/tg/Station 13

Round ID: 124290

Sever: Terry


It was a dynamic round with a wizard and I joined a little late as sec. I quickly figure out that we have a wizard and arm up. I manage to take it down and bring it to the brig to shuttle crush it because I don't want to risk another antag cloning it. I set the body where the shuttle will land when I notice it fly off in the direction of cargo maint. An admin was obviously using build mode to throw it, but I thought maybe someone was just messing with me. I grab the body and begin taking it back towards the shuttle to try again when I see the shuttle mysteriously block my path. At this point I have a good idea of who is fucking with me but I ask anyway and Lexia points to Strange's static.
If this was just an admin playing with me I wouldn't mind but Strange has shown before that they are willing to try to force their own play style onto others. If removing a muderboning wizard is too light rp for Strange then I don't know what they expect from players.

Logs taken from (src, statbus, scrubby)

To clarify this was a single throw by PAS, followed by seemingly moving the labor shuttle using AI interaction mode if Kang's detail is correct. HREF logs would help to prove the latter.

[2019-11-23 15:01:05.681] ADMIN: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) has entered build mode.
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:01:09.354] ADMIN: Build Mode: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) threw Gludaouf the Blue at �space (Space (89, 166, 2))
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:02:28.989] ADMIN: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) has activated Admin AI Interact

The intent does not seem clear, as nothing happened to the wizard's corpse following this from the perspective of possibly being cloned or healed otherwise. I will include the following messages that PAS said immediately prior which may help to indicate why this happened, though PAS can explain this more easily.

[2019-11-23 14:59:57.680] ADMIN: DSAY: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) "how did he not get time stoped?" (Central Primary Hallway (88, 124, 2))
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:00:03.569] ADMIN: DSAY: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) "oooh nul" (Central Primary Hallway (88, 141, 2))
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:00:26.801] ADMIN: DSAY: Peoplearestrange/(Nomi Dealen) "I feel like nullrod should ONLY work with the chaplin" (Brig (108, 166, 2))

Also relevant, the prayer and IC response. The subtle message you received is not logged publically, akin to HREF, so I cannot include that. Edit: There was/were point emotes which are not logged from imsxz.

[2019-11-23 15:03:20.205] PRAY: KangTut/(Fred Best): Hmm I wonder which admin doens't want me to get rid of the wizard
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:03:34.888] SAY: KangTut/(Fred Best) "Yeah I know it's the furfag" (Space (88, 166, 2))
<snip>
[2019-11-23 15:05:03.049] SAY: KangTut/(Fred Best) "Fur fag god was keeping me from getting rid of this corpse." (Brig (96, 169, 2))

There wasn't any subtle message. Lexia pointed at him. If he was mad because I killed the wiz too easily then tough shit. Don't use your admin powers to try to stop me from removing it.

Kangtut wrote:There wasn't any subtle message. Lexia pointed at him. If he was mad because I killed the wiz too easily then tough shit. Don't use your admin powers to try to stop me from removing it.

Ah, pointing is not currently logged. Apologies for the misinterpretation, I have edited my previous post accordingly.

I'm away for work rn. But as a quick reply, as an admin I reserve the right to also act as a game master. Honestly I felt your quick dispatch of the wizard using meta knowledge (which isn't against the rules but there are limits) and then immediate attempt to prevent any further interaction was anti fun. Honestly though my intention was to give a chance to someone else to do something to keep the round going. However when no one took the chance I let it go.

I haven't abused my powers in order to give myself or anyone else i know an advantage. I just simply did something that annoyed you. Not only is this not against the rules or what is expected of the admins, it also had no effect other than slightly inconveniencing you.

You also did some fairly blatant OOC in IC and if you had trouble with this you could have ahelped.

Also please don't call me he

Basically I didn't play how you wanted me to play so you thought to use your admin tools to try and railroad the round. That's a great mind set for someone who thinks of them self as a dungeon master. As for the round continuing - it's Terry it's on dynamic all the time, and one antag being dead isn't going to cause the round to be over. I also feel you let it go not because people weren't trying to recover the wizard (why would they? He was a timestop/fireball murderboner) but because you got called out.

