[AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescalate'

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Zybwivcz
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Byond Username: Zybwivcz

[AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescalate'

Post by Zybwivcz » #639262

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Sybil
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Zybwivcz / Kolton Fischer
Admin: AwkwardStereo
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 182416
Detailed summary:

Start of the round. I'm a SEC officer. I come across Brick Mortar, an engineer, in maintenance near departures in the act of hacking into a sci department door that opens up into a small enclosed room. Since he's in the middle of trying to hack his way in to a room he doesn't have access to, and because it makes a good spot for cult bases, heretic runes and the like, I start to arrest him by stunning him with my baton. Brick manages to get my baton and stun me before dragging me into a room in maint.
Brick Mortar stuns you with the stun baton!
x2

Brick Mortar puts the stun baton into the industrial satchel.
x2

Your muscles seize, making you collapse!
You're too exhausted to keep going...
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "Fuck off"
[Security] Kolton Fischer stammers, "B-Br-ric-ck-k b-bad-d"
Kolton Fischer whispers, "B-Br-ric-ck-k b-bad-d"
Brick Mortar stuns you with the stun baton!
Brick Mortar puts the stun baton into the industrial satchel.
He drags me into a room in maint, locks the door, strips my headset when I try to call for help, and explains he was engaging in some random griefing by creating a disposals loop.
[Security] Kolton Fischer stammers, "M-Main-n"
Kolton Fischer whispers, "M-Main-n"
Brick Mortar handcuffs you.
Brick Mortar throws the cable coil.
Brick Mortar puts the screwdriver into the toolbelt.
You're restrained! You can't move!
You hear a click from the bottom of the door.

Brick Mortar puts the wirecutters into the toolbelt.
Kolton Fischer attempts to remove the cable restraints!
You attempt to remove the cable restraints... (This will take around 30 seconds and you need to stand still.)
Brick Mortar puts the screwdriver into the toolbelt.
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "I was"
[Security] Shouty Johnson yells, "AI let me out of bridge so I can render aid, please!!"
Brick Mortar says, "Building a disposals trap"
Since this is clearly antag behavior, but the way Brick is describing his actions makes him sound like he's just retaliating for getting interrupted in the middle of some tiding, I ahelp. AwkwardStereo responds. Meanwhile Brick has cuffed me to a pipe in a locked room in maint while continuing to build a disposals loop trap:
Brick Mortar says, "That inaction is what got you"
Brick Mortar says, "Into this situation"
Brick Mortar says, "There is nobody coming to rescue you"
You're shoved by Brick Mortar!
Brick Mortar says, "Do you understand"
Brick Mortar says, "I'm going"
You unbuckle yourself from the omni pipe.
Kolton Fischer attempts to remove the cable restraints!
You attempt to remove the cable restraints... (This will take around 30 seconds and you need to stand still.)
Brick Mortar says, "To do with you"
Brick Mortar grabs you passively!
You fail to remove the cable restraints!
Brick Mortar buckles you to the omni pipe!
Brick Mortar says, "What"
Brick Mortar says, "I was going to do"
Brick Mortar says, "In here in the first place"
After a bunch of back and forth with AwkwardStereo I get cut lose after about a quarter of an hour of being cuffed to a pipe without comms in maint. AwkwardStereo eventually tells him to let me go, and tells me to not do anything to Brick:
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: I'll ask him to cut you loose, just don't fuck with him immediately after he cuts you loose.
At issue, and the source of my disagreement with AwkwardStereo, is that this was not a violation of the rule against retaliating against SEC for valid arrests. AwkwardStereo conceded I had a valid reason to arrest Brick. AwkwardStereo claims that Brick says he believed he was getting arrested for no reason whatsoever, despite being stunned literally standing in front of a door hacking it open and admitting repeatedly he was doing so for no reason other than to set up a disposals loop to grief with. AwkwardStereo seems to buy this claim, and insists that I was at fault for not trying to explain to Brick IC why I arrested him after he's stunned me, cuffed me, stripped me, and buckled me to a pipe in maint. These parts of my back and forth with him lay out the issue, so I'll just quote them:
PM to-Admins: Has there been a change to the policy that you can't attack SEC just for doing their job? Is arresting someone trying to break into a room in maint for no discernable legitimate reason not part of SEC's job? Explain what I'm missing here.
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: He believes it was a random search, which is against policy, and you haven't said a word to the contrary. Again, I'll have him cut you loose but don't fuck with him immediately after you are released.
PM to-Admins: Is there a situation where stripping someone of comms and cuffing them in maint for a quarter hour is acceptable when the initial "offense" is stunbatonning them? That sort of bullshit wouldn't be proportionate if it had been an assistant doing it.

