[Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

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scapegoat
 
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[Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby scapegoat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:42 am #584726

When and where incident occured: Dec. 21, 2020, Manuel game server.
Byond account and character name: loojee (Kether Mavet/Jeremy Stamos, I guess.)
Admin: Gogo9001
Round ID: R152668 (https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/152668)
Detailed summary:

I'd like to preface this whole thing by saying that I thought the whole thing was hilarious. It was a very good idea for a joke round, and really my primary problem is with the execution of the joke and not the joke itself. Essentially what happened is that Gogo gave every player a random name and appearance which led to some wacky shit which I appreciate.

Second, I know that posts about events and event feedback are supposed to go somewhere else, but in my mind this isn't an event. It's the pressing of one button at the start of the round with no actual interaction between admin and player like there would be in a CC event or the like.

The reasons I think this was bad are:

1. The admin(s) did not consult the players at all whether they were okay with a joke round or the concept in general. I am aware that a lot of the humor comes from surprise but even just a poll like 'Funny round yes/no' would have greatly improved the situation.
2. While I personally didn't mind this joke, I know there are some people that did and performing a gimmick that was so round-altering, even if that round alteration wasn't necessarily intended, was unfair to the kinds of people that wouldn't appreciate it.
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Fig. 1
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A lot of the actual memery in this round came from the crew freaking out about the changes and killing themselves and causing general mayhem, and a lot of people don't like that sort of thing, especially when they join an MRP server not expecting it.
3. The admins did not force extended/secret extended beforehand. This led to a lot of people getting antag in a round that was essentially wasted, and it just seems kinda mean to take away people's chance to have a fun antag round and cause mayhem.

I would have at the very least liked antag tokens to be handed out following the round, after seeing how it went, if you can't just set it to sextended beforehand. This problem isn't quite as severe, just a mild annoyance.
4. My fourth problem actually does have to do with the joke itself, however it would be entirely negated if a poll had gone out beforehand or any other sort of interaction with the players.

This kind of thing does not at all fit a server that is even attempting to do any sort of roleplay. I'm aware that the atmosphere of the game hinges on silliness, but eliminating the central aspect of RP (characters) without any warning at all to the players kills any possibility for meaningful roleplay or storytelling in the round. A lot of people play here to build a character, build relationships, and tell stories, and things like this with no warning show very little respect for those kinds of people.

Finally, I would also like to mention that the admin that triggered this event is not even a Manuel admin, and I personally don't appreciate someone that doesn't understand the culture of the server triggering a borderline NRP event like this one without consulting the players. Just seems a little bit odd to me.

This just felt like an ill-conceived 'event' that was done with very little respect to the actual players partaking in the event. While I had no problem with it, others did, and it seems that this goes against the culture the server is trying to create.



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Gogodapogostick
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Gogodapogostick » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:22 am #584729

Hey, thanks for making this complaint. I'd like the preface this by saying that this event wasn't my idea, and multiple manuelmins and other approved it, I was just the one who pressed the button. Turning everyone to random name and body does not inherently ruin the opportunity for RP or antagging, all it does is remove any developed bias or friendship. As a result, I do not think I will be handing out tokens. To address your point about giving a warning beforehand, I will consider it more in the future. Everyone suiciding and freaking out is not just because I did the randomname and body, the players decided to do so. I see where you're coming from, but bottom-line this is more of a player issue than an admin one.

PostThis post was deleted by Owegno on Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:01 am.
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Exavere » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:44 am #584739

Finally, I would also like to mention that the admin that triggered this event is not even a Manuel admin, and I personally don't appreciate someone that doesn't understand the culture of the server triggering a borderline NRP event like this one without consulting the players. Just seems a little bit odd to me.


If Gogo hadn't triggered Random Everyone one of us would have, there was a 6+ collective that was for it; would've been more if others who wanted to be there for it made it. I was actually looking for the button before I was told it was already done. The plan was to make Everyone is Traitor along with it, but we decided we'd wait since Domitius would've liked to have been there for that Event and they were not; the Round was already in Motion. I don't mind if people would like an Antag Token or what not. Some of the things I'd like to express for this round that I noticed, and think, since we're here.

