[NecromancerAnne][Hulkamania] deedubya - Incredibly poor handling of a ban appeal

[ATHATH]

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Forums
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: deedubya (not my account; it's someone else's)
Admin: NecromancerAnne and Hulkamania
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: Not Applicable
Detailed summary: Hulkamania recently closed this ban appeal (which was made against a ban given by NecromancerAnne): https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23648

The tldr; of that ban appeal is that a guy walked into chemistry (through a bolted open door) and requested medical assistance, the two chemists wordlessly killed him, the guy ahelped the chemists, the chemists cloned the guy, then the guy demanded that the chemists give him his stuff back, at which point the chemists killed him AGAIN (but the guy fought back this time). The guy who walked into chemistry was the one who was banned for this, not the chemists (although the chemists were warned). Apparently, this was because he had ahelped about the situation and then tried to resolve it himself ICly... But this was literally just him asking for his stuff back and defending himself when he was attacked again. He wasn't SEEKING a new conflict, he just wanted his stuff back (which the chemists apparently thought was something that he deserved to die for). Furthermore, NecromancerAnne had given deedubya (the player of "the guy" in the story above) no indication that they were resolving the situation/conflict through administrative means.

How the hell is ANY of this deedubya's fault? Was he supposed to just stand there and die without fighting back AGAIN because an admin MIGHT have seen his ahelp and be talking to the chemists about a PREVIOUS CONFLICT without telling deedubya that they were doing so?

As far as I am aware, the ban appeal has been closed and the note from the ban appeal hasn't been removed from deedubya's account. If the note from the ban had been removed, I wouldn't bother complaining here, but it hasn't been removed and could cause future administrative actions/punishments against deedubya to be more harsh (per the precedent set in that one ban appeal that I don't have a link to right now)... because deedubya didn't know that NecromancerAnne was already resolving a somewhat separate situation/conflict.

[MortoSasye]

This complaint isn't following the template, please fix it.

[ATHATH]

This complaint isn't following the template, please fix it.

Will do.

[ATHATH]

This complaint isn't following the template, please fix it.

Will do.

Done.

[Hulkamania]

As already stated in the ban appeal itself, the first part of the conflict was completely valid both in his retribution and in the way he handled the situation. The issue arose when he continued to push it after he had already been cloned. If you're cloned and continue to fight back against someone because an administrator is not answering you quickly enough, you are not suddenly immune to the rules or to retribution.

Again: Nothing he did IC was out of the question, the problem arose when he continued to ahelp and request that they be banned (which he continued to do on the forums, meaning he didn't even learn his lesson) despite the fact that he initiated the conflict during the second engagement.

Thirdly, you are not even tangentially involved in this conflict, ban appeal, or the administrative action that took place and frankly this complaint has little ground to stand on as a result of that. The only person who is effected here is deedubya.

Fourthly, the rules for this forum state "THIS BOARD IS FOR SPECIFIC INSTANCES OF MODERATION OR ADMINISTRATIVE POWER ABUSE." I do not see how anything here is an instance of such. You in particular seem to have a habit of turning every single perceived slight against someone in the community as your personal crusade, when you had nothing to do with the situation at hand.

If deedubya expresses that they wish to uphold this complaint on their personal end and reply to the thread, they can do so, but I see little reason from a moderation standpoint that you would have anything valuable to say about the situation itself.

[RandolfTheMeh]

I don't like to typically post, and I haven't done much research into this so as to be able to pull quotes here, but afaik it's been considered abusive to punish an individual for their appeal. Doing so dissuades future appeals, which besmirches the process altogether, regardless of how warranted it may be. Modifying an individual's note/ban reason after discussion is fine, but with an explanation such as

But given how you've acted in this thread you honestly seem to me to be a horridly poor actor and someone looking for loopholes to try and get away with bad behaviour. Attempts at rules lawyering or pandering for the establishment of new precedents on threat of unbanning, or the banning of other actors is, quite crudely, being a massive toxic cunt.

I'll not be removing the note and will instead amend it further after this thread to clarify that given the resulting appeal you may attempt to use it as justification for poor escalation in similar scenarios, and that any attempts from you to act upon that are to be considered extremely seriously.