PM to-Admins: Under what possible interpretation of any rule is it ok to take someone out of the round because they won't talk to you?

Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest. You not talking to them escalated things into where we are now. Just explain to him, at any point while you were sitting there wordlessly, that he was hacking into a location that seemed a reasonable enough place to set up for possible wrong doings.

PM to-Admins: How can literally doing nothing be escalation? He was hacking into a door to set up a trap, by his own admission it wasn't an innocent act.

Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: Brick believed the search was a FNR one, which would have been against policy for you. That wasn't the case, but you never explained that to Brick, who clearly wasn't doing anything else but asking you to speak to see what the deal was.

PM to-Admins: He stunned me, dragged me into a room in maint, welded the door shut, stripped me of my headset, and cuffed me to a pipe. How is that not "doing anything"?
PM to-Admins: If he did honestly think it was a random search, which is ridiculous enough given he was by his own admission there to set up some random griefy trap, what stops him from asking me why I arrested him without stunning me, stripping me, and trapping me in maint?

Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: In truth, probably nothing. But I don't fault him for resisting what he perceived as a FNR arrest. Especially considering at every opportunity he tried to engage with you to deescalate the situation you said absolutely nothing but instead put an infinite more amount of effort into ahelping the situation (which I don't mean to sound like putting blame on you, but I am having to spend a lot more time with you than I would like instead of talking with Brick).

PM to-Admins: Being arrested while trying to hack a door cannot reasonably be said to be a reason to suspect you're being arrested FNR. Being arrested FNR is not an excuse to baton the sec, strip their headset, and trap them in maint. How the hell is that remotely characterized as 'deescalating the situation'?
PM to-Admins: If he had wanted to deescalate even for a second you know what he could have done? He could have stopped doing that. He didn't for a quarter hour.
PM to-Admins: The reason I ahelped in the first place because the conduct was either being carried out by an antag in which case I was screwed regardless, or so obviously an egregious violation of server rules that an ahelp was justified.
To summarize: As A.S. admits, I had a valid reason to arrest Brick. You can't retaliate against SEC for doing their job and arresting you. Since I attempted to arrest Brick while he was literally in the act of hacking into a door as part of a self-confessed plan to set up a pointless griefing sort of disposals loop trap, it's not plausible that he thought he was being arrested "for no reason", nor does the IC chat show any evidence that was his belief at the time nor would it have been grounds for his actions even if he had believed it.

Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them into is obviously retaliation.
Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them does not lend itself to the idea that simply asking IC to be let go is going to be productive.

A.S. contends that I escalated the situation by doing nothing. I contend that doing nothing is not a form of escalation.
A.S. contends that Brick tried to deescalate as he "clearly wasn't doing anything". I contend that Brick's actions constitute doing something.

In summation I contend that AwkwardStereo misunderstood and/or misapplied the rule against not retaliating against SEC for doing their job in this instance.
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Timberpoes
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Timberpoes » #639343

Zyb, can you explain to us why throughout all of this you basically didn't communicate with Brick/Scriptis after you said "brick bad"?

I think a fair bit of weight is being placed on the fact that you could have diffused this incident ICly by just explaining what was going on, which prolonged how long you were detained for and also feeds partially into the reason Brick/Scriptis turns around and detains you in the first place.
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Scriptis
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Scriptis » #639345

Hey, Brick Mortar here.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't escalating against a valid arrest (or, in this case, from my perspective, a wholly invalid arrest) only preclude the use of lethal force? This is why assistants can robust officers trying to arrest them--otherwise, every single person on Sybil would be banned by now.

I was fully ready to release you immediately after detaining you after a short talk, which you simply refused to have, instead opting for the slow march of admin bureaucracy. I was planning to spend my shift manning a disposals loop, catching and releasing greyshirts (a gimmick I am now lovingly calling "birdwatching"), and made no active effort to ruin your round (this is why you left completely unscathed with all of your gear, barring a baton and headset). Instead, I had to keep you cuffed to a pipe for fifteen minutes while you discussed with AwkwardStereo how you could've gotten out of the situation, which, again, you could've done at any time by asking me, in character, "so what were you planning on doing anyway" and "oh I guess that's not so bad" or "hey man look, could you just not do that?"