1. People immediately suiciding because they didn't have their Static Name for 1 round and proceeding to tell Admins to neck themselves IRL (Amongst other things, like do you have brain damage and whatever) over a button press. I found it hilarious that people were that upset over a 25 minute round, imagine telling someone to kill themselves over a video game; very mature.
2. Nothing was taken away from the players other than the utilization of their Static Name (Some never roll antag and are open about it, hmmmm). They were still able to play departments, talk with other players, greytide, arrest and get arrested. Everything normally. The station wasn't nuked with Meteors, Rods or the air was all stolen. I don't think you have to have a static to RP, you're just the new guy at the Bar RP now, but that's mostly a personal opinion.
3. The players who didn't care about it, took it in stride and proceeded to play the game normally, thought it was hilarious. Hats off to the gamers for being able to still play the game normally as a stranger, you're all amazing examples and are the definition of RP.
4. I don't think all Events have to be announced, nor should they be. Part of the game is like you said, the silliness that you do not expect to happen. I don't like it when people Ghost to skip out on an Event, to then roll back into it anyway or try to get in on it somehow. I've had the most success with Surprise Events like this working out to their full effect unannounced. That being said, I do think a Vote for "Something Funny" would've been a good idea. MRP is the Middle of LRP and HRP. It's the combination of the two to create an atmosphere where crazy/silly things can happen and people are still able to do their 2h+ Bar RP across 20 rounds and being a Random name prevents none of that from happening. I do not expect everyone to be a fan of any Event even on LRP because opinions differ across the board.
I would have at the very least liked antag tokens to be handed out following the round, after seeing how it went, if you can't just set it to sextended beforehand. This problem isn't quite as severe, just a mild annoyance.
4. My fourth problem actually does have to do with the joke itself, however it would be entirely negated if a poll had gone out beforehand or any other sort of interaction with the players

5. Using someone who talks about how great Bay is constantly while playing on Manuel isn't a great example of whether or not someone was truly bothered by it, just another personal opinion from me
6. Should put this here as well, how the heck is randomizing names for 1 round disrespectful to anyone? I don't think I will ever get it.

Now for a question for myself, and others who may think the same; and you totally don't have to answer it but I'd appreciate it if you did since it's apparently very important how bad this was. Given how the round ultimately went I still think it's fair to get a token for the poor antags who had to deal with everyone killing themselves - totally, but I still like to ask "Why should anything be done or handed out when people overreacted, crippling the round for themselves and everyone else?". No one was forced to suicide or to not play the game.

Also please don't try to say you didn't have a problem with it when you cleary did, that's just gah.
While I had no problem with it, others did


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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Timberpoes » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:01 am #584742

Hello. Quote Manuelmin unquote reporting in that formed part of the team that, combined, okayed this micro-event. I thought it was a fun experiment to try.

SS13 is a game. Games are meant to be fun. People take things too seriously. People should not take things so seriously.

Telling players about events in advance ruins the point of not knowing what will happen next shift. Not every event has to be carefully and publicly choreographed so that the players can mentally prepare themselves for it, devoid of shock or surprise.

I think a big problem is that players go into shifts on MRP with a lot of pre-conceptions about what they were going to do that shift and how it is going to play out from start to finish. That is not the nature of SS13 even on MRP. It is still a chaotic and unpredictable game where you can't go into it with a plan because you have no control over what will happen beyond the fact you're joining the game.

Between round types, other players and admins you can never be quite sure what will happen. I, personally, was interested in seeing how players would react to the shift from this perspective. I don't want to let pre-conceptions of server culture shackle my freedom as an admin to try out different things and see what works, what doesn't and how players act and react.

I would love to see this played out again without a vocal minority inciting players IC into suicide. If people approached it with the good faith we've come to expect from our MRP players, I think they may have found it a different and interesting experience. To anyone reading this who was interested in playing this scenario out and felt peer pressured into joining the ol' suicide pact, next time ignore the naysayers and give it a genuine good-hearted attempt to improv a new character.
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scapegoat
 
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby scapegoat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:25 am #584745

Understood. I am aware that many admins approved the event I just can't exactly put all of them here. I don't intend this to be a complaint on Gogo specifically, he's just the one that pressed the button.

I understand where you're coming from with regards to the reasoning around the event. I just happen to not like it when events aren't announced, and I personally would rather at least know that something is coming, and that it happens on extended/sextended.

Should put this here as well, how the heck is randomizing names for 1 round disrespectful to anyone? I don't think I will ever get it.


In retrospect, disrespect was the wrong word. Inconsiderate I feel would probably be more appropriate. That's my bad.

Also please don't try to say you didn't have a problem with it when you cleary did, that's just gah.


Yeah, sorry. I tend to act like an asshole when presented with the veil of anonymity that the Internet has, especially when I have someone to blame for something. Not great of me, I have issues controlling it. At the time my anger was more at how the execution of the event was handled, and I've calmed down a bit now, and can safely say I don't have any problem with the event itself. I genuinely don't want to disrespect any of you, and I'm aware that sounds like a lie but I promise it isn't

I would love to see this played out again without a vocal minority inciting players IC into suicide.


Agreed, but I feel like this kind of thing should be expected at this point. I think having some sort of warning would have once again helped this not be an issue.

but bottom-line this is more of a player issue than an admin one.


