[RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

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[RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby 1919191919191919 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:42 pm #420248

Byond account and character name: OmegaShoots - The Honkfather

Admin: RandolftheMeh

Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: 6/22 or 6/23

ROUND ID HERE: 89915

Detailed summary: Shift starts, I'm playing clown, I head on my way to the hopline to pull some prank, throw some pies around, and in the line behind me is the detective, with his id on the table.
I took it and beelined to his office, opened it up, took one of the det's whiskey bottle and threw it on the ground. I started picking up some other things to throw around, one which was his shoulder holster, and threw it back at him. I get batoned and arrested for my pranks, all is well.

However there was a doctor that was there watching the whole thing, and while I'm being arrested and searched, feels like grabbing onto me and telling the detective "I'll potato him, I'll potato him", runs out of the detective office with me, the det chases, we stop and the det says "I don't care what you do, do whatever".

I'm taken to surgery, stripped, n2o tank strapped to me and I'm put under for surgery, which is when I ahelp. Randolf unfortunately gets my ticket, and based on my previous (and literal only) interaction with him when he rudely answered my ahelp, was done with it but doubled back and revised his judgement from a note to a ban which I had to (successfully) appeal, I knew this was going to be a bad time.

He says he's talking to them, comes back to say that the det handed them over to the doctor and that they told them to do it. I say I was being arrested and the doctor just took me while the det basically said yea whatever. They asked what I did, I told them b&e and throwing things inside the det's office. They close the ticket and mark it IC.

Confused I ahelp again, quoting rule 1 of "Don't be a dick" and asked what their IC justification was for nuggetting me. Randolf's response? "You were stealing the det's gun and the doctor witnessed it all so they have every right to be doing this."

First, if I was actually there to steal anything I'd have my shoes off and would have actually STOLEN the gun, not stand on one tile and throw the holster back to him across the room and await my punishment.
Second, I had no interaction with said doctor, this doesn't follow escalation policy in the slightest. Even if it had been sec that was going to nugget me, the crime to warrant such a punishment would need to be REALLY bad, borderline being confirmed antag or something such as raiding the armory or attacking security. As it stood, the only interaction up to that point with the doctor was them shoving me while I got arrested.

Following the surgery being done, they kept me handcuffed, tied me to a chair, and dragged me out into the halls to let anyone do what they wanted to me. They also apparently told the captain that I stole the cmo's id and was attacking people in medbay because the captain comes in, wordlessly takes me to gulag and says that I did these things and that the doctor told them so. A borg had to save me.

I go to get replacement legs in robotics, the doctor follows me and attempts to have my surgery stopped and to permanently keep me in the state that I was in.



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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby RandolfTheMeh » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:03 pm #420266

Right, so you broke into the detective's office, and a doctor drags you away to nugget you after the detective handcuffs you. You adminhelp after getting set up for the surgery, and so I talk to the doctor, who says he intends to take off your legs for what you were doing to the detective, as opposed to all limbs as nuggetting would entail. I tell him to hold off, I talk to the detective, find out you stole his ID and messed up his office, as well as whatever your interaction with his gun holster was (he said you tried to strip it from him, but for whatever reason it was just lying out?), and so I rule this IC. Him keeping you detained, tied to a chair, was not okay, and so that's on me for not ensuring your punishment didn't end after the legs getting taken off, but you were incredibly insistent on having admin intervention for what was really backlash for doing stupid stuff. I had to warn you that by opening a fourth ticket on the same matter that I'd have to mute you from adminhelps for the rest of the round in order to get you to cease- as you had sent them all prior to the operation finishing, going so far as to quote Rule 1 at me. If this is a violation of Rule 1 on the doctor's behalf for trying to carry out the surgery, then indeed I do deserve punishment for not understanding the borderline between dickish behavior and non-dickish behavior, but to me this was a conflict between two people being dicks to other people- but one was reactionary, and the other unprovoked.

So you get your legs removed for dicking with the detective, a borg intervenes afterwards and gets you to robotics where your legs are reattached. The doctor attempts to intervene in the operation to prevent your legs from getting reattached, but is too late, and so you end up spacing him.