Intent matters here. From where I was standing, your intent was to stall for time by getting an admin involved in a situation, and then using the time I had to spend responding to that admin to constantly try to break out of the cuffs I had put you in to continue escalating the situation. I was not interested in continuing escalation, which led to you getting buckled to a pipe. And I couldn't let you go now--because now I had to talk to an admin about what to do with you.
Zybwivcz
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Byond Username: Zybwivcz

Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Zybwivcz » #639369

Timberpoes wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:26 pm Zyb, can you explain to us why throughout all of this you basically didn't communicate with Brick/Scriptis after you said "brick bad"?

I think a fair bit of weight is being placed on the fact that you could have diffused this incident ICly by just explaining what was going on, which prolonged how long you were detained for and also feeds partially into the reason Brick/Scriptis turns around and detains you in the first place.
Getting stunned, stripped, and cuffed to a pipe in maint doesn't lend itself to the idea that your abductor is going to just let you go if you ask once, to put it lightly. Is there any actual reason for me to have thought that would actually work, rather than being a post hoc defense of a poor decision?

As AS concedes in the logs, Brick had plenty of ways of getting a response to the question of why he was arrested(although that was 100% obvious to him from the start) that didn't involve abducting me.

And since he was arrested mid-crime, plus his bitching in chat about how I stopped his disposals trap setup, it was already very obvious to me he was just pissed over getting interrupted by SEC. All of this gave me zero reason to think just asking to be let go would work. If if we're pretending Brick didn't know why he got batonned can someone point out to me the unambiguous request to explain why he was arrested? And remember this all happened after the retaliation so my failing to answer a question he didn't actually ask can't absolve an act committed before he asked anything.
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "Fuck off"
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "I was"
Brick Mortar says, "Building a disposals trap"
Brick Mortar says, "For funny"
Brick Mortar says, "And you"
Brick Mortar says, "Just waltz in"
Brick Mortar says, "And do stupid shitsec things"
Brick Mortar says, "What did you expect"
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "Explain to me"
Brick Mortar says, "You aren't"
Brick Mortar says, "Talking to me"
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "You aren't using your words"
Brick Mortar says, "That inaction is what got you"
Brick Mortar says, "Into this situation"
Brick Mortar says, "There is nobody coming to rescue you"
Brick Mortar says, "Do you understand"
Brick Mortar says, "I'm going"
Brick Mortar says, "To do with you"
Brick Mortar says, "What"
Brick Mortar says, "I was going to do"
Brick Mortar says, "In here in the first place"
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "You can come out any time"
Brick Mortar says, "All you have to do is use your words"
Brick Mortar says, "Comedy"
Brick Mortar says, "I am"
Brick Mortar says, "In a conversation"
Brick Mortar says, "With god right now"
Brick Mortar says, "About what to do with him"
Brick Mortar says, "And refuses to use"
Brick Mortar says, "ANY words"
Brick Mortar says, "Whatsoever"
Brick Mortar says, "He's completely mute"
Brick Mortar says, "Let me"
Brick Mortar says, "See you out"
Brick Mortar says, "You're"
Brick Mortar says, "Extremely quiet"
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "It looks like there's an actual cult"
Brick Mortar says, "Incredible"
Brick Mortar says, "It looks like"
Brick Mortar says, "I'm still in business"
Brick Mortar says, "With this here"
Brick Mortar says, "PRANK that I was constructing"
Brick Mortar says, "Gottem"
Brick Mortar says, "Pranked"
Brick Mortar says, "Destroyed"
Brick Mortar says, "Let me see you out"
If the new server rule is that retaliating against SEC for valid arrests is to be handled as an IC issue, then change it to say that.

As it stands the rule is that escalation policy doesn't let you retaliate against SEC for valid arrests, which is what even AS seems to concur happened, and that it's not just an IC issue but something to be handled by admins. If that remains the case then admins should enforce the rule.
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Scriptis
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:05 am
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Scriptis » #639372

Also, just for context, the door in question I was hacking when Zyb charged me with a baton:

Image

Hopefully this adds some much needed context as to why I took the actions I did.
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AwkwardStereo
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:24 am
Byond Username: AwkwardStereo

Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by AwkwardStereo » #639385

I'm not taking a single word of this.

