[Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

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[Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by iamgoofball » #584169

Post Content:
When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Forums
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: N/A
Admin: Unknown, they won't say and I highly doubt any admin will willingly snitch on them.
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: N/A
Detailed summary:

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=28111

This user is a neo-nazi shitstain who DM'd me the Christchurch shooting on one of his now plentiful discord accounts, since he keeps fucking getting banned from places and keeps having to ban evade, and/or ban evade actual full service discord bans.

I am currently digging around for the logs of this specifically that included the video thumbnail clearly showing the video was the CC shooting, but I cannot find it in my actual discord logs due to the fact that KWVance's original discord account was permanently banned and subsequently deleted.

However, I do have my email chain with Discord Trust and Safety. If a trusted admin requests it I can forward them the actual email itself for authentication purposes.

Image

I attempt to post this in the thread for KWVance's unban, as I am an individual who was directly impacted by this shitstain of a human being, and figure that if Swept's second-hand statements about their experience with them are passable enough for the thread, that surely this user actively sending me a video of people being murdered in mass by a horrible monster would be relevant enough to the character of the appealer that it could be posted.

I forgot to specify this reasoning, however, and my post was denied.
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1. Whether or not it's an in game ban appeal or a discord ban appeal doesn't matter. If someone is this level of shitstain and is permabanned for being an asshole, evidence that you stopped being an asshole/continued being an asshole since the ban is always relevant.

2. It's not a goddamn peanut post since it's a permaban, the point of a permaban appeal is to get references from people that you weren't a huge fucking asshole during your time away from the server, either in discord or in game.

I was providing a reference that this user is still continuing to be a fucking asshole. If you want more evidence, go talk to Unity Station's staff because they also had to deal with this shitstain posting the CC shooting there too, and also denying the holocaust alongside other general nazi shit.

I specify my reasoning for it not being a peanut post in the followup post, and demand a name if the post is denied again so that I can file an admin complaint against the post denier.

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The post is denied again incorrectly, an admin name is not given, and I am threatened by the denier to stop.

This is fucking bullshit and I don't know what this admin gets out of covering up this jackass continuing to be a jackass, since I'm the only one in the thread posting actual goddamn evidence instead of "well uhh i heard that he's been a jerk".

Like, what the fuck guys. I know "haha its goof" is an epic meme and all but come the fuck on. This guy sent me videos of a mass fucking shooting. He's a horrible monster who has not changed at all since his ban from /tg/.
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Re: [Unknown] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by oranges » #584174

It was Arianya

MSO will have to handle this since it's a complaint against a forum admin.
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Re: [Unknown] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by Arianya » #584175

Hi,

This is a complaint against me.

I'll respond in due course, but I would appreciate if you could post your citation for this exemption from peanut post rules:
It's not a goddamn peanut post since it's a permaban, the point of a permaban appeal is to get references from people that you weren't a huge fucking asshole during your time away from the server, either in discord or in game.
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Re: [Unknown] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by iamgoofball » #584176

oranges wrote:It was Arianya

MSO will have to handle this since it's a complaint against a forum admin.
Thanks, could you update the OP if you have perms? If I edit it, it'll hide the entire thread due to post approval.
Arianya wrote:Hi,

This is a complaint against me.

I'll respond in due course, but I would appreciate if you could post your citation for this exemption from peanut post rules:
It's not a goddamn peanut post since it's a permaban, the point of a permaban appeal is to get references from people that you weren't a huge fucking asshole during your time away from the server, either in discord or in game.
My citation is that this is the way "long time shitter appeals ban" appeals have always worked. Additionally, this actually disproves your claim that "discord stuff doesn't count for game ban appeals".

Let's look at Shezza's ban appeal, and the past precedent that applies from the ruling Hulkamania made.
This was a Game Server Ban appeal, for the record.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 34&t=22884
The ban appeal is going reasonably well for Shezza due to the vouch of good conduct, and they're basically a few submissive posts away from getting unbanned.
Then, Crag posts, with hard evidence, that Shezza directly told Crag to kill himself, and then making fun of him for being homeless, and declaring that his family hates him.

The appeal is then rejected by Hulkamania as a result, with the evidence taken into consideration, and now logged permanently in the ban appeal.

This handles two things as past precedent:
1. This solidly disproves "While this may be relevant to a *discord* ban appeal, this is an ingame ban
appeal" from the first denial, as this ban appeal proves with past precedent that discord behavior can and will impact your game server ban appeal.
2. This solidly proves that a user who is not explicitly named in the permaban appeal opening post can and should speak up as to their experience with this user, and that it does not count as peanut posting.
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by iamgoofball » #584186

And additionally, actual evidence being posted does matter over just hearsay and vouches from individuals.

Let's say that for some reason, IDK, COVID-20 hits and Armhulen and Swept become unreachable. KWVance magically appeals his permaban again, but this time the two people in his thread who said "yo this guy was shit" are now unreachable for comment by future admins who are considering unbanning the player.