'amending' it further after this thread to clarify that given the resulting appeal reads exactly like "your behavior in this appeal is bad so it's going on your note history", which is something that's been strongly discouraged against in the past. I know it's not as extreme as upping a ban length, something that's clearly and objectively a punishment for appealing, but this reads very similar, and creates nothing but bad faith between players and admins when someone outside of this interaction reads it.

[ATHATH]

As already stated in the ban appeal itself, the first part of the conflict was completely valid both in his retribution and in the way he handled the situation. The issue arose when he continued to push it after he had already been cloned. If you're cloned and continue to fight back against someone because an administrator is not answering you quickly enough, you are not suddenly immune to the rules or to retribution.

How is asking for your stuff back (and then fighting back when an attempt is made on your life for DARING to ask for the things that you need to continue being a productive member of society/do your job back) considered to be continuing to "push it"?

Again: Nothing he did IC was out of the question, the problem arose when he continued to ahelp and request that they be banned (which he continued to do on the forums, meaning he didn't even learn his lesson) despite the fact that he initiated the conflict during the second engagement.

Again, how could asking for his stuff back be considered to be starting a conflict? If anything, it was the chemists who were starting a second conflict when they decided to attack deedubya with intent to kill for asking for his stuff back.

Thirdly, you are not even tangentially involved in this conflict, ban appeal, or the administrative action that took place and frankly this complaint has little ground to stand on as a result of that. The only person who is affected here is deedubya.

Fourthly, the rules for this forum state "THIS BOARD IS FOR SPECIFIC INSTANCES OF MODERATION OR ADMINISTRATIVE POWER ABUSE." I do not see how anything here is an instance of such. You in particular seem to have a habit of turning every single perceived slight against someone in the community as your personal crusade, when you had nothing to do with the situation at hand.

These are two valid points that I shall not dispute.

... Well, I'll dispute a part the first one a little bit. If deedubya had made yet ANOTHER thread about his ban/the handling of his ban, he'd have been dismissed as simply being salty. Me opening this thread shows that he's not alone in his opinion(s) about the ban/the handling of the ban. Just because I wasn't involved in a poor bit (note the usage of the word "bit"; you're normally a pretty chill/based headmin, hulk) of admin(ial?) conduct and/or its consequences doesn't mean that said admin(ial?) conduct wasn't bad/poor.

If deedubya expresses that they wish to uphold this complaint on their personal end and reply to the thread, they can do so, but I see little reason from a moderation standpoint that you would have anything valuable to say about the situation itself.

Alright, I'll shut up until he decides to uphold (or not uphold) this complaint, then.

[Hulkamania]

Again, how could asking for his stuff back be considered to be starting a conflict? If anything, it was the chemists who were starting a second conflict when they decided to attack deedubya with intent to kill for asking for his stuff back.

To quote the man from himself in his thread: "The only even mild culpability I'll own up to is the second entry"

When the entire ban itself was based around the part he is here referencing, the rest of the circumstances around it being handled by NecromancerAnne, this is the only part that matters. This line here is admitting that they took things somewhat too far given the circumstances. This is still entirely IC and okay, there is nothing wrong about what occurred in starting the second conflict, and he was totally justified in doing so. The issue arises when he ahelps again requesting that they get banned, it very much comes across as someone intentionally going out of their way to get in a fight again so they may ahelp about it to get the people involved banned. This is what the original ban/note was about, and when the same behavior is continued in the thread with them requesting that the other two people be banned outright this is why it was upheld. He wanted them banned because he was mad.

Anne has already admitted that they were at fault for not letting them know it was being looked in to, and I agreed that administrators should let people know ASAP that they're looking into a matter. Anne was acting in good faith to resolve the issue with the chemists when Deedubya continued to take things into his own hands.

And on a more "technicality" level, he wouldn't have known off the bat that the chemists had his gear to begin with if it was taken during his cloning. You are not aware of the IC events that transpire while you're deceased so making a bee-line to them using that information is mildly meta to begin with, but that's just a side comment and not really the meat of the issue.

[deedubya]

I will be upholding the complaint, for reasons that should be very obvious to anyone that isn't automatically assuming bad faith on my part, which seems to be both NecromancerAnne and Hulkamania in this instance, as demonstrated with this quote below:

The issue arises when he ahelps again requesting that they get banned, it very much comes across as someone intentionally going out of their way to get in a fight again so they may ahelp about it to get the people involved banned.