Ticket Log from Zybwivcz and Scriptis during the round for the sake of reference, as I pull from them a couple times.
Spoiler:
From Ticket #2 during round 182416 on Sybil
Ticket opened at 2022-05-01 02:53:29 by zybwivcz
Log:
02:53:29: Ticket Opened by-zybwivcz: If Brick isn't an antag please explain to him non-antags can't randomly attack and strip SEC officers for doing their job.
02:53:55: Reply from-awkwardstereo: I'll take a look into it.
02:56:21: Reply from-awkwardstereo: Out of curiousity, did you attempt to arrest them?
02:56:37: Reply from-zybwivcz: Yes, because I caught him trying to hack into a door in maint.
02:56:54: Reply from-zybwivcz: Which obviously falls within the job of SEC
02:57:24: Reply from-awkwardstereo: Which door exactly? Leading into a department maint door?
02:58:29: Reply from-zybwivcz: A science door. Which is obviously suspicious since it's a likely spot for a cult base or heretic rune or whatever. And it turned out to be a disposals trap which he's tossed me into after stripping my headset, taking me out of the round unless someone passes by. ##There is no fucking way this is anything other than bannable if he's not an antag.
03:00:24: Reply from-awkwardstereo: I'll have words with him, but I encourage you in the future to attempt to use your words and explain that to them.
03:00:47: Reply from-zybwivcz: I didn't get a chance to until he had stunned me with the baton he stole and cuffed me in a locked room in maint.
03:01:39: Reply from-awkwardstereo: You have had plenty of opportunities to use your words since opening this ahelp.
03:02:18: Reply from-zybwivcz: I ahelped because what he did was a stunningly clear violation of server policy. If I thought it was just an IC issue that's what I would have done.
03:03:25: Reply from-awkwardstereo: You can still talk to them and resolve things ICly while things are going on in the background. Sitting there not saying anything does not help the case with people being batonned for, what they perceive, to be no reason.
03:03:55: Reply from-awkwardstereo: I'll ask him to cut you loose, just don't fuck with him immediately after he cuts you loose.
03:04:03: Reply from-zybwivcz: I batonned him while he was trying to break into room. He's bullshitting you if he's claiming it was done randomly or that he had no idea why it happened.
03:05:40: Reply from-zybwivcz: Has there been a change to the policy that you can't attack SEC just for doing their job? Is arresting someone trying to break into a room in maint for no discernable legitimate reason not part of SEC's job? Explain what I'm missing here.
03:06:19: Reply from-awkwardstereo: He believes it was a random search, which is against policy, and you haven't said a word to the contrary. Again, I'll have him cut you loose but don't fuck with him immediately after you are released.
03:06:41: Reply from-zybwivcz: Is there a situation where stripping someone of comms and cuffing them in maint for a quarter hour is acceptable when the initial "offense" is stunbatonning them? That sort of bullshit wouldn't be proportionate if it had been an assistant doing it.
03:07:20: Reply from-zybwivcz: Look at the logs. I batonned him as he was actively hacking the door. If he claims it was a random search, or that it was perceived by one as him, he's lying
03:07:43: Reply from-awkwardstereo: And he doesn't understand that it wasn't a "random search" like he thinks it was because you refused at every opportunity o talk to them.
03:08:30: Reply from-zybwivcz: Under what possible interpretation of any rule is it ok to take someone out of the round because they won't talk to you?
03:11:12: Reply from-awkwardstereo: You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest. You not talking to them escalated things into where we are now. Just explain to him, at any point while you were sitting there wordlessly, that he was hacking into a location that seemed a reasonable enough place to set up for possible wrong doings.
03:12:00: Reply from-zybwivcz: How can literally doing nothing be escalation?##He was hacking into a door to set up a trap, by his own admission it wasn't an innocent act.
