[feemjmeem] Vaina - Partial and heavy-handed

[Vaina]

Byond account and character name: Vaina/Groose
Admin: feemjmeem
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: Sybil, somewhere around 4:00 p.m CST

ROUND ID HERE: 87249

Detailed summary:

To give a basic rundown of what happened: I was playing Groose, the medical doctor. It was a low-pop round, and things were moving slowly. In came Charles Paynter, barging into medbay to spice things up a little. He began by
pulling a gun, and promptly emptied the full clip into a perfectly still CMO (who remained still for a whopping two seconds or more after the fact). By that point, it was pretty obvious the gun was a fake, as we could both tell with our Health HUDs and the clear lack of damage effected.

That didn't stop the CMO from retaliating with brutal, and possibly murderous, intent. I stepped in to intervene.

I'd previously visited the bartender and snatched a Pan-Gargle to mix with some morphine--exactly for cases like these. I decided to put an end to their fight before it escalated further by subduing the CMO with neurotoxin. The AI immediately called for help, deeming Charles and I guilty in the eyes of security without a chance to explain ourselves. One thing led to another, I finally decided to cooperate and hand myself over to sec, hopefully absolving myself--since they were on the prowl for me. I'm unfairly brigged for a thankful total of three minutes. Charles was executed/taken out. I leave the brig, and that's that.

Except it isn't. As soon as I return to medbay, the CMO starts plying my demotion for a very reasonable response to their bloodthirst--that I served time for. They resorted to lying, getting security on their side once more, to have me arrested for absolutely nothing. At this rate, I decide it's time to deal with the CMO. I entered medbay, fingers crossed, that they've had a last-minute change of heart and would simply leave me be. It fails; they give chase. I shot them with another dose of neurotoxin, originally with the idea to supplant them. But they cried for help. The doors around us started bolting. Under the pressure and my inevitable demise, I felt no other choice but to take the CMO with me. I slaughtered them with a circular saw, booked it to somewhere else, and committed suicide when the mob (security and the AI) closed in on me.

The CMO later got cloned.

Before that, however, the following exchange took place,

Code: Select all

-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem: Okay, then why did you kill them?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.



PM to-Admins: they attempted to murder a guy for shooting a fake gun at them, so i immobilized them. this was enough reason for them to get us both arrested. after i served an undeserved sentence, they actively tried to demote me and get me arrested again

PM to-Admins: despite doing nothing afterward


-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem: You hit them with neurotoxin because they were reacting to what they thought was a real threat. You both served IC time for it, and then they threatened to demote you because you shot them with neurotoxin as previously described, so you shot them with neurotoxin _again_ and killed them. Right?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.

Someone has put your brain in a MMI!

(Click to re-enter)



PM to-Admins: if by thought was was a real threat, you mean took several bullets with no sustained or visible damage, and then decided to retaliate with lethal force, yes

PM to-Admins: they also didn't threaten to demote me

PM to-Admins: they tried


-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem: Okay. That's not appropriate behavior or appropriate escalation. I can see morphining them, _maybe_ even neurotoxining them, but I see no indication that you warned them before shooting them, and they're within their rights to demote you any time they feel like it, because they're your boss. You don't get to kill someone because of that.

I'm going to dissect the relevant bits that I feel need to be addressed--some directly to the admin in question. I don't mean to come off as cross, so I apologize in advance if it seems that way.

PM to-Admins: they attempted to murder a guy for shooting a fake gun at them, so i immobilized them. this was enough reason for them to get us both arrested. after i served an undeserved sentence, they actively tried to demote me and get me arrested again
PM to-Admins: despite doing nothing afterward

-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem:You hit them with neurotoxin because they were reacting to what they thought was a real threat. You both served IC time for it, and then they threatened to demote you because you shot them with neurotoxin as previously described, so you shot them with neurotoxin _again_ and killed them. Right?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.

(Click to re-enter)

PM to-Admins: if by thought was was a real threat, you mean took several bullets with no sustained or visible damage, and then decided to retaliate with lethal force, yes
PM to-Admins: they also didn't threaten to demote me
PM to-Admins: they tried

What this tells me, in essence, is that there was no way I could have been in the right. It looked to me as if you'd already made up your mind, and were merely going through with the formalities. Nothing about this question rings true to what I said. The CMO was never brigged. The time between both conflicts was sizable, yet you make it out like they were done within a short span. Like you didn't bother reading the logs and operated on pure hearsay.

