Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

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TypicalRig
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Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by TypicalRig » #628374

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Feb 1st, Sybil.
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: TypicalRig - Finn Saylor
Admin: Cynic716
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 177648
Detailed summary: https://atlantaned.space/banbus/ticket/1b5271683aa078e2 for the full admin PMs.
Here are the events leading up to the ahelp, for context: I was playing as a felind botanist and early on we had the supermatter delam, which resulted in us quickly losing power. During this time, I had found the chef in crit in his kitchen, brought him to medbay for treatment, and later on found him back in full health so out of curiosity I was asking what happened to him as it looked like a very small explosion had gotten him and we were chatting about that. During this, a player (I believe a chemist based off one of the questions I got from Cynic and the fact he was in all white), randomly shoves and aggressive grabs me, then runs off with my PDA and ID as I was mid-speech. At first I just assumed he was messing around with me or searching me since we had no prior interaction, but then he runs off with said ID and bag, offering no hint as to what his deal was aside from saying "fucking wierdo". Well fuck. ID theft already is annoying as hell, but triple so in my scenario because of the following reason:
1. Power is out due to a delammed SM. This caused me a delay in an ID replacement.
2. A replaced ID does not replace missing credits. I could not continue with my job by buying seeds or chems even if the power was out.
3. With my current equipment, I could've somewhat continued my job as I already had botany chems, plants, and seeds, but all that was taken away for no reason.

So I ahelp, explaining this, and I'm not getting the fastest replies from her, so I'm adding in further details as they come to mind as I ahelped in quite the hurry. First, she asks me if I took the chems I have in my bag from chemistry, which makes me think the player was a chemist and accused me of such. Bizarre, but no big deal, I quickly shut that possibility down. The problem starts when she says that I haven't mentioned my "gimmick". I did not understand what she meant by this as I was playing my round the same as I always do and couldn't recall any gimmick I'm doing that would make me valid to grief. I ask for clarification, and am met with a rather pointed question and accusation in response. The exchange going like so:

Cynic716: you seemed to have not mentioned your gimmick there
TypicalRig: my gimmick being???
Cynic716: Are you like, gonna lie to me right now? I can see everything you've done and said

At this point, I'm both confused and slightly irritated for being accused of lying. There were plenty of other ways to get the information she wanted, and this was the poorest of choices on her end. I described the situation as precisely as I could and at this point was scrolling up through logs to triple check that I had never met Chiron before, not finding anything that indicated that. So I ahelped asking her to clarify instead of being vague, because I found this attitude unfair and unpleasant to handle. At this stage, she mentions that she meant "the annoying uwu speak thing".

For context, as a felind, I do a common speech gimmick that involves swapping the r's and l's in my sentences with w's. Fairly simple and harmless. Does not change the round in any real way. I do this every shift I play felind because I find it funny. Nothing more. This results in me explaining to her that's not justification to ruin my entire round like that. She says she's not a fan of what they did, but also that if I do annoying gimmicks I should expect negative attention? This baffles me even more as it sets the precedent that if you find someone's accent annoying, you can grief them, which is detrimental to an LRP community. If someone fucks with Roibeard over his Irish accent, is that also allowed? If someone targets Rick Hick because "He Talks In All Caps Like This" is that justifiable? I doubt she would make the same ruling in these scenarios. And even if she did, it's a ridiculous one. I try to explain why his reasoning is shoddy, and she comes out with yet another false accusation.

Cynic716: I'm looking at your note history and notice a similar pattern of banbaiting behaviior. the other guy also mentioned you not really trying to stop him while he was doing it, it was only afterwords that you got security on him WHILE ahelping it at the same time

HUH??? Not only were the notes in question that he pulled out were from 8-9 months ago, with no prior notes between them from then on, but it was at this point that I realised she had no idea what she was talking about. I did not fight back because one, I was mid-typing with the chef who had been blown up earlier, two, did not realise that he would completely remove my gear if he got away, and three, was stuck in an aggressive grab by the time I realised what was happening. Of course I called sec on him. He stole my things and made my job unplayable. Even if Cynic punished him (which seemed unlikely based off his tone) my shift is over until I get my access and credits back. This isn't banbaiting. I was in the middle of helping a player, got robbed at random during it over a SPEECH GIMMICK, and was then told that said speech gimmick is banbaiting. Despite this, I was not noted at the very least. I'm unsure if Chiron was punished or not, but based off what he said it's unlikely. The admin welcomed me to make a complaint, so here it is.

