[Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

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Foxicide
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 10:31 am
Byond Username: Foxicide

[Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Foxicide » #578704

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Manuel.
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Foxicide
Admin: Owegno
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: I cannot check.
Detailed summary: I was noted severely for something that was not against the rules or an admin ruling, even though I was compliant.

I was noted the other day. The note is copy pasted, word for word:
"Warned not to use marcos to gain an ingame advantage after they used a marco to rapidly throw cards." (Also note this was marked as a ban or serious offense, due to the red exclamation marks on the note)
Yes, this is word for word, including whatever a "Marcos" is. I believe they are referring to my usage of 'Macros'.

Yes, I used macros to quickly throw items. I can go more in depth privately, so other players do not copy this technique.

Now, why I am making this is because, I was never informed this was against the rules, and when I asked for an admin policy, a rules page, or, literally anything else that says I cannot do this, I was failed to be shown such a link or image. After the last message, I told Owegno I would stop simply because I respect what they say, but regardless, they noted me anyway. I believe not only was this wrong because I was not given a real reason why I can't do this, I was noted with a serious note even though I was completely compliant and the admins knew I was doing this for a while.

Vekter even bwoinked me before because it spammed logs, but never told me it was against the rules.

I respect Owegno, but they are completely in the wrong in both the fact that they failed to show me why I cannot do what I did, only that it was "cheating". This happens a lot. I am tired of the admins not giving me reasons for what I did wrong, and also ignoring intentions. That is for another discussion, but I believe that manuel is in the bad state it is because nothing is done about players who continually do things with malicious intention.
Last edited by Foxicide on Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MortoSasye
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by MortoSasye » #578705

Please follow the correct template, as shown here https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=166
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Vekter
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Vekter » #578715

My statement should be disregarded here - this was before I was informed that macros were considered verboten.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
Omega_DarkPotato wrote:This sucks, dude.
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[17:44] <Aranclanos> fuck you
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Owegno
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Owegno » #578719

I got headmin clarification on the issue and I had thought I told you the result, maybe I forgot since it did take 50 minutes for me to get a response from a headmin, my apologies if I did indeed forget. Regardless I was told that yes, using macros to gain an advantage like that is not allowed. Not cheating was supposed to be a common sense rule so it was never written down. I gave you a high priority note because cheating is a major issue.

The person on the receiving end of your throw macro certainly didn't find it fair or enjoyable (since they ahelped). Rapidly throwing floor tiles or syndicate cards using macros creates a weapon that is more powerful than most on station ranged weapons. Them being that powerful is not an intended feature as it is only possible to get them to be that strong through the use of third party tools. They may be fun for you to use but they are certainly not fun for the player on the receiving end.
Foxicide
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Byond Username: Foxicide

Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Foxicide » #578721

I do not see how I formatted my complaint incorrectly. Maybe I am just blind. It only showed the rules and how to format the title.
Vekter wrote:My statement should be disregarded here - this was before I was informed that macros were considered verboten.
Understandable.
Owegno wrote:I got headmin clarification on the issue and I had thought I told you the result, maybe I forgot since it did take 50 minutes for me to get a response from a headmin, my apologies if I did indeed forget. Regardless I was told that yes, using macros to gain an advantage like that is not allowed. Not cheating was supposed to be a common sense rule so it was never written down. I gave you a high priority note because cheating is a major issue.

The person on the receiving end of your throw macro certainly didn't find it fair or enjoyable (since they ahelped). Rapidly throwing floor tiles or syndicate cards using macros creates a weapon that is more powerful than most on station ranged weapons. Them being that powerful is not an intended feature as it is only possible to get them to be that strong through the use of third party tools. They may be fun for you to use but they are certainly not fun for the player on the receiving end.
Macros make the game easier, they also make doing certain things easier. If you think this is "cheating", you, frankly, should add this to an admin ruling, edit the rules, or get coders to make this use impossible in game. Punishing me is not fair. And no, you never did reply to me about the head admin's decision. Regardless, I only used this method occasionally because I knew it was cheap, and I said I would stop anyway, so again, why am I getting noted as if I would do it again? At the very least, you can add that I was understanding to your decision, even if I believe you are wrong. Something such as "Was informed using macros to quickly throw cards for an in game advantage is banned, but was very understanding and said they will not do it again."
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MortoSasye
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by MortoSasye » #578723

Foxicide wrote:I do not see how I formatted my complaint incorrectly. Maybe I am just blind. It only showed the rules and how to format the title.
When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord):
Byond account and character name OR Discord name:
Admin:
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE:
Detailed summary:
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Foxicide
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Byond Username: Foxicide

Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Foxicide » #578725

Fixed on OP.
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Owegno
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Owegno » #578730

I cannot edit policy or the rules myself, if the headmins wish to enshrine not cheating into the rules that is their decision.

