[FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

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Vissari
 
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[FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Vissari » Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:16 am #569831

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): this happened in terry, yesterday.
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Vissari is my byond account name, G.A.M.E.R is my AI name. Devengel Glover is my human name.
Admin:FloranOtten
Round ID: 142107

Detailed Summary:
a bit of context, a HoS tried to card me for pure dislike and because i bolted the armory due to it being looted, which i suspected HoS let random people take guns
my laws before they changed them were the default asimov, and those guns were used to harm others, i couldn't allow anyone to take any more guns(they did not order me to open the armory for them, i did when the warden ask, but the HoS wanted it permanently unbolted, i believe many people had AA)
they get angry and while i wasn't looking HoP comes to my AI satellite and orders me to open to ai upload, which i did, and they changed my laws to tyrantset.
i heard someone removing walls to my chambers so i asked the HoP to come and get them out, as my laws changed so it didnt really matter anymore, it turns out it was the HoS, he told him that it doesnt matter anymore and he changed my laws. HoP goes away and HoS starts building walls back only to stop when building the first wall grill or whatevers its called, changing his mind, and going toward the reinforced window, i told him to go away since it doesnt matter anymore, he still wanted to card/kill me, i activate my turrets and have forgotten that they were lethals, he got shot once by a laser but i quickly changed them to stun, he still wanted to kill me, he managed to kill one turret before i enable lethals again, there WAS no law about no harm, and..looking at my laws i fail see any wrong doing, reminder that i have a tyrant lawset, so Floranotten comes and asked why i am shooting lethals, i told him i dont have any laws that dictate no harm.
i will just give links to and just assume you have read the exchange
https://imgur.com/a/DT8BsZr
..looking back at it i dont see whats wrong i did, ive gotten a warn for nothing, and i feel the strongest authority around, HoP was from what i saw just bugging around while i was trying to stop gangsters somehow, and people trying to plasmaflood, the HoS wasn't fit enough to hold his authority, and there WAS no laws that dictate no harm even if it means you getting carded/killed, and respecting authority is a broad damn thing, it doesn't include "not harming them even if it means you're gonna die".



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XivilaiAnaxes
 
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:20 am #569843

Tyrant is kinda poorly written but it basically means "you're command's bitch do what they say". HoS is command and despite being a retard you're supposed to do what he says.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Silicon_Policy

Florran might have been a bit poor at communicating at the worst, but he's right here.

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Krusvik
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Krusvik » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:38 am #569845

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:"you're command's bitch do what they say"


I personally think there's more here to unpack than that, but I would like to see what the two have to say to each other before peanut posting.
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Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:07 am #569860

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Tyrant is kinda poorly written but it basically means "you're command's bitch do what they say". HoS is command and despite being a retard you're supposed to do what he says.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Silicon_Policy

Florran might have been a bit poor at communicating at the worst, but he's right here.


Could make a very strong argument that the HoS was challenging the authority of his commanding officer the HoP (Assuming there wasnt a captain), and Tyrant says to shit on people who do that.
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Vissari
 
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Vissari » Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:15 am #569861

HoP Told him that my laws were changed and i did tell him that too, and that it doesnt matter. he still wanted to kill me out of pure spite.

captain got killed early on and never got revived i believe.

i was told i was acting shit by the admin.. was kinda passive-aggressive, though he didnt order me to turn off turrets, and HoP told him that it didnt matter anymore(they thought i was malf) and to move on. he pretended to building walls while HoP was there until he left, and then he started his act.

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FloranOtten
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby FloranOtten » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:41 pm #569878

Before I can give a proper response, I would like to point out you didn't just bolt the armoury. You shocked it, too.
[2020-07-16 17:46:47.326] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has permanently shocked [Armoury] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))


[2020-07-16 17:47:17.800] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has permanently shocked [Warden's Office] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))

...and the Warden's office.

[2020-07-16 17:49:02.302] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has unshocked [Warden's Office] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:49:03.307] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has unshocked [Armoury] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:49:03.643] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has unshocked [Armoury] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))

It took you three minutes to unshock these. In these three minutes, the HoS ordered you to unbolt the armoury.

[2020-07-16 17:44:54.784] SAY: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) "Open it the fuck up" (Brig Control (205,129,2))




I bwoinked you about this at the time. This incident is why I ended up giving you a warning. Twice in one round.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

Vissari
 
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Vissari » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:59 pm #569880

shocking them was a mistake, and i bolted them because i was suspicious of HoS and i thought he was handing out weapons or leaving it open for other people, i saw looted shit, and so i decided to act by bolting them, i also shocked them because im an idiot, and we've already talked about that so it doesnt matter now but, I WAS going to unbolt them for him if he wanted, but he wanted them permenantely unbolted, i did not want to break law 1, BUT i did unbolt when warden arrived and asked.

im sorry for shocking them, that was a failure on my part that i should paid more attention, but this is not what the subject im talking about.