As for giving anyone an advantage, yeah you kind of did, had anyone be able to recover the wizard's corpse before I did he could have been brought back in some way. Now let's talk about how I was affected. You trapped me in space. Had sec or the AI not been responsive for whatever reason you could have kept me from playing the game for who knows how long. Also, I'd argue that fucking with players for no reason in a way that can inconvenience them without any reason would be against admin conduct.

I think some OOC in IC is justified for multiple reasons. First the wizard summoned ghosts. This already ruins any immersion as ghosts constantly give away OOC information by hovering around antags and by leading players to things of interests. Secondly immersion went right out the window whenever you started blatantly using admin powers because the round wasn't going how you wanted it to. As for why I didn't ahelp - why would I? I knew who was doing it.

Despite Terry's player base it is not 24/7 dynamic and does not have a seperate ruleset or play style, it is shaped by the active players and admins only respective to the other servers.

I have litterally non idea how you think I gained a personal advantage here.
As for you being trapped there why would you think I would leave you there to die? That's your own assumption of a situation that never happened.

As per the rules:

Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase.

So yes, we are allowed to intervene and shape the round. I believe the quick relatively non satisfying way the wizard "round" ended need a second chance.

If your going to use immersion breaking as another leg of your complaint, do you not think that grabbing the chaplins null rod because of its game mechanism advantage and wordlessly beating someone to death and then dragging them to the shuttle to gib the body is far from any semblance of roleplay and immersion. Which you then followed up with more immersion breaking "I wonder what admin did that" in character, with others around.
I moved the body, whilst it was out of your, or anyone's view. I then moved a shuttle. This is no more immersion breaking than a pray reply.

So no, I don't believe I abused my powers, I believe I used my powers to try to keep the round moving. Sorry you disagree but that's all you have, a disagreement.

Also saying why would you ahelp for am explanation there and then rather than "knowing" and searching the logs later makes you sound, frankly, rather petty.

How often do you play Terry? Ask any Terry regular and they will tell you that it is 24/7 dynamic. I also never said it had a separate rule set or play style nor would my actions that round have gone against any of the servers' rules (by your own admission so what's the fucking point of this?)

I have litterally non idea how you think I gained a personal advantage here

How about you read what I wrote again because I said you gave someone else an advantage - the wizard.

The fact that you trapped me there for shitty reasons is bad enough but it's a very safe assumption that I could have been there for a while had no one been paying attention to comms. Many people get removed from the round due to lack of comm awareness. Also, considering you were the one who trapped me there because you didn't like how I played the game then why would you help me back into the station?

Now how is it in the best interest of the players to allow a mass murdering wizard to be given a second chance? I'm sure all the players he would have killed would be thrilled to be taken out of the round by someone that they had no chance against because everyone loves a good murderbone. And again, it was dynamic - the wizard was not the only antag so you trying to give him a second chance makes even less sense. The round could have gone on in any number of ways without your intervention and it did after you gave up. Also the throw was not out of my view and even if it was like you thought it would still have been obvious what happened since I am well aware of how admin tools work.

How is it petty to know the admin team well enough to be able to make a call like this? Out of all the admins on you are the only one who has displayed an inability to let the round play out normally because something you don't agree with happened.
As always you are unwilling to admit any sort of fault here so I'll call it a day and leave it to the headmins.

peoplearestrange wrote:Despite Terry's player base it is not 24/7 dynamic...

To help provide some context, out of the last 1590 rounds on Terry since September 1, 2019, 72 of the 1590 that are publicly logged have not been dynamic at round-start. I've based this on the presence of the GAME log message "Saved mode is 'dynamic'", implying that the mode is not secret dynamic or anything akin to this, it is explicitly announced dynamic loaded from the previous round.

In other words, approximately 95% of rounds have been defaulting to dynamic on Terry since September 1st of this year.