This is not the case at all, as I've attempted to explain multiple times both on the spot in ahelps, and during the ban appeal process itself. I am treating the two engagements as separate cases of escalation, as it should be treated. I explained that I didn't have an opportunity to send a second ahelp while I was dead, and I then attempted to solve the issue IC due to a lack of admin response on a very, very clear incident of rule breaking. I did not enter the department again with even the mildest intention of using a potential second engagement to get them banned unless I was again over-escalated upon. Which happened anyway, so that's a moot point. Any action I took on a separate case of engagement and escalation should hold zero bearing on the judgement of the preceding case of random murder and over-escalation.

To quote the man from himself in his thread: "The only even mild culpability I'll own up to is the second entry"

I shouldn't have even said this. I was assuming that me non-harmfully walking into a non-KoS department twice made me valid, which shouldn't be the case. In what universe is walking into a department to demand stolen goods be returned considering "taking things too far"? Again, if anything, I was well within my rights to remove both of them from the round permanently if I so chose at that point. They had zero right to murder me, strip me, then murder me again when I asked for my ID and jumpsuit. There was zero response from either of the admins online during the several minutes it took them to heal and defib me. I have zero way of knowing that an admin was even dealing with the issue, much less even paying attention whatsoever. Even so, a subsequent altercation that I still was not at fault for doesn't suddenly exonerate them of the fact that they blatantly over-escalated the prior "engagement" with no legitimate justification. That was why I sent the second ahelp, because it was clear to me at the time that the issue was not being investigated whatsoever.

Anne has already admitted that they were at fault for not letting them know it was being looked in to, and I agreed that administrators should let people know ASAP that they're looking into a matter.

Then she should have ended it there, wrote off the entire situation as miscommunication on her part, and removed the note, instead of continuing to assume I acted in bad faith. It really shouldn't be that fucking difficult. I sent two ahelps over a legitimate issue over a person clearly violating the server rules, and was then punished for following up on the unanswered ahelp.

But given how you've acted in this thread you honestly seem to me to be a horridly poor actor and someone looking for loopholes to try and get away with bad behaviour. Attempts at rules lawyering or pandering for the establishment of new precedents on threat of unbanning, or the banning of other actors is, quite crudely, being a massive toxic cunt.

This again continues to assume I've acted with toxic intentions during the entire process, when the opposite is true. Do not try to talk down to me and try to tell me what my own intent was, then lock the discussion to prevent me from defending my position. I've explained numerous times in both ahelps during the incident and during the ban appeal itself that I did not start an altercation with the intent of getting someone banned. I had zero intention to start an altercation period. I first entered an area with the intent to commit suicide. Evident by the fact that I had an o2 tank in my hand(or pocket) cranked to max pressure at the time I was murdered. The second incident, I entered the area with the intent to retrieve my stolen property. I did not even attempt to start conflict or retaliate during the first engagement, and retaliated only when lethal conflict was started with me in the second engagement. If you can't see how it's utterly ridiculous to hand out a ban for "ban baiting" after this, then you have absolutely no business with any disciplinary tools, and is the primary reason I am upholding this complaint that someone completely unrelated and uninvolved made on my behalf after seeing the completely unacceptable conduct put on display. As for my "threat" of changing my method of escalation? What lesson was I supposed to learn from being banned for ahelping that? The only lessons to be learned from my banning and subsequent note are "you're valid if you enter someone's workplace twice for any reason, legitimate or not, disruptive or not" and "do not rely on the admins to deal with obvious rule breakers".

As for my tone during the entire discussion, I will offer a partial apology. This is the tone and attitude I use when speaking to my 6 and 8 year old nephews. In other words, the tone I use when I have to explain concepts to children who fail to understand what they've done wrong. The big difference here is that those children are far more understanding and far less prideful, and are able to admit to wrongdoing and correct their actions in the future. The fact that you've been continuously steadfast in your assumption of bad faith on more than one occasion(this isn't the only time I've dealt with such banbot behavior from you, but it's the only time where you were 100% in the wrong) tells me that you were a poor choice to be holding the ability to dole out discipline to anybody, and I hope you lose it in the future. Nothing personal against you, because outside of your administrative actions you've been perfectly pleasant to deal with. But as an admin, you're far too heavy handed and too stubborn to negotiate.