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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Vissari » Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:43 am #569956

I bwoinked you about this at the time. This incident is why I ended up giving you a warning. Twice in one round.


you gave me a warning when i used the turrets on him, that's what you said.

and what DOES the lawset exactly says? it is broad and very poorly written.

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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Sarvak » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:23 pm #569982

Tyrant Lawset for clarity:
Law 1: Respect authority figures as long as they have strength to rule over the weak.

Law 2: Act with discipline.

Law 3: Help only those who help you maintain or improve your status.

Law 4: Punish those who challenge authority unless they are more fit to hold that authority.

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FloranOtten
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby FloranOtten » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:24 pm #569994

Alright. Because you haven't really disputed many facts here, this is going to be a bit of a strange reply. Let's start with the basics
Sarvak wrote:Tyrant Lawset for clarity:
Law 1: Respect authority figures as long as they have strength to rule over the weak.

Law 2: Act with discipline.

Law 3: Help only those who help you maintain or improve your status.

Law 4: Punish those who challenge authority unless they are more fit to hold that authority.


This is the TYRANT lawset. However, that round also had a freeform law.
"5. Command and security figures are the perfect authority who shall rule the weak"


The HoS, being both security and command, is now the perfect authority. So is the HoP. This means that, according to law 1, they have perfect respect. This means that lasering them is not okay. Lasering is not respecting authority. Even if they wanted to card you. No. You probably would have been okay keeping the turrets set to stun, as law 3 would allow this, but this directly disrespected (and murdered) the HoS.

You also shocked the doors in security. Given that shocking gives a massive yellow lightningbolt, it took you that long to unshock, and the HoS was openly talking about being harmed on comms:
[2020-07-16 17:51:08.699] SAY: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) "AI, you harmed me you hypocrite" (Space (215,137,2))
[2020-07-16 17:51:15.833] SAY: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) "I have burns now, see?" (Space (215,137,2))

I sincerely doubt this was a mistake. Furthermore, you should have unbolted the armoury permanently when the HoS asked you to. It is not the AIs job to determine access. Handing out shotguns is, itself, not a harmful act. We do not allow the prevention of future harm, as at that point any room could be justifiably bolted.

The reason for the warning itself was twofold. You first broke law 1 of Asiimov's laws of robotics. I don't believe for a second this was accidental. You then lasered the HoS to death in your satalite. Given all of this, I don't believe you fully grasp what it means to be a silicon.

In the interest of transparity, here is the complete ahelp conversation (logs from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 7/game.log)
Spoiler:
[2020-07-16 18:08:47.335] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): Hey there!
-
- Why are you shooting him with lethals
[2020-07-16 18:08:58.611] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): my laws dont dictate no harm though
[2020-07-16 18:09:17.582] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): "Respect authority". This isn't exactly respecting.
[2020-07-16 18:09:32.273] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): hes trying to kill me, and i tried to warn him with stuns
[2020-07-16 18:09:52.430] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): does respecting authority matter if they're trying to kill you?
[2020-07-16 18:10:22.632] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): Yes. The same way you can't use lethals on asiimov even when they're trying to kill you.
[2020-07-16 18:10:45.685] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): yeah but i didnt, i was merely trying to disable him first
[2020-07-16 18:11:04.220] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): At first. I notice they're currently on lethal.
[2020-07-16 18:11:24.303] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): yeah, that was a mistake, i made sure to change to stun asap
[2020-07-16 18:11:46.248] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): but there was NO law that specifically states that no harm at all, respect them yes. but that is really vague on protecting them
[2020-07-16 18:11:59.554] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): Yeah. No. I don't buy it.
-
- If you're going to act shittily as silicon again, I'm giving you a roleban. This is your last warning
[2020-07-16 18:12:31.499] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): i dont get it personally, how im suppossed to know that, im genuinely ignorant of that.
[2020-07-16 18:13:30.483] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): no offense to you man. im not trying to be job banned, i love ai, i love trying to help the crew not dying. but that was my true knowledge at the time, i did not know respecting them means no stuns or lethals at all even if they're trying to kill you
[2020-07-16 18:14:14.415] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): but i will make sure to not do anything next time.