EDIT: Here is the logs of our adminhelps:
Spoiler:
[2018-06-23 07:34:02.293] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #4: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): i think i'm being nuggetted - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-06-23 07:35:11.138] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): Talking to them now
[2018-06-23 07:40:03.104] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): So I talked to the docs who took you in, and they said they were handed you by the det.
[2018-06-23 07:40:30.364] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): i was getting arrested for a minor crime and the det let them take me and said "I don't care what you do to him"
[2018-06-23 07:40:40.675] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): What was this minor crime?
[2018-06-23 07:40:54.081] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): clowntiding, took the det's id to go into his office and throw some things around
[2018-06-23 07:41:14.049] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): Right
[2018-06-23 07:41:14.365] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): so b&e i guess

Marked IC at this point

[2018-06-23 07:42:37.264] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #8: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): a minor crime is grounds for me to be nuggetted on orders from a detective? - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-06-23 07:43:28.289] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): Taking the det's ID, as well as attempting to take his gun holster, are both within the bounds of what I'd consider acceptable for what those doctors are doing. They're not technically nuggetting you.
[2018-06-23 07:43:44.884] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): i wasn't attempting to take his gun holster, i picked it up and threw it to him
[2018-06-23 07:44:02.422] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): i was throwing things around like a briefcase and his alcohol
[2018-06-23 07:44:56.173] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): like i wouldn't ahelp if he beat the shit out of me but i'm being delimbed and permanently screwed over for the rest of the round

Closed at this point- you admitted to being okay if he just beat the shit out of you, but not okay with having your legs removed (which get put on later [and is ironic considering you space the doctor and made him "permanently screwed over for the rest of the round", instead]).

[2018-06-23 07:53:47.357] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #9: OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): rule 1; don't be a dick . We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Could I please get the IC justification for the doc to take my legs over a minor crime they have no investment in and how going into the det's office warrants a punishment such as this under space law - heard by 1 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.
[2018-06-23 07:57:30.069] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->OmegaShoots/(The Honkfather): Listen if you open another ticket I'm muting you from ahelps over this. It's an IC issue because the det handed you off to some docs who knew more-or-less what you did, and gave you an operation fitting for it.


With me and the doc:
Spoiler:
[2018-06-23 07:34:47.261] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg): Yo, you got a sec?
[2018-06-23 07:34:52.490] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): Hm?
[2018-06-23 07:34:59.980] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg): What went on between you and the clown?
[2018-06-23 07:35:29.865] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): Clown was breaking into Detective's office and trying to steal his shit. Detective went meh after he caught the clown. I'm just removing his legs.
[2018-06-23 07:35:59.247] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg): If you could hold off on cutting his legs off for just a moment, that'd be appreciated. I need to talk to the clown/det.
[2018-06-23 07:36:07.672] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): Alright.
[2018-06-23 07:36:39.150] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): It's Pride Month. Disabled awareness would be represented by the clown in this fashion.
[2018-06-23 07:39:20.463] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg): Almost done with the investigation I'll let you know when I'm done
[2018-06-23 07:39:30.818] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): No worries.
[2018-06-23 07:41:33.775] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->IcarusTre/(Grump E. Greg): If it's just his legs w/e, tickets done, you're free to act.


And with the detective:
Spoiler:
[2018-06-23 07:36:24.972] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft): Yo, got a sec? Need to ask you about the clown, and him breaking into your office.
[2018-06-23 07:36:29.770] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): yeah
[2018-06-23 07:36:35.848] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft): So he broke into your office?
[2018-06-23 07:36:41.156] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): He stole my id twice
[2018-06-23 07:36:52.436] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): and went for my gun holster
[2018-06-23 07:38:02.099] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft): I've got some logs of you stunning/shooting him, when did this occur in respect to him trying to take your gun/ID?
[2018-06-23 07:38:15.382] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): That was when he took my id
[2018-06-23 07:38:20.102] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): I stunned then shot him once
[2018-06-23 07:39:07.422] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft): Right, and lastly, did you tell the docs who took him to do anything in particular?
[2018-06-23 07:39:18.054] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft)->RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy): Nope, just said I don't care what he does
[2018-06-23 07:39:28.491] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: RandolfTheMeh/(Gunther Viceroy)->HommandoSA/(Rusty Pycroft): Gotcha, thanks
Last edited by RandolfTheMeh on Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostThis post was deleted by Armhulen on Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:11 pm.
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PostThis post was deleted by Armhulen on Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:11 pm.
Reason: reply to deleted post

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby 1919191919191919 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:36 pm #420273

There's a difference between a punishment fitting the crime, and the punishment of near permanent crippling caused by someone I had no interaction with, with repeated attempts from them to keep me crippled.

And yes, apparently they did lie because the gun holster was simply laying on the ground, which I threw back to the det.

>but to me this was a conflict between two people being dicks to other people- but one was reactionary, and the other unprovoked.

Had sec been the one to do the surgery, then you could have some kind of argument to this, however poor of a justification it would be.
This was done by a third party that I had not done anything to, just because they wanted to, being the one to suggest it while I was in the middle of being arrested.

>clown does one clown thing
>someone sees it and takes it upon themself to delimb clown when clown did nothing to them

Is this really how things are going to go?

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby RandolfTheMeh » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:40 pm #420274

Right because this near permanent crippling prevented you from spacing this doctor fifteen minutes later.
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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby 1919191919191919 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:49 pm #420275

After a group of people had to help keep the doctor away from me while I got surgery that he kept coming to to drag me away from, while saying "Security said to keep him delimbed", when in your own ahelp logs and IC when I confronted the det about it, the det never said to cut my legs off.

