[Lmwevil] - tlaltecuhtli - misjudgement

[Tlaltecuhtli]

Byond account and character name: Tlaltecuhtli
Admin:Lmwevil
Time and Server(Bagil or Sybil) incident occurred: 2018-09-25 01:30:45, Bagil
Round ID: 94431
So after being almost abducted by aliens, i go grab a gun from sec (there was no sec and brig was wide open), the rd in a gygax for some reason was also in bring and shooting people down, i mind my own business and go near the protolathe, an assistant dressed as officer stuns and strips me, and finds a bunch of grenades, after he also arrest the RD who was shooting the captain while dragging me then he sees a ninja (loyalist) and promtly asks the ninja to net me and i get teleported to ninja prison, then i ahelp about how a not antag willingly asked an antag to remove me from the round and handed me to him, after some discussion he marked it as an ic issue because the antag removed me, even if i was handed to the antagonist by a greytide dressed as officer for little no reason (if he wanted to apply security law, it was possession of contraband which doesnt end into an execution).

On my eyes this is a law 1 violation as he cuffed me and voluntarly asked an antagonist to remove me from the round.


full logs: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... /game.html
incriminating logs:
[2018-09-25 12:13:04.784] SAY: 12:13:04.784] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "Ninja" (Brig Control (107, 173, 2))
[2018-09-25 12:13:08.154] SAY: 12:13:08.154] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "Want to capture the RD" (Brig Control (107, 173, 2))
[2018-09-25 12:13:10.785] SAY: 12:13:10.785] SAY: Saprasam/(Manley Jyllian) "And this person here" (Brig Control (107, 173, 2))

[BeeSting12]

I'm not going to argue about about whether the reasoning was any good or not, but handing someone to an antagonist and telling them to kill/remove them from the round definitely makes you responsible for what happens, similar to how ordering the AI to kill a lizard makes you responsible for the lizard's death, not the AI.

There is of course a difference between handing someone over to an antagonist and not helping them out when they're getting killed, and there's grey areas such as bucklecuffing someone in the brig and then them getting killed by a ninja a couple minutes later. (Not the officer's fault, he can't predict that).

[lmwevil]

oh a thread was actually made - i don't really have much to add tbh, i said it all to you multiple times.

but i guess you decided 'to get a real admin' via the forums.

good luck!

[Erik489]

I was the Space Ninja that round. I heard that the RD was in the brig gunning the captain down, so I went along with helping the crew since I was hired by Nanotrasen. I had an objective to capture live subjects, and have come to the conclusion that Brick Carr was going to be a nuisance to the crew after the assistant had them cuffed and informed me of the grenades. I figured Brick was up to no good since they were cuffed by a security officer (I did not know they were an assistant until later on) and the brig was essentially No-Man's-Land after a previous raid had carved a path from the wardens office to the armory. I drained the brig APC for power and captured them. The RD was dragged off by another person, thus I could not capture them. The complaint is really about the assistant handing me Brick. I can confirm that they (Manley Jyllian) did ask me to capture them from the logs that Tlaltecuhtli provided. I went along with it, and captured Brick, never hearing from the assistant again from that point on.

[Malkraz]

AI for that round. Witnessed the whole situation with the RD in the brig and saw cuffed Brick and the ninja. Couldn't hear them from my sat and moved along before he was captured.
Manley was the only substitute security for the first 98% of the round and had to deal with quite a lot of hectic stuff mostly by himself. Brig had been busted into a few times over and he most likely assumed Brick was working with the RD. Considering this and his use of "capture" I don't believe he had any malicious intent, just wanted to remove a problem he couldn't keep handling by himself. Prior to the relative chaos he had been taking proper steps to give out fair sentences such as with the clown killer bartender. Hope this adds some context.

[Arianya]

We've opted not to uphold this complaint

Not because lmwevil ruled correctly, the person in question absolutely shouldn't have offered you up to the antag for netting (which functionally speaking is "for death", since theres no escape from weebland). As Beesting notes, if you offer someone up to an antagonist like that, you become atleast partly if not majorly liable for their death, even if you didn't do the deed of murder yourself.

We expect a lot from our admins, but admins make mistakes. If they didn't we wouldn't have Ban Appeals or Admin Complaints, and so we expect our admins to do their utmost to avoid mistakes.

In this complaint and its associated logs, I don't see a trial admin rashly making a incorrect decision, I see an admin conferring with other admins, asking for opinions, and on the weight of those opinions making a ruling. This is absolutely the correct way to go about this, even if in this instance it produced the wrong answer.

I apologize that in this case the rules we're not enforced as they should have been, but I find nothing actionable in this complaint.