Normally, they could point to direct hard, incriminating evidence of shit behavior in said appeal, but now there is none present, only hearsay and conjecture, and the staters of such are now unreachable. This admin is now forced to make a judgement call considerably less armed than they should be going into a permaban appeal.
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by iamgoofball » #584198

I have found the full evidence in my file.house history.
Warning: Singular frame from the CC shooting within this spoiler, it is a SFW frame of the outside of the mosque, no violence and/or bodies in this frame, but still might be enough to trigger an incident for someone who unfortunately saw the original video.
Spoiler:
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The 50 dollars I was demanding from this nazi shit for brains, from the Unity Station discord(posts no longer there as the user was banned):
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Image
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by XivilaiAnaxes » #584207

Being fair, they only reason "uh yeah he's a jerk" was permitted was because both of them were directly referred to by name in the appeal.
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by iamgoofball » #584217

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:Being fair, they only reason "uh yeah he's a jerk" was permitted was because both of them were directly referred to by name in the appeal.
Aye, but as the Shezza appeal shows, you don't have to be named directly to submit evidence of said player abusing you.
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by Vekter » #584245

I'm going to throw my input in here as the admin handling that appeal.

I feel like goof's evidence regarding the content he was sent by the player was a strong factor in my decision to deny his appeal. The idea that someone's actions on Discord can be completely divorced from their actions in-game is tenuous at best and, given that the conceit of the thread was "Do we think this person has changed enough to come back", I think it was more than relevant in this case.

Someone's actions out-of-game can't necessarily result in them being banned in-game, but it can inform us as to what this person is like or how they have acted recently.
AliasTakuto wrote: Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:11 pm As for the ear replacing stuff, you can ask Anne but I don't think this is what I was banned for. If I was all I can say is "Sorry for being hilarious"...
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Re: [Unknown] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by MrStonedOne » #584537

Arianya wrote:I'll respond in due course
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by oranges » #584546

Due course could be today, tomorrow, it could be in 2023!
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by Arianya » #584682

Hi, apologies for the delay, the holiday season always brings with it a certain amount of tumult.

By my understanding of your complaint, there are 3 main points to this:
  • Why was your post considered peanut?
  • Why was your second post returned with a message asking you to cease?
  • Why were other posts left untouched which seem to break the peanut rules?
I'll break these down pretty quickly, since this is ultimately a pretty trivial interaction.

Why was your post considered peanut?
Spoiler:
I'll link the Peanut Policy in full here because my formatting is too powerful for the server:

Ban Appeal Forum Rules

Now, a fairly straightforward reading of the rules suggests you were not involved in the incident that lead to their in game ban - after all, you're discussing discord messages. So by my evaluation you were someone to whom peanut policy would apply.

As a general precedent, character witnesses (including those bringing up past rounds/past incidents) have not been exempt from the rules, I will note the bottom line of the Peanut Policy here: "This is in order to streamline appeals/requests and to not make them a shit fest that people don't want to touch." - the explicit intent is to minimize arguing back and forth in appeals and keeping things as streamlined as possible.

The closest peanut rule this could possibly fall under is "bringing up evidence that was missed" - and there is some precedent, as you say, for server operators or headmins from other servers (people who can (mostly) be presumed to be some level of impartial) to bring up such evidence in a permanent ban.

However, your point is undercut by

a) Not being an impartial third party (i.e. you clearly felt personally wronged by the user, not an administrator who had observed misbehaviour from afar.
  • Your own past conduct also causes you issues here, as someone who is, being kind, not known for being impartial at the best of times.
b) Your evidence dates from June - the same period of time as their ban - typically when we consider information on permanent ban appeals we are looking for recent behaviour - as you can imagine we wouldn't take a reference from Paradise where they last connected there in 2017 when they got banned on our server in 2020, as a hypothetical.
  • As a subnote, it's worth noting that recency/age may not matter to the banning admin/the headmins where the conduct is bad enough to be grossly outrageous - but this is more of a general point then regarding the peanut rules in specifically
These two issues moved me to not view the post as peanut compliant, and so the post was rejected.

As far as the emotive argument that the user in question is/was a "shit-stain" and this compelled you to action, I would note that the admin handling the ban appeal (Vekter) seemed to already have a fairly good idea of the users history prior to your post:
E: It's worth noting that, after speaking with other admins regarding previous interactions with you, you'll need one hell of a vouch before coming back.
Addendum A: On Precedent of Permabans (The Shezza Footnote)
Spoiler:
As you've noted, there is some precedent in the permaban appeal of Wilchen/Shezza - wherein then headmin Hulkamania took into account discord message behaviour into the appeal.

