[Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

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Stickymayhem
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[Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:51 pm #571428

CLICKBAIT TITLE

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Terry, ~1:30pm GMT
Byond account and character name OR Discord name:stickymayhem/Jack Steiner
Admin: Doctor Brutality
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 143521
Detailed summary:
After tracking down a cult and successfully catching multiple cultists, I find another rune in the crusher room. Jack Breeg had complained I was patrolling solo, and after finding me alone there having asked for back up for a potential cultist, he stuns me while I'm on the conveyer, bumps into me, I go through the crusher and die, the round is over. It's an accident right?

Now, as an isolated incident this is fine, but the problem is Jack Breeg is always doing shit like this, and so do many people on Terry. Randomly stunning people because it's technically non-lethal is fine occasionally, but there's an analogy I used in the ahelp. If you trip people randomly 100 times, and only one of them breaks their neck, you are morally culpable for that because you're being a cunt. Surely if you're going to engage in shitty, risky behaviour and not get punished for it, you should get punished when it results in an actual round removal? Not to mention a round removal where an officer kills the Captain during an active cult round. All of my gear was destroyed, and I was left effectively in medbay naked. Regardless of the revival my round was pretty much completely over.

I think Doctor Brutality should have punished them, I think they should have at least talked to them, but they didn't see the poin and didn't bother, they found it funny.

I'm disappointed that this is a common attitude around Terry-regular admins, alongside the "I don't want to ban people because they'll appeal and that's too much drama" issue that's probably related to this.

TL;DR If you do dumb risky shit all the time without getting punished, you should be punished when it actually permanently removes people from the round.

Ahelp Logs:
Spoiler:
12:30:14: Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): So Jack Breeg just stunned me on the conveyer belt and got me killed in the recycler. I'm captain he's an officer who was mad that I was patrolling alone.
12:30:39: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): No one ever emags recycler if I ask him about it he's just gonna say it was a mistake.
12:31:06: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): also he's immediately getting you revived and this was funny
12:31:52: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): But if he wasn't always a dick who stun batoned people randomly it wouldn't have happened. This is exactly the kind of reason we don't let people fuck around constantly, because occasionally it gets someone killed. It's not an accident if you trip people 100 times and 1(?|F) in 100 times they break their neck
12:35:46: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): So is that it then
12:36:07: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): captain solo patrolling in maint? fairly unsurprising that you get batoned for it. I really don't get what you want me to do about it. This was pretty unforseeable on his part & I'm not gonna ban someone for a mistake like that which is remedied in all of a couple of minutes. Clearly didn't intend for you to die and with a cult around it's understandable that sec wouldn't want a guy with AA running around in maint solo. IC you're his superior obviously so solve this IC if you wish but I ain't gonna take admin action.
12:37:45: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): Alright I'm going to make a complaint because frankly this is the kind of shit that needs to be curbed on Terry and I'd rather there be a discussion about it.
12:38:40: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): Predictable go ahead but I can guarantee by the end of the day you'll be laughing at the fact you got accidentally got crushed and died for 5 minutes & if you aren't thats pretty sad. Have a good day.
12:39:31: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): I don't care about whether it's funny I care about the 20 people on Terry that just stun people constantly
12:39:48: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): Also I appear to be bugged to shit
12:40:07: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): howso what is wrong?
12:40:29: Reply PM from-Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner): Like none of my equipment seems to exist but I'm still wearing it and can't remove it
12:40:48: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): Yeah recycler is meant to qdelete all your items but I guess it got bugged recently
12:41:09: PM From Doctor Brutality/(Edgar Pope): if you ghost(?|F) I'll spawn you in naked if you wish.


Relevant gamelogs (Someone can scrubby post later if they want)
Spoiler:
You throw Assistant action figure.
Jack Breeg stuns you with the stun baton!
Jack Steiner stammers, "AR-R-RRR-R-RR-R-R-RR-RR-RRR-RR-RR-RGH-H-H-H!!!"
Jack Steiner has died at Waste Disposal.
[Security] Jack Breeg says, "I JUST KILLED THE CAPTAIN"
(F) Jack Breeg whispers, "I JUST KILLED THE CAPTAIN"
(F) [Security] Jack Breeg says, "OSMEONE EMAGED THE RECYCLER"(F)
(F) Jack Breeg whispers, "YEAH"
(F) [Security] Jack Breeg says, "I PUSHED HIM ONCE"
(F) [Security] Jack Breeg says, "AND HE DIED"
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pugie
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby pugie » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:12 pm #571435

I think this complaint is very daft & this would be better suited for policy discussion about whether security can attack their superiors because they disagree with them. Personally I think Jack was totally fine to stun baton you once considering a Captain patrolling maint on their own during a cult shift is very very dangerous & irresponsible, Captain isn't even a member of Security.

