[StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

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Bip
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:40 am
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[StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580850

When and where this incident occured: 07:47 E.S.T. on November 5th of 2020 in the #politics/#cope-containment channel of the discord.
Discord name: Bip#8243
Admin:Sticky#7339/StickyMayhem
Detailed summary: After a disagreement that's not relevant here, (contained in the attached image regardless) sticky started spamming all caps telling me to "play in the sand pit with Jamal." As I do often, I posted an ape emote in response to my percepting him being dumb. It's not elegant but it certainly wasn't racially motivated. To make matters worse, I was legacy verified, and I won't be able to verify for the better part of the day.
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Bip
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580851

Sticky's justification in the discord itself.
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Stickymayhem
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Stickymayhem » #580853

I will start by saying it is impossible to prove definitively intent one way or the other when it comes to many administrative decisions. When someone tells you "I didn't mean to push him out the airlock I was just holding left and walking into him by mistake" it is impossible to determine whether this is the truth. If someone says "My brother was playing on my account and he's the one that griefed" this is impossible to prove. In both of these situations, we have to look at a pattern of behaviour to determine what the most likely intent was. Personally speaking, I will often reduce the punishment in correspondence with the uncertainty of the deed. How likely is this a mistake that they can learn from, versus a pattern of behaviour? If it's a learning exercise, then a shorter ban makes sense since it is unlikely to continue, but a pattern of behaviour should bring about harsher punishments.

So with these examples in mind, let's look at the actual instance that got goose kicked, followed by the context used to make that decision. Keep in mind throughout that this is a kick from the discord, a relatively minor punishment meant to remind someone where the line is.

He posted a gorilla emoji in direct response to my mentioning of the name Jamal, as well as someone else bringing that name up again right before it. I threw a random name out and I assert that he posted the gorilla as a dogwhistle in response to a black-sounding name. We can argue all day over this point, and it is not verifiable either way, so I made a decision based on the existing context of goose 1's general behaviour in the discord. An admin brought this up in admin chatter immediately afterwards and I compiled a quick image of quotes. I'm sure you can find many more yourselves if you're interested, I just skimmed off the first page.

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Are these jokes? Almost certainly. Are they precisely the kind of behaviour that's relevant to our new bigotry rule, and functionally identical to the image MSO himself posted in that thread as examples of the kind of behaviour that we should be curbing? Yes. I believe given this context that goose 1 crossed the line, comparing black people to apes as a dogwhistle while maintaining plausible deniability. He said it contextually right after I said the name, and right after Seal called attention to it again.

Let's assume that he genuinely meant what he said in this OP. I would argue that by continuously expressing bigoted views, he has opened himself up to a characterisation entirely of his own construction, and that he should be more aware of this context he's created. He chose to continuously demean people based on race, and now when there's a coinflip on whether it's bigotry or not, he's probably going to lose that based on previous behaviour.

Finally, it's a kick, there's no lasting note, there's no lasting effects. I'm sure it's inconvenient to have to reverify but the purpose of this punishment is to remind him and others where the line on bigotry is and comparing black people to fucking apes is certainly crossing that line in this community.
As I do often, I posted an ape emote in response to my percepting him being dumb.
I checked this, and this is the first time you have ever used the gorilla emoji in the discord based on a search. So this is a lie, or discords search doesn't handle emojis.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Bip
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580854

Let me break these down one by one.
When it pertains to the discord link it was just experimenting to see if it actually was a link.
The, "God I hate black people" quote was actively making fun of casual racism in France.
George Floyd funko pop is just making fun of commercialism.
All criminals are black is just a deconstruction of A.C.A.B. that's funny due to juxtaposition.
I don't see the incentive to retroactively make these punishable regardless ?

I don't think I've engineered a reputation for racism, I think you will see what you want to see.

Anyway, the problem here isn't that you interpreted what I said a particular way, the problem is that you assume that was 100% the only possible interpretation and immediately jumped to moderation.

This is moreso semantics but I also don't appreciate that you've not even attempted to talk to me about it, defaulting to addressing a 3rd party.
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580855

Also yes, discord has issues handling emotes in searches.
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Stickymayhem » #580856

Bip wrote:Let me break these down one by one.
When it pertains to the discord link it was just experimenting to see if it actually was a link.
The, "God I hate black people" quote was actively making fun of casual racism in France.
George Floyd funko pop is just making fun of commercialism.
All criminals are black is just a deconstruction of A.C.A.B. that's funny due to juxtaposition.
I don't see the incentive to retroactively make these punishable regardless ?