And on a more "technicality" level, he wouldn't have known off the bat that the chemists had his gear to begin with if it was taken during his cloning. You are not aware of the IC events that transpire while you're deceased so making a bee-line to them using that information is mildly meta to begin with, but that's just a side comment and not really the meat of the issue.

Fun fact, I didn't even see while ghosting if they had taken my gear or not. The doctors who treated me said they didn't have it, so I made the next logical assumption and figured the people who murdered me for no reason would have also stolen my gear. I still don't even know if they had it, but the fact that they refused to answer me and instead resorted to murder once more should speak leagues about the situation.

He wanted them banned because he was mad.

To end off the whole discussion. I wanted(and still want) them banned or otherwise disciplined for breaking the rules. I don't give a flying fuck if I die in a 2d spess man simulator. I care when toxic members of the community continue to roam free, blatantly ignoring the rules and then being favored by admins to the point that their victims get punished for even attempting to question their actions. If this had happened to anyone else, I probably would have done what ATHATH did and make a complaint on their behalf as well. I'd like to thank him again for putting his own posting privileges on the line for the sake of the community at large.

[Hulkamania]

I fully understand the fact that you're mad that an incident went poorly in an in-game situation. I also understand being upset that NecromancerAnne used strong language with you, but in their defense you have openly admitted to treating them like a child instead of a professional. Attempting to resolve a situation in which you believe you were misrepresented is not going to go in your favor if you do not treat the other person with professionalism.

As was previously stated, the lack of communication on the ahelp has already been discussed but I bring it up again because that is an admission of fault. You say they are "too stubborn and heavy handed" but they have already admitted their mistake in that regard. As far as the remainder of the situation, lets look into some of the logs, pulled from https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 019/08/19/

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:33:56.042] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Cat broke in." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:33:57.468] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "That fucking chemist is a traitor" (Cryogenics (85, 101, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:02.856] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Not the one with the bedhead" (Cryogenics (85, 100, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:03.387] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "We defended our posts." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:06.060] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Rin." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:11.758] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "im just trying to vape" (Chemistry (103, 106, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:13.656] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Yes" (Cryogenics (86, 99, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:17.334] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Where's all my gear?" (Cryogenics (86, 99, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:22.479] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "So, They're inc ryo." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:31.222] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Sorry you got brought down for that." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:45.115] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Captain" (Medbay Central (98, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:45.475] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "You have a good one, Captain." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:51.815] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "That piece of shit murdered me in cold blood" (Medbay Central (98, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:10.096] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "You're arresting the wrong person" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:24.315] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Fucking execute that traitor" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:28.307] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "He killed me and stole all my shit" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:30.680] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Its used in firefighting foam" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:38.159] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Which we clearly need" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:43.907] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "He tabled me and set me on fire" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:47.874] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Askt he other chemist" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:56.048] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Are they?" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:01.263] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Just chop his head off and be done with it" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:12.115] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Take the cat back out." (Chemistry (102, 101, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:31.591] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Give me my shit back you syndie fucker" (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:38.850] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "LEave" (Chemistry (100, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:41.502] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "You should leave." (Chemistry (103, 105, 2))

As you can see, despite the previous altercation they both tell you to leave before anything happens, as you are once again in their department.

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:35:26.669] ATTACK: SpookiBoogi/(Fasa Al Kharim) has sprayed with Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) with the medical spray (rhigoxane) which had /datum/reagent/medicine/rhigoxane (10u) (NEWHP: 73.4) (Medbay Central (97, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:01.174] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has slipped on the [floor] (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:07.840] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (100, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:14.777] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with onto the glass table (table) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:33.645] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:35.161] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:37.937] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with onto the glass table (table) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:45.912] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has stripped the leather satchel off Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (101, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:46.596] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (100, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:47.557] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 93) (Chemistry (101, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:50.244] ATTACK: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) has splashed Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) with Chlorine Trifluoride (80), (NEWHP: 93) (Chemistry (101, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:51.589] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 90) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:52.460] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 88) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:53.395] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 84) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))

In response to them telling you to leave, you decide to keep shoving them around in their own department, then take their things, so they fight back.

