1</b> : COme get it (135,122,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:22]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : NO (135,124,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:24]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : JUST GIVE IT BACK (135,124,2)
</p><p class="SAY">[02:49:26]SAY: <b>Unknown/ANIMETIDDIES</b> : I DONT EVEN WANT TO FIGHT YOU (135,124,2)
</p><p class="EMOTE">[02:49:39]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Unknown</b> screams. (135,123,2)
(chef closing the shutters in on me)
Nabski then proceeded to orbit me for the rest of the round, mocking me in adminpms whenever I'd die or make a mistake, such as "YOU TOOK REVENGE ON THE WRONG PERSON" when I killed somebody for an unrelated reason. Afterwards, in the offical tg discord, Nabski joined solely to mock how I was "salting about him".

My problem here is not that the chef involved was banned, but that Nabski made no attempt to investigate the situation, made a baseless claim off of skimming the attack logs, then closed the ticket without looking into it in the slightest, despite my multiple attempts to explain the situation properly. Then he proceeded to orbit me for the rest of the round, mocking me when I screwed up and even taking it into discord, accusing me of being "salty". There is a distinction between being acceptably unprofessional and approaching someone with the intent to be an asshole, and it's my opinion that Nabski crossed into the latter territory here - telling me I was banned when I was just trying to alert him that I crashed, feigning that he knew the situation of my ticket and using that to close it without putting any thought into it, orbiting me to mock me when I screwed up, then following me into the discord voice channel to rub it in. He escalated what should have stayed a short ticket into something a lot more stressful for me solely for the laughs.

I just want him to know that what he did is not cool and it shouldn't happen to me or anyone else again - that if he doesn't want to take tickets that he leaves it to the other admins.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Pepper » #392097

Image

Admin PMs between me and Nabski that round. (click it so it doesn't look like shit)
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Nabski » #392102

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... und-84387/ For anyone interested.

I'm sorry that you were unable to tell that my comments on discord were a joke. The server had crashed for everyone and there was nothing I could do about it at that point. I was not going to respond in any serious manner about anything ticket or in round related in an unlogged channel like discord.

You went into someone elses work area with all access and were asked to leave, you didn't and got your ass kicked then were cloned. From my understanding of escalation the chef didn't really do anything wrong there.

I feel like you're opening this in incredibly bad faith since you had PM'd the previous headmins about this, waited two weeks until we have a new set and then made a complaint.
Last edited by Nabski on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Pepper » #392108

Nabski wrote: I'm sorry that you were unable to tell that my comments on discord were a joke.
I don't know you, we've never spoken, and I'm already stressed out from opening the ticket then crashing; I think it's common sense that it was not the time for jokes if you intended on actually handling the ticket.
Nabski wrote: The server had crashed for everyone and there was nothing I could do about it at that point.
The round ran for another 40 minutes from your initial crash; you even attempted to interrogate me about another issue that same round. There was plenty of time for you to do something.
Nabski wrote:I was not going to respond in any serious manner about anything ticket or in round related in an unlogged channel like discord.
I didn't attempt to talk to you about the ticket in discord, as my screenshot shows - I was just informing you that I'd be coming back.
Nabski wrote: You went into someone elses work area with all access and were asked to leave, you didn't and got your ass kicked then were cloned. From my understanding of escalation the chef didn't really do anything wrong there.

The attack logs I provided go directly against this claim, once again. I walked into kitchen, the chef beat me up, stole my stuff, then killed me when I asked for it back. I did not harm the chef, just passively grabbed him. Quoting from the escalation rules, " (you cant completley destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time)" I did not pose any threat or violence against the chef that round.

Additionally, if that's what you believe happened I'd like logs of the chef asking me to leave. But also, why didn't he just drag me out in the 60+ seconds I was unconscious if trespassing was the issue? We won't know, because you refused to investigate it at all.
Nabski wrote: I feel like you're opening this in incredibly bad faith since you had PM'd the previous headmins about this, waited two weeks until we have a new set and then made a complaint.
What happened to "I am perfectly fine with you escalating this"?
Last edited by Pepper on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by CitrusGender » #392109

Nabski wrote: I feel like you're opening this in incredibly bad faith since you had PM'd the previous headmins about this, waited two weeks until we have a new set and then made a complaint.
I will post a lot more later, but I have discussed this with all parties involved in the original incident regarding the timing. Due to the nature of the complaint and the amount of effort (or lack thereof) that was done to look at the incident in its inception, I have decided to allow for the complaint to be heard. There is some debate as to what authority the current headmin team has over incidents that did not happen in their term, but I would say this is a special case.

I'm not taking any sides, I just see this as a legitimate discussion point that needs to be addressed.

As I said, I will post more later.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Nabski » #392123

Alright, figured I shouldn't edit my first message more as it's turning into quote trees.