I think we can both agree that the emagged recycler was not expected & an accident. He didn't physically throw you in either, or intend to as well considering he immediately took you to medbay for revival. He batoned you once & then either you got pushed in or the confusion from the stun baton hit led to you running into the crusher accidentally. This just screams accident & I'm not gonna ban or note someone for such an obvious accident, I don't know what pocket you pulled "I don't want to ban people because they'll appeal and that's too much drama" from but that's a shit thing to say, I'd like some examples because I don't shy away from answering ban appeals & ban people where it's necessary - I don't think it was necessary in this case.

Why I don't think admin intervention is necessary here? Other than it being a mistake on Jack's part, it wasn't a random stun either. You seem to assert that he makes a habit of randomly stunning people. Not only is this something that I've never seen ahelped about him before, it also doesn't fit into the timeline of what happened - you were stunbatoned once for being a maintenance captain that isn't random that's a consequence of you being daft and being mildly bullied for it.
If I did ban or note him for it, what would the note look like? Like "Warned for accident - batoned captain because they were solo patrolling in maint during a cult shift which lead to Captain running into a recycler be more careful in the future"? That is deranged, dare I say a terrible note, I'd go so far to say that it is banbot behaviour akin to unlovedrock's trash "crit a greytiding hulk who succumbed" note.

If I believed Jack Breeg had a habitual shitler attitude as security I'd intervene but his note history says otherwise. In other a year of playing regularly he has accumulated 8 notes, only 1 note for assisting in the execution of 2 bridge trespassers (one of which stole spare), & 1 ban from over a year ago that totalled to a 2 hour length for a banbait related note.

I don't believe this complaint has any merit at all, it's an unfortunate accident that was caused by a traitor emagging a recycler prior which led to you running into a recycler, because you were being very reckless as the most important job on the station.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:22 pm #571438

I think this complaint is very daft & this would be better suited for policy discussion about whether security can attack their superiors because they disagree with them. Personally I think Jack was totally fine to stun baton you once considering a Captain patrolling maint on their own during a cult shift is very very dangerous & irresponsible, Captain isn't even a member of Security.


Considering through organising with security we'd already caught and killed multiple cultists, my "daft" behaviour was effective in stopping the cult. I think that's a dumb metric to judge by, but even if you did want to use that bad metric, it'd still be unjustified. It's bizarre that your argument comes down to "You were acting in a risky way, therefore the stun was justified" when the only risk to me the entire round was being literally killed by the officer criticizing me for being risky.

I think we can both agree that the emagged recycler was not expected & an accident. He didn't physically throw you in either, or intend to as well considering he immediately took you to medbay for revival. He batoned you once & then either you got pushed in or the confusion from the stun baton hit led to you running into the crusher accidentally. This just screams accident & I'm not gonna ban or note someone for such an obvious accident, I don't know what pocket you pulled "I don't want to ban people because they'll appeal and that's too much drama" from but that's a shit thing to say, I'd like some examples because I don't shy away from answering ban appeals & ban people where it's necessary - I don't think it was necessary in this case.


I never disagreed it was an accident, that's not the point of the appeal. Again, if you do something shit out of habit and it only occasionally results in actual harm, it's still a shitty thing to do and you can't just go "oops an accident!" when you're putting people at risk for no reason. I didn't personally accuse you of that, I'm saying there are two things contributing to crap behaviour on Terry and that is one of them.

Why I don't think admin intervention is necessary here? Other than it being a mistake on Jack's part, it wasn't a random stun either. You seem to assert that he makes a habit of randomly stunning people. Not only is this something that I've never seen ahelped about him before, it also doesn't fit into the timeline of what happened - you were stunbatoned once for being a maintenance captain that isn't random that's a consequence of you being daft and being mildly bullied for it.