In essence, my complaint is over two things:
1. Unprofessional conduct. Used clearly pointed phrases like accusing me of lying. Lying by omission is a thing, but this only applies for intentionally leaving out important facts. If you think someone is doing and incorrectly call them out, that's on you. Cynic should've played it safe and simply asked me in a polite manner about the speech gimmick from the beginning. Instead, you went in hostile.
2. A clear inability to properly use the tools available to her (like notes, as her access to them only made the situation worse) and an even further lack of understanding of rule relevant terms like what "banbaiting" is. Banbaiting is when a person's intent is to trick someone into doing an action that would lead them to get banned. There was no trick here. I was talking in a goofy way with a chef who had been injured when some random chemist (?) attacked me, looted me, and used me being annoying as justification when I had never so much as spoken directly to him.
Last edited by TypicalRig on Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
Donpedrito
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by Donpedrito » #628375

Small correction: Cynic is a woman.
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TypicalRig
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by TypicalRig » #628377

Donpedrito wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:35 am Small correction: Cynic is a woman.
Whoops! Apologies! Have fixed the pronouns.
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by cynic716 » #628390

So, taking into account your combined total play time, alongside the fact that you've been consistently been playing for just over a year now and your over a thousand rounds split between Terry and Sybil: I have reason to believe that you know well and good that a catboy going around constantly doing "uwu speak" is the kind of gimmick that attracts negative attention from other players. Now I'm not one to be okay with doing really mean shit or harassing someone over something dumb like that, but I can't forgive the at best incredibly dishonest nature to your approach to not only that initial ahelp but this complaint as well.

You start the ticket doing a lot of priming and complaining about how your round is essentially ruined (apparently somehow not knowing you can link your bank account to a new id). You also emphasize that it was totally out of nowhere and you have no idea why he would do something like that other than grief.

Now, after questioning the other guy he just outright states
"i bullied him because he is speaking with w,s stole his backpack and ID and hid them and he never said a word"
So, I go check your say logs and it does turnout that you in fact have been doing a whole uwu speak gimmick this entire time which you never mentioned at any point before while definitely knowing that people find it annoying and that it's a very well established meme in this community. So, I directly sate that you didn't bother to mention your very obvious and very attention grabbing gimmick that you do constantly and have most likely regularly gotten negative/annoyed reactions from the crew for before. You then reply as though you have no idea what I mean and as though you have no gimmick. I ask if you're gonna lie to me, because I do not believe that you didn't immediately know EXACTLY what I was talking about, only acknowledging it after I directly state it. Even then you react with over-the-top surprise at me bringing it up and then state that it's "not a reason to grief" now here's the thing, I don't believe it is either and you seemed to have missed the part in the ticket where I said I was handling that. If I could do it again I'd have probably noted the chemist but instead I told him not to do it in the future.

Back to the main ticket at hand though, namely when I point out that you should really expect this kind of negative attention for the kind of gimmick you're doing. I say that because of the way you approached the ticket acting as though this was totally unexpected and out of nowhere and probably grief while also conveniently not bringing up your gimmick and even acting confused when I bring it up as the cause.

You then seem to get upset at me saying that, and while you are I'm checking your notes, turns out: at the very top is a previous ban in which you do something similar with overstating the harm done to you by the other party after intentionally bothering them.
Ahelped that a security officer pushed them into disposals, resulting in them being critted (which later they clarified wasn't actually crit but almost), and that they were stripped and round removed in disposals with no way of leaving. At the exact moment they ahelped, I orbitted them and the door was set to emergency maint access - so the round removal part was, already, not true. I checked logs and they unpromptedly shoved the security officer around 4-5 times, who responded by stunning, handcuffing, and only then shoving down disposals - which against does not constitute round removal. This is a perfect example of ban-baiting. When questioned, they said that I should refrain to respond to ahelps if I am personally invested (despite me not showing any signs of such). Appeal in the forums if you think this a mistake and you can explain yourself as to why you decided to harass an officer, since you wouldn't explain it to me.

This note, combined with everything before, led me to suspect you were intentionally doing this gimmick in the hopes of people causing conflict with you over it and being ready to start ahelping the moment they do, thus leading to me confront you on that, but ultimately letting it go because at that point the round had been held up from restarting for a bit and I felt I didn't have enough evidence to make pursing it further worth it.