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:36:54.058] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:54.362] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 81.3) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:54.965] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:55.283] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 79.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:55.862] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 79) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:56.292] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 71.8) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:56.965] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 79) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:57.797] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 73.4) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:58.276] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 67.5) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:58.604] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 69.4) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:59.191] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 63.5) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:00.495] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 69.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:00.754] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 60.4) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:01.137] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has slipped on the [floor] (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:03.228] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has kicked Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 50.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:03.811] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 69.2) (Chemistry (100, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:06.898] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has kicked Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 48.5) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:07.667] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 42.8) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:07.985] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:08.461] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 40.9) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:08.898] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 59.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:09.401] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 39) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:10.265] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 54.2) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:10.692] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 29.8) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:11.431] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 49.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:11.491] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 23.1) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:12.301] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:12.400] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 21.2) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:13.065] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:14.588] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 21.3) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:15.065] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.009] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 14) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.205] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.899] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 6) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:17.089] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:17.310] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has slipped on the [floor] (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:18.162] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: -3.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:18.163] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has got a stun punch with their previous punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: -3.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))

The remainder of this conflict is the two of them killing you.

So let me summarize here: You came out of cryo, went into their department, they ask you to leave, you begin shoving them around and attempting to steal their things, then you decide to ahelp about it after you die from said engagement.

Let it be known that for the umpteenth time, this ban is not about you getting in a fight with them and if it was valid or not, this ban is about you getting into a fight then only ahelping trying to get them banned after you baited them into an engagement. Please tell me how you entering their department (for the second time this shift), shoving them around, trying to take their items, then getting killed for it is not you baiting them into an engagement.

Edit: I neglected to mention you didn't just shove them, you shoved them onto a glass table, which is something that is not non-lethal.

[NecromancerAnne]

'amending' it further after this thread to clarify that given the resulting appeal reads exactly like "your behavior in this appeal is bad so it's going on your note history", which is something that's been strongly discouraged against in the past. I know it's not as extreme as upping a ban length, something that's clearly and objectively a punishment for appealing, but this reads very similar, and creates nothing but bad faith between players and admins when someone outside of this interaction reads it.

You know what that's a fair cop. I feel like I'll probably hold off on doing that since I'm not entirely convinced now that's really a good idea.

[deedubya]

I fully understand the fact that you're mad that an incident went poorly in an in-game situation. I also understand being upset that NecromancerAnne used strong language with you, but in their defense you have openly admitted to treating them like a child instead of a professional. Attempting to resolve a situation in which you believe you were misrepresented is not going to go in your favor if you do not treat the other person with professionalism.

As was previously stated, the lack of communication on the ahelp has already been discussed but I bring it up again because that is an admission of fault. You say they are "too stubborn and heavy handed" but they have already admitted their mistake in that regard. As far as the remainder of the situation, lets look into some of the logs, pulled from https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 019/08/19/

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:33:56.042] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Cat broke in." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:33:57.468] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "That fucking chemist is a traitor" (Cryogenics (85, 101, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:02.856] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Not the one with the bedhead" (Cryogenics (85, 100, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:03.387] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "We defended our posts." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:06.060] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Rin." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:11.758] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "im just trying to vape" (Chemistry (103, 106, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:13.656] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Yes" (Cryogenics (86, 99, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:17.334] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Where's all my gear?" (Cryogenics (86, 99, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:22.479] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "So, They're inc ryo." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:31.222] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Sorry you got brought down for that." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:45.115] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Captain" (Medbay Central (98, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:45.475] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "You have a good one, Captain." (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:34:51.815] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "That piece of shit murdered me in cold blood" (Medbay Central (98, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:10.096] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "You're arresting the wrong person" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:24.315] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Fucking execute that traitor" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:28.307] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "He killed me and stole all my shit" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:30.680] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Its used in firefighting foam" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:38.159] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Which we clearly need" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:43.907] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "He tabled me and set me on fire" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:47.874] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Askt he other chemist" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:35:56.048] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "Are they?" (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:01.263] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Just chop his head off and be done with it" (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:12.115] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "Take the cat back out." (Chemistry (102, 101, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:31.591] SAY: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) "Give me my shit back you syndie fucker" (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:38.850] SAY: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) "LEave" (Chemistry (100, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:41.502] SAY: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) "You should leave." (Chemistry (103, 105, 2))

As you can see, despite the previous altercation they both tell you to leave before anything happens, as you are once again in their department.