As also stated later, they did not threaten to demote me.

Now, in hindsight, I could have responded to this better. In the moment, was a bit shaken by the BWOINK-shock and couldn't loose my frustration like I should have. It certainly could have been handled with more patience and care.

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem: Okay. That's not appropriate behavior or appropriate escalation. I can see morphining them, _maybe_ even neurotoxining them, but I see no indication that you warned them before shooting them, and they're within their rights to demote you any time they feel like it, because they're your boss. You don't get to kill someone because of that.

This is the message I really wanted to address. I'll try to keep it simple.

Admin PM from-Feemjmeem: Okay. That's not appropriate behavior or appropriate escalation. I can see morphining them, _maybe_ even neurotoxining them,

Implying that subduing someone with neurotoxin is somehow worse than with morphine? This is going to need some explaining, if anyone's able.

but I see no indication that you warned them before shooting them,

I'm supposed to do that while they're in the midst of trying to beat an innocent crewmember? You might have me confused for a Bay player. TG has always been shoot and sort after.

and they're within their rights to demote you any time they feel like it, because they're your boss. You don't get to kill someone because of that.

This. This one is the kicker that rubbed my gears the wrong direction. For as long as I've known this server (Sybil, more specifically), the chain of command has always been a guideline. Nothing more. What would you have me do? Lay supine and allow the CMO to shaft me when they're in the wrong? If /tg/ changed from low-med RP to full-on med-high, feel free to correct me. Then by all means, I'll bend over backwards to let heads, no matter how bad, freely abuse me because "they feel like it".

After all that, I'm hit with the almighty ban.

You have been banned by feemjmeem.
Reason: As a non-antag medical doctor, killed the CMO because the CMO was demoting them after the player drugged the CMO to stop a fight and both were arrested.

This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes. The round ID is 87249.

With that out of the way, I should clarify a few things: I don't care about the ban itself. If I did, I'd be writing a ban appeal. While I can't deny I'm a little bit upset, what I'm really looking for is to acquit myself. This ban message is an assessment that grossly misrepresents the events that occurred, painting me as a shitter. It is in my very personal opinion that feemjmeem does not understand proper escalation, the meaning of IC Situation, or investigation. I don't claim to be a pure angel, or even a model player, but this is by far one of the worst stains on my ((((((relatively okay)))))) record. At the very most, I'm hoping the judging admin is made to redress their approach to situations of this nature.

[CitrusGender]

The nature of how escalation occurs is indeed a winding and twisty one that will often have many difficult circumstances that surround it. Though, I would say that feem's summary of the situation was really a summary of everything that mattered to us as admins.

I entered medbay, fingers crossed, that they've had a change of heart and would simply leave me be. It fails; they give chase. I shot them with another dose of neurotoxin, originally with the idea to supplant them. But they cried for help. The doors around us started bolting. Under the pressure and my inevitable demise, I felt no other choice but to take the CMO with me. I slaughtered them with a circular saw, booked it to somewhere else, and committed suicide when the mob (security and the AI) closed in on me.

The fact of the matter is that you were chased with the belief that you were going to be demoted. That's all fine and well, but then the situation gets a bit more complicated and you shoot them with neurotoxin and they start crying for help. Understand, just because they are crying for help: this situation does not give you a license to kill them since the only threat that was being carried against you was an angry CMO that wanted to demote you. It would make no sense to kill your boss because he is coming after you to demote him.

This. This one is the kicker that rubbed my gears the wrong direction. For as long as I've known this server (Sybil, more specifically), the chain of command has always been a guideline. Nothing more. What would you have me do? Lay supine and allow the CMO to shaft me when they're in the wrong? If /tg/ changed from low-med RP to full-on med-high, feel free to correct me. Then by all means, I'll bend over backwards to let heads, no matter how bad, freely abuse me because "they feel like it".

I want you to think about this. Understand the opposite solution to this, you act like "laying down and allowing the CMO to shaft you" is worse than letting you get away with murder because you were threatened to be demoted. Even with the medium-low rp modifier, you are not allowed to kill someone because you were threatened to be demoted.

Implying that subduing someone with neurotoxin is somehow worse than with morphine? This is going to need some explaining, if anyone's able.

oh yeah, and I'm a medical main here, neurotoxin is much quicker than morphine and essentially puts them down instantly when you shoot them with it. It's, for all intents and purposes, much more effective than morphine.