So yes, I quoted rule 1 in the ahelp because this was very clearly a rule 1 issue. I never interacted with the doctor, all they did was witness me go into det's office and throw a single bottle, and throw the gun holster BACK to the det that dropped it on the ground.

It didn't even need to get to that point, all it could have taken was a "Hey the clown isn't a antag that you know of, and they never harmed you or anything, you can't just cut his legs off because you feel like it, let him go and let security deal with it", but you let it continue to get to that point where I had to put an end to it.

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby oranges » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:33 pm #420294

>willing to do the crime
I head on my way to the hopline to pull some prank, throw some pies around
>not willing to do the crime
this thread

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:32 am #420311

With Randolf on this one. You might not have intended to steal the detective's gun, but to the doctor it absolutely would have looked that way, maybe even the detective as well. When you consider their perspectives, their retaliation towards you makes sense, which means that this is an IC issue.
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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby 1919191919191919 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:15 am #420316

Not seeing it.
If I picked up an officer's taser on the ground and threw it back over to them across an entire room, if anyone could see that as, reminder a clown, trying to steal it, then they're deliberately misrepresenting the events.

If I had actually taken it for any length of time and ran with it or put it in my bag, then again, maybe that would be looked at as some justification for SOME punishment.

We then go back to what the actual punishment was, a complete delegging.
Not even 10 minutes into the round.
By someone who I did not interact with.

Ask the questions to yourself and look for these answers: Who did I antagonize? Now who dealt out a punishment for that antagonization?

Do the answers you've come to follow the escalation policy? Is the doctor's repeated efforts to keep me crippled justified?

Did any of this have to happen if the initial incident was hanlded properly (either ICly by a proper arrest or from the friendly nudge to maybe not nugget someone if they didn't do anything to you when the ahelp went through)?

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:19 am #420317

Of course you're not seeing it, you weren't the doctor or the detective and refuse to even consider what they might have interpreted what they saw
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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby Nilons » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:49 am #420319

If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.


Even if you completely ignore the fact that you can't seem to understand a difference in viewpoint or missing information for any of the parties involved you wronged a player, (theft) and then he retaliated by letting the doctor take your legs off. You played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. Stop acting like you were permanently removed or hampered in the round when you had your legs put back on 10 minutes later

Everything he did is correct under the current escalation policy

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby Armhulen » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:00 am #420323

Nilons wrote:
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.


Even if you completely ignore the fact that you can't seem to understand a difference in viewpoint or missing information for any of the parties involved you wronged a player, (theft) and then he retaliated by letting the doctor take your legs off. You played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. Stop acting like you were permanently removed or hampered in the round when you had your legs put back on 10 minutes later

Everything he did is correct under the current escalation policy

i'm going to go with this. complaint denied

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby CitrusGender » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:23 am #420346

I don't think that having your legs cut off for committing a crime is something we want to encourage after they've bene lawfully detained. If someone is detained and under control and then you take the step to remove their legs when you're not involved in the instance, that's just unnecessary. All that encourages is just torturing prisoners and it provides an avenue for conflict that basically would be unnecessary under most circumstances. A prisoner isn't able to fight back and even if they did bullshit to begin with, opening the door to abusing them is just going to encourage mob rule.

Technically this doesn't fit under escalation policy since the doctor wasn't the person who was wronged.

This isn't a complaint as much as a rule clarification though. Randolf didn't exactly do anything wrong but I don't think this should have been allowed. You can't needlessly torture prisoners that have lawfully been detained. The complaint is still denied but I'm going to clarify my position on this rule unless arm/rustled want to dissent.
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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby Armhulen » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:28 pm #420382

It's allowed because all they are doing is fucking with people, in a normal round we should not be protecting griefers.


>but clown!
A. ok, so don't ahelp when you die or
B. just do clown things that don't involve provoking people

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby Rustledjimm » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:45 pm #420384

I'll post my full opinion when I get back from holiday tomorrow night. I'm sure you can all wait a day.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback!

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Re: [RandolftheMeh] OmegaShoots - Nuggetting over minor crime deemed IC issue

Postby Rustledjimm » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:45 pm #420996

This is a pretty grey area case from what I can see. From what I can see you had your legs chopped off for tiding because you were provoking folk. Myself I might have spoken to the doctor a bit more but I can see why Randolf listed this as an IC interaction. You later did your own IC retaliation for the Doctor's efforts. I don't want to encourage this type of punishment at all and it should be the exception rather than the rule but the admin did nothing wrong during his investigating and he was right to ask you to stop as per rule 6.

This complaint is closed. I see no wrongdoing here from Randolf.
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