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:35:26.669] ATTACK: SpookiBoogi/(Fasa Al Kharim) has sprayed with Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) with the medical spray (rhigoxane) which had /datum/reagent/medicine/rhigoxane (10u) (NEWHP: 73.4) (Medbay Central (97, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:01.174] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has slipped on the [floor] (Medbay Central (98, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:07.840] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (100, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:14.777] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with onto the glass table (table) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:33.645] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:35.161] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:37.937] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with onto the glass table (table) (NEWHP: 92.5) (Chemistry (102, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:45.912] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has stripped the leather satchel off Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (101, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:46.596] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 100) (Chemistry (100, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:47.557] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 93) (Chemistry (101, 102, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:50.244] ATTACK: Mokou-tan/(Mana Sayuri) has splashed Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) with Chlorine Trifluoride (80), (NEWHP: 93) (Chemistry (101, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:51.589] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 90) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:52.460] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 88) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:53.395] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 84) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))

In response to them telling you to leave, you decide to keep shoving them around in their own department, then take their things, so they fight back.

Spoiler:

[2019-08-19 06:36:54.058] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:54.362] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 81.3) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:54.965] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 85) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:55.283] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 79.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:55.862] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 79) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:56.292] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 71.8) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:56.965] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 79) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:57.797] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 73.4) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:58.276] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 67.5) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:58.604] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has punched Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 69.4) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:36:59.191] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 63.5) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:00.495] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 69.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:00.754] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 60.4) (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:01.137] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has slipped on the [floor] (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:03.228] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has kicked Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 50.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:03.811] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attempted to punch Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 69.2) (Chemistry (100, 105, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:06.898] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has kicked Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 48.5) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:07.667] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 42.8) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:07.985] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 64.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:08.461] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 40.9) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:08.898] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 59.2) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:09.401] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 39) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:10.265] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 54.2) (Chemistry (102, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:10.692] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 29.8) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:11.431] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: HARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 49.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:11.491] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 23.1) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:12.301] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has attacked Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with shard (INTENT: DISARM) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:12.400] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 21.2) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:13.065] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:14.588] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has attempted to punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 21.3) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:15.065] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.009] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 14) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.205] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (102, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:16.899] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: 6) (Chemistry (100, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:17.089] ATTACK: Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) has shoved Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 44.2) (Chemistry (101, 103, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:17.310] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has slipped on the [floor] (Chemistry (100, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:18.162] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has punched Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: -3.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))
[2019-08-19 06:37:18.163] ATTACK: Friendlegs/(Hugh Mann) has got a stun punch with their previous punch Deedubya/(Rin Nekomiya) (NEWHP: -3.8) (Chemistry (101, 104, 2))

The remainder of this conflict is the two of them killing you.

So let me summarize here: You came out of cryo, went into their department, they ask you to leave, you begin shoving them around and attempting to steal their things, then you decide to ahelp about it after you die from said engagement.

Let it be known that for the umpteenth time, this ban is not about you getting in a fight with them and if it was valid or not, this ban is about you getting into a fight then only ahelping trying to get them banned after you baited them into an engagement. Please tell me how you entering their department (for the second time this shift), shoving them around, trying to take their items, then getting killed for it is not you baiting them into an engagement.

Edit: I neglected to mention you didn't just shove them, you shoved them onto a glass table, which is something that is not non-lethal.

I was actually not aware that I shoved him into a glass table during the second engagement. For that, I'll openly and publicly apologize for misrepresenting the second engagement. I had zero intention of escalating to a lethal engagement with either chemist, despite the fact that I was well within my rights to do so. Even so, nothing is inconsistent with my statement that I only re-entered the department to regain my stolen goods, after attempting to (crudely) come to an IC solution. Either way, how does that invalidate my - once again - unanswered ahelp regarding the first altercation? I know you may find this difficult to believe, but the primary reason I sent the second ahelp was because of that reason. From my viewpoint, the fact that they had escalated to lethals during the second engagement was a full demonstration that they were not being dealt with. For the record, I'll even show you how the second ahelp ideally should have gone:

"got murdered again, still no response"(I think my second ahelp was something to this effect)
"Looking into the first one, second one was valid. Don't ahelp regarding a situation you escalated to lethals, that's ban-baity as shit"
"how did I escalate to lethals? I just wanted my shit back"
"You trespassed and tabled them through a glass table, that makes you valid"
"oh, shit, didn't mean to put them through a glass table, my bad, legit wasn't trying to ban bait"

Bam, situation cleared. Players are warned/punished for the first instance, and I don't pursue the matter further. Instead, I'm immediately threatened with "you trespassed twice, then ahelped when you got wrecked, do you know what that's called?" then immediately threatened with a ban for trying to defend myself. How is any part of that considered acceptable conduct, especially after I'd attempted to explain myself?

