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[Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:49 pm
by APaRist
When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Terry
Byond account and character name: APaRist, James Blaine
Admin: Peoplearestrange
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE:113699
Detailed summary:
I was playing assistant when a security officer called Colton Bousom (not an antag) stunned me, took me to the brig and then proceeded to search me. The reason for this was that he "saw me skulking in maint near corpses" (I wasn't). He then say that I sent some PDA messages to a man named Dougie Jones (I think?) who was apparently a changeling. Based on this he concluded that I must be a changeling to (nevermind the fact that changelings can talk telepathically), and proceeded to decapitate me with a fire axe (which would not kill a changeling). He did not consult with the other security officers that were standing next to him before cutting my head off. I reported this in an adminhelp and was told that the admin was looking into this. I didn't hear back from them.

At the end of the round I saw that the security officer was not an antagonist. I was very confused by this, so I adminhelped again. After asking them again after the restart, before in the next round I got this response:
-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Peoplearestrange: Yes they found evidence (be it bad and the WRONG) evidence and made a bad decission. They didn't go out their way to hurt random people they THOUGHT they were doing the right thing. This is the POINT of changelings, they make people paranoid and make the wrong disission. Im 100% sticking behind my conviction of this. Thank you.

I have a few things to say about this:
[*] "Yes they found evidence (be it bad and the WRONG) evidence and made a bad decission." No reasonable person would call that evidence. If anything, talking to a changeling on PDA is evidence that I'm NOT a changeling.
[*] "They didn't go out their way to hurt random people" they went out of their way and hurt me
[*] "they THOUGHT they were doing the right thing." "Yes, Your Honor, I did kill my wife and my son, but I thought I was doing the right thing!" Conviction is really no excuse, is it? Can people not be punished if the admins believe that they are sincerely stupid?
[*] "This is the POINT of changelings, they make people paranoid and make the wrong disission." The point of changelings is for security to kill people for no reason? That's TDM. You're describing TDM.

I know security can make mistakes, and I know a lot of really stupid people play security. But can we maybe hold them to at least some standard? Is not being killed for talking to a changeling really that much to ask? I mean, the sec officer thought I was a changeling and their colleagues talked to me so by that logic they could have killed everyone in sec without any kind of punishment.

(Besides, doesn't the captain or HoS have to allow an execution? I may be misremembering that.)

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:18 pm
by peoplearestrange
Firstly this sounds more like a "I didn't get the response I wanted to from an admin call" as you haven't mentioned what I did wrong specifically as an admin.

Ok lets address the ling thing first as I feel its mostly what this is all about. During a ling round paranoia is high due to anybody potentially being able to be a ling or a ling is able to mimic someone is probably a simpler way to put it. This is intentional part of the round type. It causes people to draw poor conclusions, to make bad judgement calls and ultimately other people often pay this with their life, particularly innocent people.
In this case the officer had witnessed a few horrific deaths to a changeling and had also been stung themselves in the corridors a few times. When they caught you with what they thought was skulking about and then used the PDA messages as confirmation that you had been talking with another known ling. Now obviously this isnt 100% proof but they lept badly to conclusions. They also then asked the HoS whether they should execute you a fair few times. From what I can tell the HoS told them to cremate them, but after they decap they seemed to think it was an ok idea? Either way the HoS seems to have given permission for this, so they weren't trying to circumvent the correct route.

This leads me to the most important bit, that I do not believe that Colton was trying to TDM as you put it (though I think you mean RDM as TDM usually stands for Team Death Match). They were simply a scared security officer in a round with lings doing desperate things to keep control as things spiral around them.
One officer killing someone who they were THOUGHT was a ling, is NOT the same as attacking people maliciously for no reason.

Ultimately rule 6 here comes into play. The admin team (because I believe another admin actually initially started the reply to the original ahelp) made a call that their intentions were not breaking the rules and that it was entirely an IC thing.

If you have any other complaints about my behaviour as an admin rather than the round, please make that here. Otherwise this isn't a complaint about me that I can see.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:23 pm
by BeeSting12
I originally investigated this. The officer made a poor judgement based on the circumstantial evidence he had: your PDA messages, a bloodied cleaver, you being in a changeling killspot were a few of the ones he named. Part of the changeling round type is innocent people getting caught in the cross fire as they get arrested for crime a ling impersonating them did, killed because of paranoia they create, etc. Please look at rule 10 if there are any more questions.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:32 pm
by APaRist
peoplearestrange wrote:Firstly this sounds more like a "I didn't get the response I wanted to from an admin call" as you haven't mentioned what I did wrong specifically as an admin.