I feel like this complaint has multiple levels going on here so I'm going to try to break things down.

Server Crashing/Initial Discord: The server crashed at the beginning of the ticket. I made some jokes on discord when you messaged me. Apparently sarcasm doesn't translate well over discord and you thought that it was somehow serious. This did somewhat mess with my initial investigation of the matter as it reset all my huds, as a result I did not see you were a changeling and did not bother to check it since you were not the one to start the lethal combat. This honestly worked out somewhat in your favor as I went into it with the mentality that you were an innocent party rather than an antagonist.

Initial Ahelp: Here is my interpretation of the original logs. The first thing I looked at was who started the fight in a lethal mode. The answer was him. At that point I went back to see if there was any valid reason he would have escalated to lethal. He had used words to tell you to leave and you declined, instead hanging out in his workplace for no discernible reason. Considering that you are allowed to shuttercrush people breaking in and they even have a form of combat specifically for defending the kitchen I felt he had made a good faith effort to non harmfully attempt to get you to leave. When you declined you were kicked out and cloned, which again felt like a good faith thing of not removing a player from the round. The fact that you were ever flashed at all is somewhat entertaining since you had started off wearing sunglasses which he had to remove from you. The fight went on for long enough that you could have, with your all access and ling powers, just left. Instead you stayed and died. If you had done more than just hang out in his workplace to him such as stealing a whetstone then I would have actually been onto you about banbaiting.

Following you/Later Round: I was orbiting because you were the latest most relevant ticket. I didn't have any reason to go watch something else. At this point I still was under the assumption you were an innocent player on a quest for vengeance so I was hoping to get to see the chef get dunked as I considered CQC a bad addition to the game at the time.

Post round: I did go to join you in the voice chat after the round was over. It looked like it was you and a few other people. I think I said Hi then pretty much instantly left because I realized nothing good was going to come from me being there. Regarding my comment about you making a complaint and "I'm fine with you escalating this". It's my understanding that after this was over you messaged at least one of the headmins, as we ended up discussing it afterwords. Nothing really came of it and I assumed the issue was over. You then proceeded to wait until you then waited two weeks to make this complaint when we have a new set of headmins in some weird double jeopardy thing.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Pepper » #392127

Nabski wrote:Alright, figured I shouldn't edit my first message more as it's turning into quote trees.

I feel like this complaint has multiple levels going on here so I'm going to try to break things down.

Server Crashing/Initial Discord: The server crashed at the beginning of the ticket. I made some jokes on discord when you messaged me. Apparently sarcasm doesn't translate well over discord and you thought that it was somehow serious.
Don't try and point fingers that I'm the dumb one for not getting your totally unfunny and poorly timed "joke". It was uncalled for whether it was your funniest material or not.
Nabski wrote:This did somewhat mess with my initial investigation of the matter as it reset all my huds, as a result I did not see you were a changeling and did not bother to check it since you were not the one to start the lethal combat. This honestly worked out somewhat in your favor as I went into it with the mentality that you were an innocent party rather than an antagonist.
Whether I was an antagonist had no impact on the ticket; I did not use any ling powers during the confrontation (at risk of being put in the gibber, which was VERY close by). So it had no impedance on your investigation at all. What mattered was whether the chef was an antag, which he wasn't.
Nabski wrote: Initial Ahelp: Here is my interpretation of the original logs. The first thing I looked at was who started the fight in a lethal mode. The answer was him. At that point I went back to see if there was any valid reason he would have escalated to lethal.
Correct.
Nabski wrote: He had used words to tell you to leave and you declined, instead hanging out in his workplace for no discernible reason.
You are lying. The chef did not tell me to leavbe before knocking me out and stealing my things, leaving me on the floor. If he had wanted me to leave, he would have just knocked me out then thrown me over the counter. There's a difference between "hanging out" and being unconscious from the chef's CQC for a minute plus. I only stayed when I woke up because he had stolen my things and I was asking for them back peacefully. This is backed up by the attack logs I provided in the OP.
Nabski wrote: Considering that you are allowed to shuttercrush people breaking in and they even have a form of combat specifically for defending the kitchen I felt he had made a good faith effort to non harmfully attempt to get you to leave.
Once again, if that were the case he would have simply knocked me out then thrown me over the counter. If you had read the attack logs, you would know this isn't true. I think this chalks down to you disguising your ignorance of the situation as "good faith". I repeat, the chef knocked me out, stole my things, then killed me when I tried to get them back.
Nabski wrote:When you declined you were kicked out and cloned, which again felt like a good faith thing of not removing a player from the round.
Once again, you are lying. The chef made no attempt to clone me, as proven by the lack of attack logs dragging me to cloning. It was only until a long while later that a random unrelated engineer came by and cloned me. The chef had no intention of bringing me back into the round.
Nabski wrote: The fact that you were ever flashed at all is somewhat entertaining since you had started off wearing sunglasses which he had to remove from you. The fight went on for long enough that you could have, with your all access and ling powers, just left. Instead you stayed and died. If you had done more than just hang out in his workplace to him such as stealing a whetstone then I would have actually been onto you about banbaiting.