These are by no measure official statistics, but hopefully they provide some insight. Atlanta Ned could help moreso in this regard.

from the main rules:

2.Do not use information gained outside of in character means.
I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

how is it against the rules to know about the null rod's anti-magic mechanics?

bobbahbrown wrote: In other words, approximately 95% of rounds have been defaulting to dynamic on Terry since September 1st of this year.

Ok so I orginally asked for a headmin call on this as it had been, previously left on dynamic when it was being tested, I was told it wasn't to be special. However things have obviously changed since then.
This still isn't really that relevant to the argument of "admin abuse". Though yes, I was wrong on this thinking.

teepeepee wrote: how is it against the rules to know about the null rod's anti-magic mechanics?

I haven't said its against the rules. It was, I felt against the spirit of play. If it was against the rules then this would have been around a note or a ban appeal surely.

Kangtut wrote: The fact that you trapped me there for shitty reasons is bad enough but it's a very safe assumption that I could have been there for a while had no one been paying attention to comms. Many people get removed from the round due to lack of comm awareness. Also, considering you were the one who trapped me there because you didn't like how I played the game then why would you help me back into the station?

Again you're making an assumption that I would have left you there. I was in control of the situation, which is actually what is annoying you.

Kangtut wrote:Now how is it in the best interest of the players to allow a mass murdering wizard to be given a second chance? I'm sure all the players he would have killed would be thrilled to be taken out of the round by someone that they had no chance against because everyone loves a good murderbone. And again, it was dynamic - the wizard was not the only antag so you trying to give him a second chance makes even less sense. The round could have gone on in any number of ways without your intervention and it did after you gave up. Also the throw was not out of my view and even if it was like you thought it would still have been obvious what happened since I am well aware of how admin tools work.

Entirely your opinion and view of the game type, style and how the game "should" be played. I have a different opinion to you, thats all I have to say.

Kangtut wrote:How is it petty to know the admin team well enough to be able to make a call like this? Out of all the admins on you are the only one who has displayed an inability to let the round play out normally because something you don't agree with happened.
As always you are unwilling to admit any sort of fault here so I'll call it a day and leave it to the headmins.

I'm not sure how you "know me" as you put it, to my knowledge this is our first interaction? I'm sorry you have a sore opnion of the admin team as a whole, but it be nice if you treated me as an individual since essentially this whole admin complaint is specifically about me.
As for unwilling to admit fault I disagree. I have admitted fault previously where I was wrong and given I've only ever had one other admin complaint I like to think I've learned from any mistakes I've made.
However I still am convinced I have done nothing wrong here and have not abused my admin powers for anything.

In my mind all I have done was attempted to make a dull round more interesting. This is all I will say on the matter and I will leave the heads to make the final call. Thank you for your time.

I apologize for the delay but I would like to know that this was never ignored, and was brought up multiple times amongst the headmin team as a whole. First and foremost, we will not be upholding this complaint but there are some things that need to be said about it.

Admins always have the capability, and to a certain extent are encouraged, to act in the better interests of the round and to seek to improve it wherever possible. Peoplearestrange (Henceforth PAS) was acting in this dungeon master sort of capacity when they intervened, to do what they personally thought was in the better interests of the game as a whole to make it more interesting. Sometimes this process goes wrong, and that's to be expected.

The frustrations you feel as a player are completely valid and understandable, but there is nothing to suggest that you were specifically targeted for harassment, punishment, abuse, or otherwise any kind of intentional ill will towards you.

All that being said, there is always something to be said about not being too heavy handed in a non-extended or pre-planned event round. PAS seemed genuinely unaware of dynamic mode and its ramifications insofar as making the round more exciting, and that is a genuine mistake. But as far as whether keeping a wizard alive or in the round is not okay, as someone who has personally added more wizards after the first one died unceremoniously I can't say that I don't see that being within an admins thought process.

A lot of people dislike wizard for one reason or another, but that's all a matter of opinion. What is fact is that an antagonist drives the round forward and provides drama and excitement, PAS thought that they didn't provide enough and acted in that regard, and nothing about that is wrong.