03:12:50: Reply from-awkwardstereo: Brick believed the search was a FNR one, which would have been against policy for you. That wasn't the case, but you never explained that to Brick, who clearly wasn't doing anything else but asking you to speak to see what the deal was.
03:13:28: Reply from-zybwivcz: He stunned me, dragged me into a room in maint, welded the door shut, stripped me of my headset, and cuffed me to a pipe. ##How is that not "doing anything"?
03:14:50: Reply from-zybwivcz: If he did honestly think it was a random search, which is ridiculous enough given he was by his own admission there to set up some random griefy trap, what stops him from asking me why I arrested him without stunning me, stripping me, and trapping me in maint?
03:20:48: Reply from-awkwardstereo: In truth, probably nothing. But I don't fault him for resisting what he perceived as a FNR arrest. Especially considering at every opportunity he tried to engage with you to deescalate the situation you said absolutely nothing but instead put an infinite more amount of effort into ahelping the situation (which I don't mean to sound like putting blame on you, but I am having to spend a lot more time with you than I would like instead of talking with Brick).
03:22:31: Reply from-zybwivcz: Being arrested while trying to hack a door cannot reasonably be said to be a reason to suspect you're being arrested FNR.##Being arrested FNR is not an excuse to baton the sec, strip their headset, and trap them in maint. ##How the hell is that remotely characterized as 'deescalating the situation'?
03:23:00: Reply from-awkwardstereo: The multiple times he asked you to start speaking to explain that to him.
03:23:49: Reply from-zybwivcz: All of which was happening with me stripped of comms and cuffed to a pipe in maint.
03:24:11: Reply from-zybwivcz: If he had wanted to deescalate even for a second you know what he could have done? He could have stopped doing that. He didn't for a quarter hour.
03:25:08: Reply from-zybwivcz: The reason I ahelped in the first place because the conduct was either being carried out by an antag in which case I was screwed regardless, or so obviously an egregious violation of server rules that an ahelp was justified.
03:26:14: Reply from-awkwardstereo: If you had, at any point in the 15 minutes you sat there in complete silence while he was asking you why, we might be in a different position. He acted on the pretense that you were initiating a FNR arrest, which would have been a violation of server policy against him.
03:27:40: Client disconnected
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0
Spoiler:
From Ticket #3 during round 182416 on Sybil
Ticket opened at 2022-05-01 02:55:13 by awkwardstereo
Log:
02:55:13: Ticket Opened by-awkwardstereo: When you get a moment can you tell me what's going on between you and Koltnon that seccie?
02:55:26: Reply from-scriptis: I was building right here in maints and he rushed in and tried to detain me
02:55:37: Reply from-scriptis: He refuses to use his words so I am now putting him in a disposals loop
02:55:49: Reply from-scriptis: this is the most IC of IC issues of all time
02:57:49: Reply from-awkwardstereo: I would appreciate it if you removed him from the disposal loop, but I won't expect you to uncuff him.
02:58:24: Reply from-scriptis: stereo he batoned me in maints FNR and is now, beyond any reasonable doubt, attempting to valid me for his fuckup
02:58:55: Reply from-scriptis: I want his word that he's not going to get out of this tube and then perma/murder me
03:01:17: Reply from-scriptis: Are you still working on this?
03:01:23: Reply from-awkwardstereo: Yeah.
03:04:50: Reply from-awkwardstereo: He had a valid enough reason to initiate an arrest, but his absolute insistence to not say anything after the fact is so mind numbingly frustrating.
03:06:39: Reply from-awkwardstereo: Cut him loose for now, you don't have to take his cuffs off but just take him out of the GBJ.
03:07:00: Reply from-scriptis: okey doke##but if he comes back to arrest me after, in spite of there being a cult, he's going in the bin
03:27:47: Client disconnected
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0
Zybwivcz wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:22 amA.S. contends that I escalated the situation by doing nothing. I contend that doing nothing is not a form of escalation.