Ok lets address the ling thing first as I feel its mostly what this is all about. During a ling round paranoia is high due to anybody potentially being able to be a ling or a ling is able to mimic someone is probably a simpler way to put it. This is intentional part of the round type. It causes people to draw poor conclusions, to make bad judgement calls and ultimately other people often pay this with their life, particularly innocent people.
In this case the officer had witnessed a few horrific deaths to a changeling and had also been stung themselves in the corridors a few times. When they caught you with what they thought was skulking about and then used the PDA messages as confirmation that you had been talking with another known ling. Now obviously this isnt 100% proof but they lept badly to conclusions. They also then asked the HoS whether they should execute you a fair few times. From what I can tell the HoS told them to cremate them, but after they decap they seemed to think it was an ok idea? Either way the HoS seems to have given permission for this, so they weren't trying to circumvent the correct route.

This leads me to the most important bit, that I do not believe that Colton was trying to TDM as you put it (though I think you mean RDM as TDM usually stands for Team Death Match). They were simply a scared security officer in a round with lings doing desperate things to keep control as things spiral around them.
One officer killing someone who they were THOUGHT was a ling, is NOT the same as attacking people maliciously for no reason.

Ultimately rule 6 here comes into play. The admin team (because I believe another admin actually initially started the reply to the original ahelp) made a call that their intentions were not breaking the rules and that it was entirely an IC thing.

If you have any other complaints about my behaviour as an admin rather than the round, please make that here. Otherwise this isn't a complaint about me that I can see.


BeeSting12 told me to complain here so I did. I still believe that a security officer who kills an innocent bystander for no reason other than that they are scared should be punished. If you piss yourself at the thought of dealing with antags don't play sec.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:54 pm
by peoplearestrange
APaRist wrote:BeeSting12 told me to complain here so I did. I still believe that a security officer who kills an innocent bystander for no reason other than that they are scared should be punished. If you piss yourself at the thought of dealing with antags don't play sec.
And this is the right place to complain. But again I'm not sure what there is to complain about.

And if you don't like the risk of getting killed sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Then this is the wrong game for you sometimes you just lose, to quote rule 10.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:13 pm
by APaRist
peoplearestrange wrote:
APaRist wrote:BeeSting12 told me to complain here so I did. I still believe that a security officer who kills an innocent bystander for no reason other than that they are scared should be punished. If you piss yourself at the thought of dealing with antags don't play sec.
And this is the right place to complain. But again I'm not sure what there is to complain about.

And if you don't like the risk of getting killed sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Then this is the wrong game for you sometimes you just lose, to quote rule 10.

I'm aware of that, what bother me is that someone killed me for no reason other than that I talked to a changeling and is not getting punished for it. If the amount of evidence needed to execute someone is that low this might as well be a team death match server where the teams are security and everyone else

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:00 am
by peoplearestrange
Again, I stand by the judgement that was made in game. I think I've explained my reasoning and actions as best I can. This is all I have to say on the matter.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:24 am
by Not-Dorsidarf
My question is this: If he really thought the guy was a changeling, why did he do just about the one form of execution that *doesnt* kill a changeling, decapitation?

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:44 pm
by peoplearestrange
Honestly I don't think they knew that it didn't perma kill them. Also from the logs it looks like they were planing on doing something else with the head? Theres mention of securing it.
Still little off topic from an admin complaint

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:08 pm
by Not-Dorsidarf
For some reason I thought this was your feedback thread instead of an admincomplaint.

Admincomplaints consisting solely of "I didnt like their decision" are usually little more than thinly-veiled ban requests and this complaint clearly fits that description to a T. I dont see anything which could in any way be described as actionable about PAS's decision or responses; whether it was correct to let them go or not.

Considering the actual substance here is "Sec should need more evidence to execute suspected changelings", I'd recommend a Policy discussion instead of wasting people's time.

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:26 pm
by peoplearestrange
It's nearly been 40 days since this was opened... can some decide on an actual outcome please?

Re: [Peoplearestrange] APaRist - This is a TDM server now

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:39 am
by wubli
We have decided not to uphold this complaint.
The security officer was indeed in the wrong, but again, this game is driven by paranoia. This situation happens ALL the time - innocent people being killed because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This person even talked to the HoS to ask them if they should execute you. Their only crime was being wrong and inexperienced, but we cannot blame him for that unless it's their habit to kill with flimsy evidence. You were unlucky, and it sucks, but we don't believe Peoplearestrange made a mistake.
Apologies for the delay. We cannot post a reply until every headmin has given their opinion.
Locking this.