In any event, I don't see any problem with feem's conduct here. We have an admin team full of people with differing opinions and this seems to be a very sane interpretation of escalation, in my opinion.

[Vaina]

...

I can concede to most of your points. There are some I need to contest, however (for the sake of dialogue. which is what this platform is for).

Though, I would say that feem's summary of the situation was really a summary of everything that mattered to us as admins.

You see, this is precisely the crux of the problem for me. It's worded in such a way that any passing reviewer would see it as an ordeal of me kill-baiting, which simply isn't true. When a complex situation can't be parsed into simple words, it should make you question if it's even worthy of being a problem. EDIT: Aside from that, the presiding admin was clearly misinformed and worked on that false knowledge. They didn't bother to get their facts straight.

I want you to think about this. Understand the opposite solution to this, you act like "laying down and allowing the CMO to shaft you" is worse than letting you get away with murder because you were threatened to be demoted. Even with the medium-low rp modifier, you are not allowed to kill someone because you were threatened to be demoted.

The only two other outcomes I could have seen for this are either: I remain in hiding, rendering me incapable of enjoying any aspect of the round so long as security is there; or I let them shaft me, effectively ruining my round for no real reason.

They got cloned. Bouncing back from assistant-tier or worse isn't that generous.

[CitrusGender]

You see, this is precisely the crux of the problem for me. It's worded in such a way that any passing reviewer would see it as an ordeal of me kill-baiting, which simply isn't true. When a complex situation can't be parsed into simple words, it should make you question if it's even worthy of being a problem.

Oh yeah, that's fine. I could see this note changed to reflect the situation beforehand. We actually had a really long discussion about this specifically and I think there is a lot of complexity to it (though it is still notable.) Still, I do not think there is any substantial grounds for a complaint here just since feem was professional during the ahelp. I'll give Feem some time to respond and we can treat this essentially like a ban appeal if you would like. Nothing in here is really actionable.

[feem]

I don't really have anything to say, but after discussing this with the headmins, I have independently decided to reduce the time to time served and modify the note to be more clear and thorough in describing the incident.

Banned for 720 minutes - As a non-antag medical doctor, killed the CMO because the CMO was demoting them after the player drugged the CMO to stop them from fighting a third individual who had shot the CMO with a nerf gun, and both the player and the third individual served time for the assault(s). You do not get to drug your boss (again) and saw him to death because he wants to demote you for interfering in his dispatch of someone meming on him. Retroactively reduced to 720 minutes from 1440 after reconsideration. Note modified to include more detail.

I want to make some notes, though:

The person you defended was a curator. Yes, they were shooting meme bullets, but as a curator in medbay central shooting bullets, fake or not, at a CMO, they're valid for a lightweight beatdown by pretty much any interpretation of escalation policy or the existing rules and precedents.

You made explicit mention of the fact that you were both wearing health huds, so you must then have been aware that the CMO only did around 20 damage total when they were beating the curator with their own gun before you shot them (twice, hitting once) with a neurotoxin syringe gun that you had in your backpack.

When the CMO decided to demote you for drugging them, you should probably not have immediately jumped to drugging them and sawing them to death.

The fact that you suicided immediately after when being chased does not alleviate you of the responsibility for your actions.

You cannot simultaneously claim that the CMO should not be engaging in such actions and then engage in more egregious actions yourself.

This was NOT a case of escalation. There was no escalation here. The CMO did not act against you in any violent manner. A demotion is not grounds in and of itself for a murder.

[Vaina]

I...

Odds are, this is the best deal I'll be getting. I'll have to take it, even if I'm not entirely happy with the incident being on my record. I've killed and been killed for much less, and never complained or felt the need to. Life is what it is, at any rate. I'm not about to delve into tu quoque territory.

Arguing at this stage is sort of pointless, so I'll try to keep my final considerations straightforward

When the CMO decided to demote you for drugging them, you should probably not have immediately jumped to drugging them and sawing them to death.

It was only when they chased me out of medbay twice, and had me yakkety sax the extremely unrobust security team more than once, that I ultimately took to revenge. There was more to it than just jumping the gun.

You cannot simultaneously claim that the CMO should not be engaging in such actions and then engage in more egregious actions yourself.

In short, you admit the CMO was also in the wrong. It leads me to wonder why only I was the one catechized. Also, what do you mean by more egregious actions? There is nothing egregious about restraining someone well within justification using one of the most benign chemicals in the game. Are you raring for a reason to make me look bad? I'm genuinely curious.