Laugh it up, Nabski. I don't know how you expect me to retaliate when the chef wordlessly knocks me out and then steals my sunglasses. Once again, there was no "fight." I was knocked out for a majority of the time, with no way to leave. I could not have "just left", especially when I woke up and my ID was gone. I stayed in attempt to peacefully get it back. Additionally, I hadn't even really "hung out" in his workplace, I was there for all of 5 seconds before he grabbed and knocked me unconscious.
Nabski wrote: Following you/Later Round: I was orbiting because you were the latest most relevant ticket. I didn't have any reason to go watch something else. At this point I still was under the assumption you were an innocent player on a quest for vengeance so I was hoping to get to see the chef get dunked as I considered CQC a bad addition to the game at the time.
So you followed me around for the rest of that time, even after the chef was long dead and decided to comment when I was in a fight with someone unrelated? That's a really poor excuse.
Nabski wrote: Post round: I did go to join you in the voice chat after the round was over. It looked like it was you and a few other people. I think I said Hi then pretty much instantly left because I realized nothing good was going to come from me being there.
You're omitting some pretty important details, such as asking Citrus if I was "salting about you" the second you joined the voice channel.
Nabski wrote: Regarding my comment about you making a complaint and "I'm fine with you escalating this". It's my understanding that after this was over you messaged at least one of the headmins, as we ended up discussing it afterwords. Nothing really came of it and I assumed the issue was over. You then proceeded to wait until you then waited two weeks to make this complaint when we have a new set of headmins in some weird double jeopardy thing.
It's my understanding that the two headmins I approached both told me that they did not want to deal with the situation. I have logs of arm pointing me to kor and kor straight up telling me he didn't want to deal with it, so theres no "Double jeopardy" in an issue that wasn't even heeded in the first place. I waited to make the complaint to make sure I wasn't jumping the gun.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Nabski » #392134

You left out part of the conversation between you and the chef here. I do appreciate that you included at least some of it in the attack logs.

[02:34:10]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : why (138,118,2)
[02:34:12]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : what (136,118,2)
[02:34:17]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : Why are you here (137,118,2)
[02:34:20]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : Explain (137,118,2)
[02:34:22]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : EXPLAIN (137,118,2)
[02:34:26]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : oh (135,118,2)
[02:34:27]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : EXPLAAAAAAAAAAIN (137,118,2)
[02:34:32]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : I have all access (135,118,2)
[02:34:37]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : im flaunting it (135,118,2)
BEATINGS BEGIN
[02:34:46]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (134,122,2)
[02:35:04]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (135,122,2)
[02:35:12]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (135,122,2)
[02:35:18]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (135,122,2)
[02:35:19]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (135,122,2)
[02:35:30]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> snores. (135,122,2)
[02:35:37]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : why (135,122,2)
[02:35:50]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : Clowng gave it (135,119,2)
[02:35:58]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : The clown gave me all access (132,119,2)
[02:36:15]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : Step out, please. (131,122,2)
[02:36:18]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : Give me back my stuff (132,121,2)
[02:36:25]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : AND MY ID (133,121,2)
[02:36:40]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : You can leave now (131,122,2)
[02:36:43]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : GIVE (132,121,2)
[02:36:44]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : ME BACK (132,121,2)
[02:36:45]SAY: Pepper Mint/ANIMETIDDIES : MY STUFF (132,121,2)
[02:37:04]EMOTE: ANIMETIDDIES/(Pepper Mint) : <b>Pepper Mint</b> seizes up and falls limp, her eyes dead and lifeless... (130,121,2)
[02:37:12]SAY: Walks-In-Shade/BeardtongueV1 : Nice bear trap. (131,122,2)
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Pepper » #392137

Nabski wrote:You left out part of the conversation between you and the chef here. I do appreciate that you included at least some of it in the attack logs.
snip
So how does that line up with your account of the logs at all? After I said "I'm flaunting it" I was already on the ground unconcious in less than 10 seconds. The chef didn't tell me to leave until after he had stolen my stuff.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by oranges » #392159

CitrusGender wrote:There is some debate as to what authority the current headmin team has over incidents that did not happen in their term, but I would say this is a special case.
I apologise for posting out of the An0n3 amendment but I just want to address this in my role as the election official.

Once you're a headmin, you have full authority over any incident that occurred at any time, irrespective if it was before the start of your term. There's no limits on you interacting with old incidents.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by Nabski » #392161

That makes sense as you can also unban people at any time. I didn't know they had told you they weren't handling it as they had asked me about it and we discussed it in the discord for a while that evening.
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Re: [Nabski] ANIMETIDDIES - Closing tickets without investigating, harassment

Post by CitrusGender » #392203

Right. I have taken an extremely close reading of the situation and I respect that it has come up to us. There's a few problems here and I would like to address each one.