Code: Select all

[2022-05-01 02:52:27.685] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has handcuffed Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
 ...
[2022-05-01 02:53:29.966] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #2: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer): If Brick isn't an antag please explain to him non-antags can't randomly attack and strip SEC officers for doing their job.
This would be the case if Zyb had actually done nothing. Instead, after being placed in cuffs they ahelped 60 seconds later having never said a word to Brick before or after. This is a form of escalation, seeking OOC retribution and involving an admin in a situation that should have been an IC issue given the fact I believe both parties had valid reasonings for their actions and had told both of them as such.
Zybwivcz wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:22 amA.S. contends that Brick tried to deescalate as he "clearly wasn't doing anything". I contend that Brick's actions constitute doing something.
This is a quote taken out of context and does not set up the intent of the message very well.

Code: Select all

[2022-05-01 03:08:30.903] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer)->AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler): Under what possible interpretation of any rule is it ok to take someone out of the round because they won't talk to you?
[2022-05-01 03:11:13.544] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler)->Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer): You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest. You not talking to them escalated things into where we are now. Just explain to him, at any point while you were sitting there wordlessly, that he was hacking into a location that seemed a reasonable enough place to set up for possible wrong doings.
[2022-05-01 03:12:01.691] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer)->AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler): How can literally doing nothing be escalation?##He was hacking into a door to set up a trap, by his own admission it wasn't an innocent act.
[2022-05-01 03:12:52.026] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler)->Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer): Brick believed the search was a FNR one, which would have been against policy for you. That wasn't the case, but you never explained that to Brick, who clearly wasn't doing anything else but asking you to speak to see what the deal was.
[2022-05-01 03:13:29.079] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer)->AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler): He stunned me, dragged me into a room in maint, welded the door shut, stripped me of my headset, and cuffed me to a pipe. ##How is that not "doing anything"?
I have tried at multiple points before this moment to encourage Zyb to engage in the situation with Brick to amicably resolve things ICly by simply explaining the reason he had already given to me to initiate an arrest against Brick. Brick was ignored at every opportunity presented to Zyb to explain themselves, a clear attempt from Brick at de-escalating the situation in good faith. I've established both that Brick had reason enough to resist the search as FNR, and Zyb as having enough to initiate a search. Zyb has been out of Brick's custody for a fair while now, this is just follow up. Brick had 15 minutes of time and he spent it trying to talk to Zyb. I tried to put forward to Zyb in this message that in the entire time he was arguing with me he could have been attempting to deescalate the situation with Brick by reciprocating his attempts to talk, to explain anything of what they've done. Brick wasn't doing anything else the entire 15 minutes but trying to talk.

Does not talking subject you to round removal? I can't say one way or the other, but for Brick he has nothing to work with. I don't blame him for playing it safe with a person who has made it clear that they were not interested in trying to talk things out. Why waste the effort on someone who is not willing to put in even the bare minimum?

The fact that their interaction lasted more than 15 minutes is where things were stupid and frustrating for me. Zyb's insistence to not say a word to Brick who was trying to speak to him to sort things out. The entire time I am talking to a wall that lacks any willingness to engage with the world with anything that doesn't go snap, crack, or bang but is clearly content to rant a storm in ahelps.

The logs below show that multiple times Brick made an effort to engage with and even made it plainly obvious to anyone who was listening why he was doing what he was doing.

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[2022-05-01 02:53:57.281] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you aren't" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:58.582] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "talking to me" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:59.197] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:02.483] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you aren't using your words" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:05.553] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:08.747] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "that inaction is what got you" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:10.959] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "into this situation" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
No response from Zyb.

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[2022-05-01 02:57:47.012] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:57:49.137] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you can come out any time" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
...
[2022-05-01 02:57:53.796] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "all you have to do is use your words" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
No response from Zyb.

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[2022-05-01 02:59:29.510] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I am" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:31.627] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "in a conversation" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:33.027] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "with god right now" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:36.367] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "about what to do with him" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:39.703] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "because he attempted to random search me" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:42.693] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and refuses to use" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:43.590] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "ANY words" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:44.540] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "whatsoever" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:47.089] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "he's completely mute" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:57.042] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "let me" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:59:58.033] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "see you out" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
No response from Zyb, though I will concede in this singular instance he was not directly talking to them.

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[2022-05-01 03:02:43.917] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you're" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:02:45.713] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "extremely quiet" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:02:46.783] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:02:57.719] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "it looks like there's an actual cult" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:02:59.006] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "incredible" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:03:00.524] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "it looks like" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:03:03.584] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "i'm still in business" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:03:05.488] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "with this here" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:03:07.841] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "PRANK that I was constructing" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
No response from Zyb. While not directly imploring Zyb to speak, Brick again puts forward that not speaking isn't doing him any good.

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[2022-05-01 03:07:25.750] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Kill Brick" (Departure Lounge (105,71,2))
These are the first words Zyb has spoken since his "help maint" call out.