Again, extremely dumb for you to justify the stun given that the only danger I was in for the entire round was from Jack himself.

If I did ban or note him for it, what would the note look like? Like "Warned for accident - batoned captain because they were solo patrolling in maint during a cult shift which lead to Captain running into a recycler be more careful in the future"? That is deranged, dare I say a terrible note, I'd go so far to say that it is banbot behaviour akin to unlovedrock's trash "crit a greytiding hulk who succumbed" note.


It's not just about the recycler. The two of us were alone in maint with a potential cultist and he stunned me next to an unrestrained, potential cultist, over a disagreement about whether I should be looking for cult bases. What if that was actually a cultist, who stunned Jack and then killed us both? It was a terribly dumb situation to stun one of the two proven non-cultists in. The note shouild be something like "Warned to be more cautious when stunning people without reason - batoned the captain due to a disagreement which resulted in them dying in an emagged crusher"

How is that a bad note? You've asked them to be more careful, and they should be. By your refusing to talk to them, they've learned nothing, other than that they can get away with being shitty because even if it goes wrong and the person dies welp it was an accident lmao can't be helped.

That is deranged, dare I say a terrible note, I'd go so far to say that it is banbot behaviour akin to unlovedrock's trash "crit a greytiding hulk who succumbed" note.


Invoking a totally irrelevant complaint about someone attacking a threatening greytider in a situation where an officer killed a captain in a completely different way and circumstance makes no sense.

If I believed Jack Breeg had a habitual shitler attitude as security I'd intervene but his note history says otherwise. In other a year of playing regularly he has accumulated 8 notes, only 1 note for assisting in the execution of 2 bridge trespassers (one of which stole spare), & 1 ban from over a year ago that totalled to a 2 hour length for a banbait related note.


If people are toeing the line and then admins go "well they have no notes so I'm not going to note them" how many notes are they gonna have showing this history? It's exactly why this warrants a note. A note may be considered a punishment but most importantly it's a log of times they've been talked to by admins. Which you didn't bother to do.

I don't believe this complaint has any merit at all, it's an unfortunate accident that was caused by a traitor emagging a recycler prior which led to you running into a recycler, because you were being very reckless as the most important job on the station.


Again, calling my successful cultstomping reckless in comparison to an officer that stunned me as a joke and got me instantly and permanently removed from the round is nonsense. I wasn't reckless in the slightest, and it doesn't justify stunning or killing me.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:40 pm #571443

Let me add a more relevant analogy

How many times does an assistant interfere with an arrest without any idea of the context?

Do we punish the assistant every time they do this? No, generally this isn't something we're banning for on it's own.

But what if that person they saved turns out to be a dangerous antag that they just let loose again.

Do we ban for that? I think we should, and I think it's similar to this situation. Every time you do something pointless and disruptive, like stunning a Captain in a dangerous situation, or interfering with an arrest for no reason, you roll the dice and if you turned out to be wrong, you should be punished. We punish on consequences. This is why you get banned for how many people a loose singulo killed despite it being out of your control once released. It's a risk you take. But when there's no risk to the person responsible, why would they ever be careful?
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PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:27 am.
Reason: Off topic

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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Naloac » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:35 am #571671

Stickymayhem wrote:I'm disappointed that this is a common attitude around Terry-regular admins, alongside the "I don't want to ban people because they'll appeal and that's too much drama" issue that's probably related to this.


This point is completely and utterly baseless.

Doctor Brutality himself has roughly 25 appeals since hes become an admin. In which the same time you've had around 2. I personally have had (roughly) 17, skoglol has had 12, and floranotten has had 15.

You in total have had (roughly) 54. Which seems like alot but in comparison to your years as an admin compared to the people ive mentioned.

For reference for when each of these people became jannies.

Doctorbrutality Feb 01, 2020
Me/Naloac Sep 17, 2019
Skoglol Feb 24, 2020
Floranotten Nov 03, 2019
StickyMayhem 24, 2014

Nervermind the later part of that post where you say that terry admins avoid drama, another extremely untrue statement as Doctor Brutality banned one of the most popular bagil players for his poor behavior, spawning memes about *freeing* said player. Although someone who isnt normally active wouldnt know that.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:15 am #571684

Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:I'm disappointed that this is a common attitude around Terry-regular admins, alongside the "I don't want to ban people because they'll appeal and that's too much drama" issue that's probably related to this.