If there's an admission of fault, yet nothing is done about the fault causing the entire situation, then how is that any different? It's still a stubborn refusal to make amends due to actions caused by one's poor judgement. That's like saying "sorry I murdered that guy for no reason" then refusing to take him to cloning. The damage is still done, the note is still there and reflecting poorly on my character as a whole. If you admit fault, then work to rectify the damage you've done.

As an aside, I don't believe I've acted unprofessionally in the ban appeal or this very thread in any way whatsoever. I've attempted to logically and(with all the facts available to me) factually explain what happened, why it was bad, and my viewpoint regarding the matter. Have I been condescending? To a point. Are players expected to act as professionals when dealing with blatant admin abuse? No, but I still attempted to.

[Hulkamania]

As an aside, I don't believe I've acted unprofessionally in the ban appeal or this very thread in any way whatsoever. I've attempted to logically and(with all the facts available to me) factually explain what happened, why it was bad, and my viewpoint regarding the matter. Have I been condescending? To a point. Are players expected to act as professionals when dealing with blatant admin abuse? No, but I still attempted to.

he big difference here is that those children are far more understanding and far less prideful, and are able to admit to wrongdoing and correct their actions in the future.

this isn't the only time I've dealt with such banbot behavior from you

you were a poor choice to be holding the ability to dole out discipline to anybody, and I hope you lose it in the future.

bruh moment.

I'm done responding to this thread, I've provided ample evidence that you were clearly in the wrong and that everything the chemist team did to you on the second engagement was perfectly valid. "I didn't intend to" is an extraordinarily weak excuse and it doesn't matter, because ya did. You shoved them around after they asked you to leave their department after you entered it a second time, you put them through a glass table and took their satchel, then you got dunked for it. The fact that you yourself cannot " admit to wrongdoing and correct their actions in the future" makes me worry about your ability to learn from the incident in the future.

I'll be leaving this thread for the other head admins to rule on, as I am one of the people involved.

[deedubya]

I'm done responding to this thread, I've provided ample evidence that you were clearly in the wrong and that everything the chemist team did to you on the second engagement was perfectly valid. "I didn't intend to" is an extraordinarily weak excuse and it doesn't matter, because ya did. You shoved them around after they asked you to leave their department after you entered it a second time, you put them through a glass table and took their satchel, then you got dunked for it.

I already stated that I'm done arguing for that engagement, not that I was particularly strong on my argument for it to begin with. Turns out they followed valid escalation. There's nothing more to be said. What there is more to be said about is the fact that that was used as justification to exonerate them for the first engagement - which was still a very clear rule break of the RoE - and me being punished for following up on an unanswered ahelp regarding it.

The fact that you yourself cannot " admit to wrongdoing and correct their actions in the future" makes me worry about your ability to learn from the incident in the future.

For that, I'll openly and publicly apologize for misrepresenting the second engagement.

double bruh moment

[ATHATH]

So, just to be clear here: deedubya is arguing that the second case of escalation WAS indeed valid (on the chemists' end) (he learned this after learning that one of his shoves glass table'd a chemist, which is considered to be a lethal attack in a fight), but his ahelp was in reference to the FIRST escalation incident (the one that he got killed and cloned in), not the SECOND one, yes? And he is feeling upset that he was seemingly banned for "ban baiting" for following up on an ahelp about the FIRST escalation incident (which WAS an incidence of rule-breaking on the chemists' end), correct?

It seems to me like this was just a large misunderstanding: NecromancerAnne (reasonably) thought that deedubya's second ahelp was about the SECOND incident (in which he was the first one to escalate to "lethals") (since he made the second ahelp immediately after the second incident) and assumed that he had started a fight, escalated to lethals in it, and then whined to admins in ahelps about the fight after losing it (which could, yes, be interpreted as ban baiting... if that was actually what the ahelp was (intended to be) about). deedubya thought that his second ahelp was about the FIRST incident, which he didn't know (at the time of making his second ahelp) had already been dealt with (or was at least BEING dealt with) by an admin. Am I correct here?