The issue regarding the discord text conversation that happened during the round
The problem with the internet is that people will often say things that are not understood by the person who has to read them and cannot discern whether or not someone is joking. I think the primary problem in this conversation that happened outside of the game is that neither of you knew the other party and had no idea whether or not the other party was joking. This is a problem that occurs often, though I think it's not exactly a good idea for nabski to say someone is permabanned. Still, I do not feel like this is actionable due to the offhand nature it occured, though I would only encourage nabski to not make jokes like that in the future, even out of game. (though it's really only one of those things that depends on the person and he did not know who you were in this instance it seems.)
Spoiler:
I'll reference the similar judgement that was passed on Mr Alphonzo in a previous ban thread.
Cobby wrote: Also MrAlphonzo if you are talking from the position of a /tg/admin, regardless of platform, I expect the thin line of professionalism to be maintained.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 9&p=325316
The issue regarding admin professionalism ingame (absent of the actual investigation)
Players need to understand that this is still a volunteer job that many of us are doing. This does not mean that admins are allowed to completely shit on players and make fun of them in chat, I would advise against that entirely. However, I would like to note that some of the statements in the ahelp are just inviting hostility. In particular, when ANIMETIDDIES said:
"are you retarded"
"you're not even paying attention"
"what the fuck are you talking about"
Additionally, saying earlier in thread:
"You are lying" when nabski specifically said that was his interpritation of the events.

As such, I am going to make the judgment that the later incident in discord was not unwarranted due to the hostility given to the party in a somewhat professional environment. It is a tall order to ask for an admin to be professional in that regard when the person themselves in the ahelp is bypassing that line constantly. It is even a taller order to expect that admin to be professional to you once the 'somewhat professional environment' has been lifted and you're in voice chat with them. Additionally, I want to state my reccomendation that players do not state in their ahelps that they are going directly to the headmins as a means to change the judgement of the admin in question. Again, this is a reccomendation, but if you choose to do so: please do so without telling them or atleast tell them in a respectable manner. This does not absolve the other two issues.

The issue regarding orbiting his ghost
I'm just going to copypaste this from my notes on the matter:
"- There is nothing wrong with orbiting someone. Often, we will orbit someone when we're looking at their logs. This is just a fact of the game that admins will click follow on people when they're doing stuff, especially if the situation is ongoing or previously happened."
As such, I do not see this to be an issue.

The issue regarding the investigation
As it turns out, nabski's initial consideration of conversation that occured before the fight happened was about correct being that there was a verbal scuffle that occured before the fight. However, I have a few problems with the way that it was investigated and a few concerns I think this case brings up.

First, the question of whether or not someone is an antag when considering the events that followed is a rough question to ask. Although we have to consider the possibility that the party used some information to figure out whether someone is antag that we the admin did not even know, we still should not write off the case or state that we would have written off the case whether we knew that person was an antag or not.
Second, I feel that the investigation was not performed in its entirety in this particular case since nabski appeared to take a really quick interpritation of the events that unfolded, being that the chef basically killed someone who had all access and stripped them of all their items without any concern to bring them to medbay. I would consider this to be a gray area as to whether or not this should be considered adequate escalation.

On one hand, we could consider that the very act of being in the kitchen without the chef's permission is considered to be "wronging" the chef and essentially to be the start of the conflict. In that case, we would consider the incident to be allowed and for Nabski's interpritation of the rules to be correct. Additionally, the "defend your workplace from trespassers" rule becomes relevant here since that was essentially what the chef was doing.
On the other hand, the concept of "wronging someone" just by being in their workplace is not something I would want to validate in /tg/ culture since it opens up way too many problems down the line. If I was to confer with this judgement, would this not mean that we would just resort to absolute murder in every instance that someone comes into your workplace? There is a fine line that can be drawn here and I feel personally that it was broken in this situation, since there was nothing done to instigate the conflict other than the party just being there with all access. Perhaps that is enough, however, to kill someone and take all that they own: I cannot help but think that would be a mistake to let /tg/ go down that route. If this would not be notable, it would atleast be worth a discussion with the chef.

Ultimately, I believe nabski did only a so-so job handling the ahelp but I think he failed to understand that the issue was indeed a gray area in the rules and attempted to give his judgement on such. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, admins are required to make rules on the gray area all the time. Still, I will take this as a strong reccomendation to him that he put more effort into looking over ahelps in the future and to not write off things on the basis that "they're alive" after being cloned or "they're antag." This is not something I believe admins should be doing when they throughly investigate a situation and they should make an attempt to talk to all parties involved for good measure.
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