This point is completely and utterly baseless.

Doctor Brutality himself has roughly 25 appeals since hes become an admin. In which the same time you've had around 2. I personally have had (roughly) 17, skoglol has had 12, and floranotten has had 15.

You in total have had (roughly) 54. Which seems like alot but in comparison to your years as an admin compared to the people ive mentioned.

For reference for when each of these people became jannies.

Doctorbrutality Feb 01, 2020
Me/Naloac Sep 17, 2019
Skoglol Feb 24, 2020
Floranotten Nov 03, 2019
StickyMayhem 24, 2014

Nervermind the later part of that post where you say that terry admins avoid drama, another extremely untrue statement as Doctor Brutality banned one of the most popular bagil players for his poor behavior, spawning memes about *freeing* said player. Although someone who isnt normally active wouldnt know that.


Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Naloac » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:37 am #571688

Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:24 pm #571691

Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....


How is that a sweeping statement? I'm not going to call specific people out by quoting them if you want to assume I'm lying that's your deal
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Naloac » Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:31 pm #571692

Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....


How is that a sweeping statement? I'm not going to call specific people out by quoting them if you want to assume I'm lying that's your deal


if your going to make such a sweeping statement such as admins wont ban because they dont wanna deal with the appeal you probably should be naming them.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:19 pm #571695

Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....


How is that a sweeping statement? I'm not going to call specific people out by quoting them if you want to assume I'm lying that's your deal


if your going to make such a sweeping statement such as admins wont ban because they dont wanna deal with the appeal you probably should be naming them.


I'm not making that statement anymore, you corrected it.

Like what

Did-did you read what I wrote?
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Naloac » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:05 pm #571699

Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....


How is that a sweeping statement? I'm not going to call specific people out by quoting them if you want to assume I'm lying that's your deal


if your going to make such a sweeping statement such as admins wont ban because they dont wanna deal with the appeal you probably should be naming them.


I'm not making that statement anymore, you corrected it.

Like what

Did-did you read what I wrote?


No you didnt retract the statement. You changed it to become *admins who said it to me* its the same statement. Its just no longer *all terry admins* These few that you dont want to name. I didnt listen every single admin. Surely the ones your thinking of arent on that list?
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:07 pm #571700

Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:
Naloac wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.

Again a sweeping statement with no proof....


How is that a sweeping statement? I'm not going to call specific people out by quoting them if you want to assume I'm lying that's your deal


if your going to make such a sweeping statement such as admins wont ban because they dont wanna deal with the appeal you probably should be naming them.


I'm not making that statement anymore, you corrected it.

Like what

Did-did you read what I wrote?


No you didnt retract the statement. You changed it to become *admins who said it to me* its the same statement. Its just no longer *all terry admins* These few that you dont want to name. I didnt listen every single admin. Surely the ones your thinking of arent on that list?


Stickymayhem wrote:Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong. I got the impression from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins. If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong, but that's where I got the impression.


I am literally incapable of being clearer about retracting that statement. I even wrote it less obviously the first time, then edited to make it indisputably clear that I was conceding the point, and you still somehow didn't get it.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby oranges » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:50 pm #572103

Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong.

Apologise
I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins.

double down
If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong,

apologies again
but that's where I got the impression.

double down

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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:07 pm #572110

oranges wrote:
Thanks for numbers, I'm wrong.

Apologise
I got the impressiomn from actually seeing those words directly out of the mouths of some terry regular admins.

double down
If the numbers don't back it up I'm clearly wrong,

apologies again
but that's where I got the impression.

double down


No. Apologise, "This is why I was misinformed". Apologise, "This is why I was misinformed".
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby Cobby » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:41 am #572129

He’s no longer an admin so this can prob be closed now.
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PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:11 am.
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Re: [Doctor Brutality] Security Officer Killing Captain is Fine

Postby capn_monkeypaw » Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:04 pm #572953

Closing this complaint as Doctor Brutality has retired from being an admin.


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