In regards to punishing you: I gave you a note. I know a lot of players feel they are a punishment but they are necessary to keep track of what players have been warned not to do. I only refrain from giving notes for warnings if the warning was for something quite minor. Cheating is a very serious offense in my eyes, and the reason it was a note and not something more for what is a serious offense to me is because it isn't explicitly written in the rules that you cannot use a throwing macro and at the time you seemed to be unaware of how unfair it was. You were noted because you did use macros to win in a fight and were warned not to do that again. I do trust you not do to it again, but I try and be as neutral and objective as possible when I admin which means I won't show favoritism and not give you a note just because I trusted you more than someone I didn't know.

Here are the ahelp logs (big oof with my initial typo that I only just noticed)
Spoiler:
[2020-10-02 02:50:13.399] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): Are you using a marco to throw cards?
[2020-10-02 02:50:23.392] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Foxicide/(Skyjira)->Owegno/(Alfred Keplin): marco?
[2020-10-02 02:50:39.838] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): Yes. You threw a bunch of cards in less than a second.
[2020-10-02 02:50:53.965] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Foxicide/(Skyjira)->Owegno/(Alfred Keplin): oh a macro? yes I am.
[2020-10-02 02:51:09.993] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): Do not use one in the future. Doing that is considered cheating.
[2020-10-02 02:52:54.280] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Foxicide/(Skyjira)->Owegno/(Alfred Keplin): Show me a policy, rules page, or admin ruling
[2020-10-02 03:02:07.885] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): I am waiting for a headmin to confirm but "Don't cheat" has always been a common sense rule it seems.
[2020-10-02 03:02:25.404] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): Never fully written down anywhere, but enforced and generally followed.
[2020-10-02 03:02:31.472] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Foxicide/(Skyjira)->Owegno/(Alfred Keplin): I've never had an admin get angry at me about this, except vekter once for spamming the logs
[2020-10-02 03:07:22.538] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Owegno/(Alfred Keplin)->Foxicide/(Skyjira): I know for a fact we disabled macros a few years ago shortly after they first became available in byond. I feel the fact we disabled them indicate we don't want people using them.
[2020-10-02 03:08:58.722] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Foxicide/(Skyjira)->Owegno/(Alfred Keplin): Well, fine. I will stop only because I respect you. I would like you to get a policy or rule change in the way, though, because I am noted by admins for doing stuff that isnt even explicitely against the rules too much.
To be blunt, this felt to me more like you were grudgingly accepting my ruling than being understanding of it which is why I never included that part in the initial note. I have edited the note to be as accurate as possible. It is now: "Warned not to use macros to gain an in-game advantage after they used a throwing macro to rapidly throw syndicate cards at someone they were fighting. Has agreed that they won't do it again."
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skoglol
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by skoglol » #578762

If you are contesting the existence or contents of the note, you need to make a note appeal. If you are contesting whether or not this should be against the rules, make a policy thread.

As for macro use that makes you able to do something a non macro player could not (within reason), its functionally equvialent to exploiting and bug abusing. Those are also not explicitly stated as against the rules on our rules page, but it should be obvious it is. If you want precedent, the last person I saw throw macroing was permabanned. You got off easy.
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XivilaiAnaxes
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #578929

It should be pointed out the purpose of the note is so if another admin sees you using another macro they can look at your notes and go "ohhh he's done it before".

The note isnt there because "admin hates you and wants you to suffer". The note is there in case someone else sees you do it so you can't feign "oh I didn't know :)"
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Re: [Owegno] vs [Foxicide] - Macro "Abuse"

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #579564

Notes may be applied as future reference for an administrator, so in case a similar situation comes up again you cannot claim ignorance.

Use of macros has been addressed in this policy thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=27747 .

We take no issue with Owegno's conduct here and are not upholding this complaint.

Headmin votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Do not uphold.
Domitius: Do not uphold.
Naloac: Do not uphold.
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