In all honesty I agree. My problem is almost entirely with the fact I feel the way it was executed wasn't ideal and players should have at least some amount of knowledge that they're going to have an unusual round.

Making a complaint about this might actually have been ill-conceived. I stand by my point that the execution was subpar, but this post probably would have been better off in a different format. I don't want any admins to be punished for this, I'd just appreciate if the players are given some warning and that when an event is being conceived that the desires and perspectives of all the players be considered.

I apologize if I seemed overly jaded during the round or in the 'complaint'. That was not my intent. I don't have any actual ill-will toward any of the admins.

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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Naloac » Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:14 am #584749

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I Might Be an admin, You should leave me feedback: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=24032
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Exavere » Tue Dec 22, 2020 10:12 am #584752

Yeah, sorry. I tend to act like an asshole when presented with the veil of anonymity that the Internet has, especially when I have someone to blame for something. Not great of me, I have issues controlling it. At the time my anger was more at how the execution of the event was handled, and I've calmed down a bit now, and can safely say I don't have any problem with the event itself. I genuinely don't want to disrespect any of you, and I'm aware that sounds like a lie but I promise it isn't


It's all good man, I understand the position you're coming from. I didn't intend to come across as trying to tear you a complete new one, I just get irked about stuff like that. You have a right to be annoyed, or frustrated, when you're sure that something is being done in a completely malicious manner; I think everyone should be able to express their feelings about stuff like that without fear of something worse coming of it.

I also agree the execution could have gone better. The intention was for a quick, crazy fun, chaotic meme round with Everyone is Traitor for shits and giggles; for people to have fun with something different than the usual. It turned into something not quite as planned, but we didn't think it'd be too much of an issue for one round - whoops rofl. I cannot speak for everyone, but I don't think any of the Admins involved had any malicious intention to just straight up grief the round and make everyone hate it.

I apologize if I seemed overly jaded during the round or in the 'complaint'. That was not my intent. I don't have any actual ill-will toward any of the admins.


I don't have any ill-will towards you either, shit happens and we learn from our mistakes. A quick "Want Meme Round" vote definitely would've been a good choice before hand to gauge player interest, to be more considerate in the future.
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PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:56 pm.
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Lacran » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:05 pm #584816

An issue I've encountered with events on Manuel is admins do something they think is funny for an admin to implement, which isn't always something that's actually enjoyable for the playerbase to engage with.

Admins have a responsibility to add to the round in a positive manner more so than anyone else, notifying players is the bare minimum consideration admins could make when making an invasive change round start with no real objective in mind. Not communicating this event to the playerbase did not benefit the round in any way, and likely only caused more drama.

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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby scapegoat » Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:46 pm #584821

An issue I've encountered with events on Manuel is admins do something they think is funny for an admin to implement, which isn't always something that's actually enjoyable for the playerbase to engage with.

100% agree

but I don't think any of the Admins involved had any malicious intention to just straight up grief the round and make everyone hate it.

Yeah, I definitely don't think it was intentional.

A quick "Want Meme Round" vote definitely would've been a good choice before hand to gauge player interest, to be more considerate in the future.


I appreciate it.

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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Cobby » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:40 am #584861

This is not the place to put your feedback on the event.

Please be mindful of events in AC subforum, bolds are edits done by me

TL;DR: If you have a problem with an event, it no longer goes (to admin complaints). Use Event Workshop for critique and ideas, use admin feedback to talk about a specific admin's events, and use singulo to bitch. Remember you can also talk to any admin by adminhelping, finding an admin you trust and PMing them or in #supportbus.
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scapegoat
 
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby scapegoat » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:28 am #584873

So, you basically just did the exact same event again, which is fine and all, but you still didn't provide a poll or any warning at all. Nice. It's kind of surprising that you would say you would try to do polls/warnings around events like this and do nearly the exact same thing a day later and... not do that.

Also, I was wrong when I previously said I had no problem with the gimmick. I don't like it. It isn't fun for me.

This is not the place to put your feedback on the event.


I saw the post, but this wasn't really intended as a critique of the event itself, more the way it was executed, so I was a little confused on where to put it.

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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby dragomagol » Wed Dec 23, 2020 6:11 pm #584917

For the record, none of the parties involved in this complaint pushed the anon_name button in round 152733, the second round with random names being referred to.
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Re: [Gogo9001] - Loojee - LRP event done with no respect to players.

Postby Domitius » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:39 pm #585534

While the many admins implicated in the original complaint have spoken up, event feedback should be directed towards the event workshop thread(https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=3723) or the respective admins feedback thread.

Gogo has not broken admin conduct and has not abused or used their admin tools maliciously.

This complaint will not be upheld.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Do not uphold.
Domitius: Do not uphold.
Naloac: Do not uphold.


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