That's my breakdown of this ticket and the reasoning behind each of the actions I took, if you or the headmins have further questions then shoot but I think overall my suspicions are substantiated enough to doubt your intent with the ahelp and I think you'll find most admins agree with me about the expectation of negative reactions to your gimmick.
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by WineAllWine » #628401

For admins, here is the link to Cynic's ahelp with the other party involved with this ticket:
https://atlantaned.space/tgdb/ticket/177648/3
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TypicalRig
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by TypicalRig » #628410

To address some quick points:

-I never denied people finding it obnoxious. Some people find it funny and like it, some are neutral, some just act like they can't understand me ICly the way they found a heavy accent IRL, and some find it outright annoying. It's a very mixed community with differing reactions. I get both extremes. What I did deny, is being a mind reader. Did Chiron Reynolds state why they attacked me? No. Did they give any hints toward such? No. Your mistake here, actually boils down in two parts. The first being that I can pinpoint a player's reasoning without any explanation. The second being, that on LRP, that people necessarily HAVE a reason for attacking and looting someone. You are a Game Admin, so I am going to assume that you have the experience to know that players will shove stun others, push them on to glass tables, stun their fellow officers for laughs at round start, and so on, just because they can. When you take this into account, me assuming that it was for no reason is... a completely normal response. I WAS confused when you brought up my uwu speak as a cause. Not because it was unthinkable that someone would attack me for that, but unthinkable that you would presume I would know that without any hints toward it and unthinkable that you would accuse me of lying over that.

-I will admit this is nitpicking on my behalf and a very small point, but you using phrases here such as "over-the-top" to describe my explanations in the PM where I am visibly frustrated is half the reason why I find this topic necessary to make. It is unnecessarily belittling and irrelevant to the topic, just like how I found your PMs.

-A small part about the bank syncing thing. I actually didn't know that! As usually if someone takes my ID in a way not justifiable by the rules it's either handled by the admins OR I'm playing a job that doesn't require credit use. That's on me for not being aware of the feature, but thank you for bringing it to my attention.

-I didn't miss that part about you getting on to Chiron. The complaint isn't about if you did or didn't punish him, or how you punished him. I did explicitly put the two bullet reasons in the conclusion section and thought that would make it apparent that the focus was on these, rather than how you handled Chiron. I should not have made assumptions and explicitly stated such. I will make sure to be more clear in the future on these matters.

-I was upset in the ahelp! I would not be making an admin complaint over a situation I wasn't even noted for if I wasn't upset. And I think justifiably so. My perspective: From the beginning, it seemed as though you had a vendetta against me. The question about getting the chems for chemistry was already strange enough, as unless Chiron said I was a thief you would have no reason to ask that that I could think of. So it seemed like you were /looking/ for a reason. I gave you the benefit of the doubt with this but still lightly touched upon it in this topic for this very reason. Then, you accuse me of lying. Let's pretend you are correct for a moment and you have successfully called me out. From your end, was whatever gain from this action enough justification to risk being rude to an innocent player? If so, what was that gain? Let's put aside the if I am a liar or not discussion for a moment to explain why you thought this was the correct way to handle things, since that is something I do not understand.

-That is my top note because it is the last note I have received in 8-9 months, as my conduct has not been problematic for said duration. I do not find it relevant to this scenario. I also don't find a note from over half a year ago a good representation of me, but that is for the admins to determine.

If I missed anything or anything else needs addressing, feel free to ask me.
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by Timberpoes » #628456

typicalrig's last entry in their notes (the currently discussed ban) was placed on 2021-05-29 and the marker is 292h living playtime.

As of the current time of posting, I checked their current living playtime and that's recorded as 508h.

They have ~210h living playtime since that ban and the date it was placed is long enough ago that the ban is well into fading on their notes page.

How relevant this is to the complaint? Who the fuck knows.

However, these are the hard numbers to give context to that ban since it keeps being brought up.
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Re: Cynic716 - Unprofessionalism and Lackluster Understanding of Rules

Post by tattle » #630159

For the most part we think that Cynic handled this acceptably; you aren't opening yourself up to having your stuff stolen just because you use uwuspeak, and the other player was talked to and noted. As per Rule 6, "If an admin says something was 'looked into, handled, resolved' etc, regarding an issue, it is unlikely an admin will provide any further information." In the ticket linked, Cynic said she was not a fan of the other player's behaviour and would be "dealing with that."

However, Cynic's accusations that the player was lying by not mentioning their relatively harmless gimmick and intentionally baiting this kind of reaction to not be something we want to see from admins, which we have addressed with them.

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