There are three things worth noting here:
  1. Shezza's ban was a Rule 0 ban for, among other things "you have an extensive history in this community of shittery, stupidity, creepiness, and I'm putting it to an end. This is a rule 0 ban."
    1. Rule 0 bans, and especially those with that kind of reasoning, intrinsically have a wider scope for someone's place in the wider community. As such, it can certainly be argued that this behaviour was relevant to the ban appeal
    2. Equally, it can be argued that non-rule 0 bans should not be expanded in scope in appeal - this is generally to avoid us ruling impartially, even where we believe someone may be a detriment to the server/community. If someone, as the appealer was, was banned for "Rule 1 - Grief/Murder" on the server, it would generally be seen as poor to use discord messages on an unrelated matter to justify keeping the ban - it either stands on its own merit or the user should have been banned for a different reason.
  2. Hulkamania and Nervere were both Headmins at the time of this ban appeal. The FNR rules and their enforcement are at the discretion of the current headmins, and so any variation or lapsing of them is at their sole or joint discretion
    1. It is also worth noting that despite allowing this in Shezza's ban appeal, no amendment or change was made to the peanut rules or the general ban appeal ones, indicating that the headmins of the day either:
      1. Did not see this as the "new rule" - an exception made for a very unique ban appeal
      2. That they felt no need to add a clause for a situation that already represented their use of their executive privilege
  3. Last but not least, Wilchen/Shezza remains a divisive and polarized figure within the community - and so their exceptional ban appeal does not necessarily disprove the rule. The way bans have been conducted since that ban appeal do not seem to suggest a "new norm" of unrelated third parties bringing evidence for or against a user in any ban appeal

Why was your second post returned with a message asking you to cease?
Spoiler:
As previously discussed in admin complaints, users on post approval are under a much higher level of scrutiny for their posts. As a result, it is entirely possible that a post may be rejected that another administrator (or the headmins) would see as being fine to post.

However, it has been affirmed previously that users on post approval should not seek a "second opinion" via resubmitting their post for approval - repeatedly or singularly - it is better to seek either the opinion of a global moderator or the Headmins - preferably by Forum PM.

See April 2020 Admin Complaint to that effect
Why were other posts left untouched which seem to break the peanut rules?
Spoiler:
I see note in your complaint, as to the post of user Swept (and this equally applies to the post of user Armhulen) which were left undisturbed even after your post was rejected. I try to avoid offering views on other's post or what moderation was or wasn't taken on them, for the sake of brevity, but in this instance I will note that I felt these posts fell into a "grey area" due to the appealer's citing of those users' discord handles in their appeal as though they were supporters of them being unbanned.

While these posts unquestionably fall outside of the written rule of the peanut posting rules, I was motivated to seek clarification from the headmins as there was obviously an issue of whether these users had been made involved by their citation - as their implied association with the user could be seen as harmful.

Ultimately I opted to leave this in the hands of the headmins, pinging them within adminbus prior to this complaint being posted. I can't really comment further on this point without breaching the confidentiality aspect of the admin channels, so I will leave it at that.
Addendum B (The Evidence of Shittery Issue)
Spoiler:
To be clear, I do have some awareness of the fact that evidence of a user's misbehaviour shouldn't be buried for the strict "form of the rules" following sake. I do believe that Vekter (the handling admin) or the Headmins may have found the content you posted relevant to a decision being made - but there are many other avenues for providing this, including Forum PMs - this fulfills both the objective of making the issue known to administrators while also preventing inciting an argument in a streamlined ban appeal.
Side-note: As far as I'm aware I have no past interaction with the appealer in that ban, so I'm ignoring any suggestion of "covering up" or bias in favour of the appealer as without grounds.

I hope this helps you understand my reasoning, and if you still feel slighted I await the final ruling on this complaint eagerly.
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Re: [Arianya] Refusing evidence against player in Ban Appeals

Post by MrStonedOne » #584724

However, it has been affirmed previously that users on post approval should not seek a "second opinion" via resubmitting their post for approval - repeatedly or singularly - it is better to seek either the opinion of a global moderator or the Headmins - preferably by Forum PM.
I generally agree with this, but since phpbb doesn't tell the user who disapproved their post, and our systems for handling such queries to moderators are very sparse, I don't think its fair to assume that re-submitting the same post but with a paragraph on why the user thinks it should have been approved is moderator shopping.

In this complaint this is the only thing I can find any fault with, and its pretty minor, they clearly laid out a well reasoned argument for why they thought it was proper to disapprove the post, and they are correct in that argument. But! speaking of imperfect systems, there is no way for anybody, not even me, to see the content of previously disapproved posts, so there also wasn't really any way for ari to clearly see what (if anything) changed in the post other than their own imperfect memory.

Imperfect system operated by imperfect people leads to imperfect result. (aka: game rule 10)

Im gonna echo Ari's suggestion that such edge cases and grey areas can be handled by pming the headmins or banning admin on the forums.
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