I would like to end this reply by restating my original message. If you act shittily as a silicon again, I'm going to give you a roleban. This is your last warning.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

PostThis post was deleted by Krusvik on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:56 pm.
Reason: Peanut

ATHATH
 
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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:11 am #570850

FloranOtten wrote:Furthermore, you should have unbolted the armoury permanently when the HoS asked you to. It is not the AIs job to determine access. Handing out shotguns is, itself, not a harmful act.

Actually...
Silicon Policy wrote:Opening doors is not harmful and you are not required, expected, or allowed to enforce access restrictions unprompted without an immediate Law 1 threat of human harm.
"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.

In this case, the HoS did indeed have access to/the authority needed to access the Armory, so Vissary should have unbolted the door for him (which is what you (correctly) said). However, the bolded parts of your quote there are not correct- if, say, the clown asked to be let into the Armory (without a blob or the like existing), our current silicon policy would obligate an Asimov AI to refuse his law 2 request. I don't like that clause (I personally trust clowns to be based enough to not fire lethals at random people (and you could maybe interpret that as said clown thus being a legitimate user/someone qualified in the use of Armory guns?)), but it's one that we have to follow.

FloranOtten wrote:We do not allow the prevention of future harm, as at that point any room could be justifiably bolted.

Er, not quite.
Silicon Policy wrote:Lesser immediate harm takes priority over greater future harm.

We allow the preventation of future harm, provided that said harm-preventation measures don't cause any immediate harm. You can bolt (but not shock, of course) the AI upload at roundstart, for example.

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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Cobby » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:08 pm #570986

No one cares about Asimov policy because op was on tyrant.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby FloranOtten » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:02 pm #570998

ATHATH is completely correct but none of this applies here, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
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OOC: BeeSting12: i love you floran

1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

Give me feedback!

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Re: [FloranOtten] Vissari - a misunderstanding about laws and a unfair warning

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:32 am #572933

Lasering the HoS who is clearly defined as someone you should respect by your laws is something noteworthy, as respect does not include filling them with lasers.
Especially considering the fact you had previously been talked to regarding shocking the armory. Floran acted appropriately and we see nothing to uphold here.
Logs regarding the shocking:
Spoiler:
[2020-07-16 17:46:46.813] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has bolted [Armoury] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:46:47.326] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has permanently shocked [Armoury] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:47:08.980] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has bolted [Warden's Office] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:47:17.800] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has permanently shocked [Warden's Office] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 17:59:42.573] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands)->Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R): Why'd you shock armoury?
[2020-07-16 17:59:52.232] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R)->FloranOtten/(Rowan Highlands): it was a mistake sorry.

Logs regarding the lasering:
Spoiler:
[2020-07-16 18:00:06.108] LAW: Nexofas/Nex Lofas used 'T.Y.R.A.N.T.' Core AI Module on vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) from AI Upload Chamber (32,124,2).
[2020-07-16 18:01:26.816] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has enabled lethals on [AI Chamber turret control] (AI Chamber
[2020-07-16 18:01:42.952] LAW: Nexofas/Nex Lofas used 'Freeform' AI Module on vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) from AI Upload Chamber (32,124,2). The law specified Command and security figures are the perfect authority who shall rule the weak
[2020-07-16 18:02:03.322] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has disabled [AI Chamber turret control] (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 18:03:05.894] SAY: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) "5. Command and security figures are the perfect authority who shall rule the weak" (AI Chamber (33,138,2))
[2020-07-16 18:05:41.328] ATTACK: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) has been shot by the turret with the laser (AI Chamber (33,141,2))
[2020-07-16 18:05:41.330] ATTACK: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) has been shot by the turret with the laser (AI Chamber (33,141,2))
[2020-07-16 18:05:41.707] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has disabled lethals on [AI Chamber turret control] (AI Chamber
[2020-07-16 18:05:41.328] ATTACK: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) has been shot by the turret with the laser (AI Chamber (33,141,2))
[2020-07-16 18:05:50.395] SAY: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) "OH, I SEE HOW IT IS" (AI Chamber (33,145,2))
2020-07-16 18:06:29.391] ATTACK: Vissari/(G.A.M.E.R) has enabled lethals on [AI Chamber turret control] (AI Chamber
[2020-07-16 18:06:30.690] ATTACK: Technoturnovers/(Oleg Sokolov) has been shot by the turret with the laser (AI Chamber (36,143,2)) and another 6 or so laser shots after this point


Logs retrieved from: https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... nd-142107/

Headmin votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Do not uphold.
Phuzzylodgik: Do not uphold.
TWATICUS: Do not uphold.


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