The CMO did not act against you in any violent manner. A demotion is not grounds in and of itself for a murder.

It depends on how you define violence. Did they successfully assault me themselves? No, not quite. Did they maliciously exercise their authority as a head to get me arrested because I stopped them from causing more damage to an innocent? Definitely yes. I served a sentence for actions that, ultimately, did them zero harm. I'd have been happy to leave it at that and carry on without any more bad blood.

Instead, the CMO chose to be vindictive. They chose to abuse their power. They chose to escalate things to where they got.

As I previously raised: the alternatives all involved me getting screwed out of an enjoyable round. In the likely case that I'd been permabrigged per the CMO's request or security's discretion, would you have taken my side then? If the shoe was on the other foot, would you have stood idly as your round got ruined by someone too spiteful to let things slide?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I’m not fully up to date on this, and only operating on information given in the thread, but in my opinion if the CMO decides to re-escalate by lying to sec to get the person who already served a hefty jail sentence thrown back in prison (especially since sec usually super-size prison sentences for repeat offenders), why should he receive admin protection from the person he shafted over 100% maliciously, choosing to get revenge before his inevitable permabrig/gulag/shotgun execution?

[feem]

[2018-04-30 18:35:15.220] PDA: xxx/(Vud Doo) (PDA: chief medical officer PDA) sent "A staff memeber of mine is rogue, keep an eye out for Goose" to Matthew Green (Security Officer) (92,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:36:35.068] PDA: xxx/(Vud Doo) (PDA: chief medical officer PDA) sent "he is back just acting odd" to Matthew Green (Security Officer) (101,105,2)

[2018-04-30 18:32:13.685] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : yeah? (96,100,2)
[2018-04-30 18:32:39.617] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : don't act out in my medbay understood? (96,100,2)
[2018-04-30 18:33:21.942] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : set suit sensors to maxium (96,100,2)
[2018-04-30 18:35:30.091] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : I rather not (88,101,2)
[2018-04-30 18:37:58.873] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : you are fine (95,103,2)
[2018-04-30 18:38:21.783] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : ai help (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:38:39.263] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : I don't care (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:39:06.925] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : dective (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:39:13.834] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : can't get up (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:39:25.937] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : scan me (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:39:33.490] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : activate it for drugs (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:39:48.745] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : thanks (95,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:41:49.418] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : (101,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:44:31.465] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : goose your fired (97,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:46:17.010] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : not a clue (103,106,2)
[2018-04-30 18:47:12.291] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : what are you doing? (93,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:49:25.488] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : here is the lizard's stuff (97,104,2)
[2018-04-30 18:49:30.731] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : and goose is the rogue (97,104,2)
[2018-04-30 18:49:44.760] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : if you could remove his access card that would be great (97,104,2)
[2018-04-30 18:49:55.784] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : thanks (96,104,2)
[2018-04-30 18:52:20.913] SAY: Vud Doo/xxx : ai help (83,99,2)

This is everything that the CMO said or PDA'd to anyone up to the point that you killed them.

While they're only barely literate, I don't see them explicitly lying about you or going out of their way to trump up charges. They said you were rogue (which isn't unreasonable from their perspective given that _you hit your boss with neurotoxin when they were dunking a trespasser_) and that you were fired, and warned security that you were back and 'acting odd.'

[Vaina]

[2018-04-30 18:35:15.220] PDA: xxx/(Vud Doo) (PDA: chief medical officer PDA) sent "A staff memeber of mine is rogue, keep an eye out for Goose" to Matthew Green (Security Officer) (92,105,2)
[2018-04-30 18:36:35.068] PDA: xxx/(Vud Doo) (PDA: chief medical officer PDA) sent "he is back just acting odd" to Matthew Green (Security Officer) (101,105,2)

I don't know about you, but this was enough for the HoS to immediately pull his gun and start snapping shots at me. Suspiciously after the CMO chased me out of medbay. The detective followed (and maybe others, but I can't recall if there were). From my perspective, the CMO had used private channels--either command directly or PDA--to get me arrested a second time for, again, no reason. Which as seen here, is definitely the case.

They said you were rogue (which isn't unreasonable from their perspective given that _you hit your boss with neurotoxin when they were dunking a trespasser_) and that you were fired, and warned security that you were back and 'acting odd.'