I don't think I've engineered a reputation for racism, I think you will see what you want to see.

Anyway, the problem here isn't that you interpreted what I said a particular way, the problem is that you assume that was 100% the only possible interpretation and immediately jumped to moderation.

This is moreso semantics but I also don't appreciate that you've not even attempted to talk to me about it, defaulting to addressing a 3rd party.
That third party came to me with the complaint on your behalf, you have every right to discuss this with me in discord DMs and I'd be happy to speak at length about the decision there.

I'm not saying these are retroactively punishable, and you were not punished for them, I'm saying that they diminish your capacity to imply your intent was innocent. If it was then I hope you can appreciate that when you do all the actions that make you look like a bigot ironically, then get unironically punished, you are in consequence pushing the exact same bigotry that unironic bigots actually hold. Masking yourself in the aesthetics of racists and then complaining when people think you are one seems to be a self-defeating system.

I didn't assume there was one interpretation, because the nature of a racist dogwhistle is the maintenance of plausible deniability. If we only punished based on what people said their real intent was, everyone would escape the majority of punishments. You can't trust the word of the person committing the act because they have every incentive to avoid scrutiny. So we interpret the likeliest possibility.

I would suggest that if deep in your heart of hearts you don't hold these beliefs, stop voicing them ironically using the same excuses, smokescreens and memes that genuine bigots, fascists and nazis use in this community to escape criticism. If you have no genuine agenda to push with these slurs and jokes then it's surely no great loss to stop using them right?

Also, given there is no lasting effect from the kick, there's no note to undo or ban to revoke. So I'm not sure what the resolution here is but I hope these posts are helpful to any other admins interpreting these decisions because the bigotry rules are tough to enforce correctly, mistakes will be made, and this may very well be one of them. But I'm sure we've banned people who's brothers genuinely fucked around on their account before too, and the consequences of these actions are the important thing to focus on, not the intent.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Bip
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580857

Half of these quotes in context are me making fun of racism. How is making fun of racism in France, "the aesthetics of racists ?" How is making fun of corporatism the same ? Let's for a moment entertain the idea that this was in actuality a racist dog whistle. What benefit would that even get me ?
Reminder that your subjectively interpreted intent, in this instance, is the only thing this is based on; I didn't throw someone out an airlock, the action itself is benign.

Anyway, I doubt entirely that genuine racists would use discussing the affects of racism in France as a medium for their true beliefs as racists. I also don't believe that racist dog whistle is the most likely possibility for posting a gorilla emote, I think that's what you defaulted to, and I think it has to do with the spheres of discussion you're most often involved in.
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580858

Sorry for clinging to that quote in particular by the way.

Anyway, an ideal resolution for me in this moment would be getting my legacy verification role back, as I won't be home for a while.

Not sure if that'd be possible.
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Stickymayhem » #580859

Bip wrote:Sorry for clinging to that quote in particular by the way.

Anyway, an ideal resolution for me in this moment would be getting my legacy verification role back, as I won't be home for a while.

Not sure if that'd be possible.
I didn't have any intention of removing your legacy verified role, sorry about that I've re added it. Apologies for inconveniencing you with the kick I appreciate it can be a pain to reverify if you're remote and the kick was intended to be a sharp "you crossed the line" not a ban.

Ultimately irony poisoning has removed our freedom to make these kind of edgy jokes. I was called out a couple months ago for my forum profile pick having a nazi cap. Originally that image was made by someone who complained I was a fascist when I was headmin and I embraced it ironically like 6 years ago. In the current climate I changed it after being criticised for it and I appreciate that we have to be a bit more careful. I'm obviously not a nazi, but I had a nazi cap like any real online nazi larper would so it's fair to assume you're good faith here.
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Boris wrote:Sticky is a jackass who has worms where his brain should be, but he also gets exactly what SS13 should be
Super Aggro Crag wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm Dont engage with sticky he's a subhuman
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Bip
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Bip » #580860

I've been trying to be more careful with the rule change, especially; I think it was simply an unfortunate misunderstanding.
Regardless, thanks for the role back, and I appreciate you being understanding.
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Bip - Unjustified Discord Kick

Post by Domitius » #580882

I'm not quite sure what happened here but this seems to be resolved so it will be locked and cleaned up promptly.
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