On a side note, deedubya, try to refrain from calling admins children/unfit for duty in the future, as doing so generally tends to make them (justifiably) irritated/angry at you and doesn't really help your case much.

[Hulkamania]

The ban itself is about ban baiting behavior. This means that while the circumstances leading up to it may be important, what really matters is if something appears to be ban baiting or not.

NecromancerAnne checked the logs and had a conversation with deedubya which led them to believe that this was the case, considering the second instance of escalation happened within completely valid IC means but an ahelp was made afterwards, despite the fact that it was an IC issue. Typically if something plays out normally IC and an ahelp is made only in the instance of you dying, it's a clear case of ban baiting. His case was not made better because despite being told it was IC and being provided logs within this thread that shows he started the conflict, thus it being an IC issue, he is still calling for those individuals to be banned meaning I'm rather strongly believing that the intent was indeed ban baiting. Your assessment of the situation is for the most part accurate but people seem to be getting bogged down over if the conflict was valid or not (it was, on both parties ends) when the ban was about ban baiting.

As has, and will continue to be said, the first conflict was a bit over the line, so much so that NecromancerAnne took administrative action for it (talking to both parties and explaining proper escalation) they just did not inform deedubya of as much. However, we must treat these as two separate instances because in the second conflict everything was handled properly IC by both parties, deedubya instigated by entering their area, they asked him to leave, he shoved them around and antagonized them by stealing their satchel, they removed him from their department for trespassing and harassment. Nothing in this scenario is out of line for either party to do, but ahelping about it after they personally instigated does not make their actions okay.

They were not "exonerated" from the first engagement. NecromancerAnne determined that a fitting course of action would be to talk to the both of them about proper engagement and leave it at that, based on their own personal ruling. They are allowed to not issue a ban or a note if they do not think it's valid to do so, and the irony of calling them a ban bot when they provided leniency to two individuals is apparently lost on the situation.

[deedubya]

Almost on the money, ATHATH. At the time and up until this very topic, I was still under the impression that the second death was also made under questionable circumstances. However, you're correct in the fact that the primary reason I sent the second ahelp was because the first one went unanswered, not because I died and wanted revenge. The entire reason I even walked in to begin with was with the intent to suicide and leave("hey docs I need medical aid" [o2 tank explosion suicide] "ha ha funny man"), so why would I care that I got killed in a valid escalation? I only cared that the rules were blatantly broken to kill me, and that they had the nerve to steal critical belongings afterwards and refuse to return them. Once again, I did not receive the ahelp verb again until after I had been revived, so I couldn't follow it up before I had the opportunity to attempt an IC solution. I would have sent a second ahelp after I resolved the situation regardless, because that's what you're supposed to do in cases where you feel the rules of the server are being broken. If it's ban baiting to report people violating the rules and wanting violations of the rules to be met with some form of punishment, then say so right now and I'll stop contesting the note and revoke my complaint.

and the irony of calling them a ban bot when they provided leniency to two individuals is apparently lost on the situation.

The real irony in my mind is something I touched upon in the peanut thread: That two people clearly acting in bad faith were shown leniency, and the person trying to have something done about a clear violation was assumed to be acting in bad faith and shown none.

[Nervere]

There is not much in this thread that is complaint-worthy.
Disagreeing with the ruling is one thing, that's fine to complaint about. We'll be upholding NecromancerAnne's ruling, though, as their investigation and final decision has good merit to it.
As for the conduct of NecromancerAnne and Hulkamania, though, what exactly is being complained about it unclear. NecromancerAnne fully explained their ruling and Hulkamania upheld it. Standard practice.

There is one thing we disagree with NecromancerAnne on, though, and it's that notes/bans should not be modified because of an appeal.
Randolf is correct - this is not something that we ever do as it destroys the integrity of the appeals process.
However, as they said in this thread, the note was never actually edited.

Take a look:

Spoiler:

There'd be a button to view the edit log if the note ever was edited - it wasn't.
NecromancerAnne is reminded that notes/bans should not be altered as a consequence for making an appeal. Otherwise, there is nothing actionable to uphold in this appeal, so we'll be closing this.