Does this not exactly constitute as perjury? Stopping them from dealing with a "trespasser" (i.e the curator having harmless fun) in the shittiest way possible does not make me "rogue" by any stretch. It makes them a superbly awful player. If by acting strange you mean... returning to my place of work. Then yes, I was "acting strange". Intentional or not (it was. the detective told them to contact if anything went awry), they had me on a wild goose chase with dire implications.

All I take from this is that you immediately sided with the accuser--and continue to side with them--for the mere fact they were the one to accuse, never once thinking to account for my point of view. From the very moment you messaged me, it read like you were resolved to ban. I was placed in an unwinnable situation. You try hard to excuse their terrible behavior and actions in the fairest manner possible, while only arraigning mine. How come I'm not afforded this basic, professional courtesy?

[feem]

After considering things from your point of view, I both added context to the ban note and reduced the time of the ban.

I "immediately sided with the CMO" because, in summary, you killed your boss for demoting you after you syringe gunned him.

And you syringe gunned him because you "immediately sided with" the curator, who it turns out was trespassing, was meming on the CMO, and was eventually (by your statement) executed by security.

The initial mistake you made was interfering with your boss's justified, and not-particularly-harmful (20 damage} takedown of someone who, under the rules regarding protecting your department from trespassers and protecting yourself from assault (perceived, in this case), was valid to be taken down.

The follow up mistake you made was in killing him when he, not entirely unreasonably, moved to demote you specifically for the interference and more generally for syringe gunning him in the face.

I need you to realize that, regardless of your feelings in the matter, this is not a reasonable escalation path as at every step you were the one who inserted yourself into the situation and who executed the next violent act.

[Vaina]

I "immediately sided with the CMO" because, in summary, you killed your boss for demoting you after you syringe gunned him.

And there it is. The removal of all context to paint a reductive, one-sided picture where I'm the villain. I've explained everything in thorough detail as to why I did what I did. If you think a slightly prolonged taser-shot equivalent is an offense worthy of having my round ruined, I don't know what to say.

And you syringe gunned him because you "immediately sided with" the curator, who it turns out was trespassing, was meming on the CMO,

There is a stark difference between being a reactor in a situation where one person is the very obvious aggressor, and being the arbitrator with the time to mull things over and the tools to make an educated verdict. Beating someone down until there's actual blood on the floor, for shooting a nerf gun, as the head of a department expressly there to heal people, is not reasonable in any measure. It makes you a hyperaggressive shitter.

The initial mistake you made was interfering with your boss's justified, and not-particularly-harmful (20 damage} takedown of someone who, under the rules regarding protecting your department from trespassers and protecting yourself from assault (perceived, in this case), was valid to be taken down.

The follow up mistake you made was in killing him when he, not entirely unreasonably, moved to demote you specifically for the interference and more generally for syringe gunning him in the face.

This is what I spoke of. You regard the CMO's actions as charitably as you can. You sugarcoat it by chalking it up to "it was just 20 damage", when if it were not for my intervention, would have been much, much more. You then vilify my actions through wording such as "syringe gunning him in the face", instead of what it actually was: a simple stun. The CMO's actions were not decided over sound rationale; they were decided on sheer spite because I robbed them of a valid.

Demoting someone for putting an end to your drubbing of an innocent as the head of medical, is supremely shit. I really cannot see why you're doing everything in your power to defend this. I did my duty as a medical doctor by preventing further brutal harm to a fellow crewmember whose only crime was trying to have a little innocent fun. I escalated nothing.

[Vaina]

Why is this ban/note appeal in admin complaints?

As previously established, I'm not too fussed up over the ban itself. It's the reasoning behind it, and the lack of blame I have in all of it.

I posted this to ensure incidents like this don't repeat. For myself and others. Many can agree that this was a bad call of judgment, and on top of the original ban message, terribly misinformed. If these sort of bans are the thing I can expect in the future, that worries me.

[onleavedontatme]

You two are not going to reconcile your views on this situation and the headmins seem uninterested in intervening on your behalf.

It's painful watching you guys go in circles and the only thing anyone is accomplishing is making the other mad at this point so I'm going to lock the thread (though of course the other two headmins are always welcome to come unlock it if they disagree with Citrus).

[Rustledjimm]

A headmin has already replied that they see no issue with the admin's conduct.

I am re-iterating that just incase it wasn't clear.

Complaint closed.