Zybwivcz wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:22 amStunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them into is obviously retaliation.
...
In summation I contend that AwkwardStereo misunderstood and/or misapplied the rule against not retaliating against SEC for doing their job in this instance.
Old Escalation Policy wrote:You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.
This specific line is no longer present in Escalation Policy as it is now (Which changed back in late January), which is what I believe Zyb is directly referencing (and also what I had on the mind when I was looking into this). As it stands, Brick did not kill nor did they maim Zyb, and I misunderstood some details of that from recalling policy from memory (whereupon the thought was they could not resist with out a reason which isn't true). We were both misremembering this text. The spirit of this text carries on into New Escalation Policy with the following line...
New Escalation Policy wrote:As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job.

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[2022-05-01 02:58:30.540] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer)->AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler): A science door. Which is obviously suspicious since it's a likely spot for a cult base or heretic rune or whatever. And it turned out to be a disposals trap which he's tossed me into after stripping my headset, taking me out of the round unless someone passes by. ##There is no fucking way this is anything other than bannable if he's not
We can establish here that according to policy, Zyb is fine to initiate a conflict with Brick. Immediately after that sentence in Escalation Policy...
New Escalation Policy wrote:Whomever you engage is entitled to respond to your actions.
Brick resisted an encounter initiated by another person (Zyb) who had valid reasoning (even if speculative) according to the above, and he did so without using lethal force, exactly as is allowed within Escalation Policy and within line of what was expected in Old Escalation Policy (not killing/maiming).

The only thing Brick did in the 15 minutes Zyb was captive was try to get any rational explanation from a player who, at every possible opportunity, refused to engage with the game and other people at the most basic level. The only items Zyb was relieved of were their baton and bowman headset, both easily replaceable. I do not believe this constitutes as excessively interfering with Zyb's job beyond wasting 15 minutes of their time perpetuated by their own stubbornness to seek OOC retribution for a perceived policy violation and to completely ignore the game during this incident that neither myself or Zyb was recalling correctly.

Do I think an eternity spent in a disposal loop is an appropriate retaliation for this so far? No. But I find it very difficult to consider any other position from Brick's point of view when he knows, almost certainly, that as soon as the cuffs come off Zyb is going to immediately try to kill them for being "valid".

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[2022-05-01 02:51:29.949] scriptis (as Brick Mortar at 120,76,2) // Door's coordinates according to logs, also pictured by Brick since I took so long posting.
 - Using: /datum/wires/airlock/maint [0x21012504]
 - new Wires fancy 1
[2022-05-01 02:51:31.607] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 96.3)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
...
[2022-05-01 03:12:06.063] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Shouty" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:09.509] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I would LOVE to help save the station" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:10.460] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "but alas" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:18.985] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "A certain IDIOT SEC OFFICER" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:22.949] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "has left a HORRIBLE taste in my mouth" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:37.432] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Shouty I was minding my own business CONSTRUCTING A DISPOSALS TRAP FOR ASSISTANTS IN MAINTS" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:44.971] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and before I could even place the first pipe he rushed in and BATONED ME" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))

Brick doesn't understand what he did wrong and I don't blame him. His intent notwithstanding, he spent 15 minutes trying to get an answer from the person who tried to arrest them for an interaction that started because of a 1.6 second observation from Zyb. The only thing Brick had done was hack into a dead end door (coordinates above) that nobody uses because for some reason its a Science Airlock instead of Maintenance like every other door in this corridor. Zyb had a valid enough reason and refused to divulge it to Brick for some reason. Assuming that Brick definitely knew why this happened flies flagrantly in the face of Brick's repeated attempts to in game get an answer, and to explain in ahelps that he doesn't know why a seccie decided to baton him (which I believe given the brevity of the lead up to the initial instigation). Assuming that Brick was doing these multiple maneuvers as a potential shield for OOC retribution is simply not reasonable for anyone to assume, and I would say an argument stemming entirely from a position of bad faith, or one that is originating from a position that does not care to or is unable to understand the position of another player.


Various logs pulled from the following links.
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... nd-182416/
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... attack.log
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 6/game.log
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 6/tgui.log
Spoiler:
edit: a word
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Timberpoes
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:54 pm
Byond Username: Timberpoes

Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Timberpoes » #639506

Zyb, having dove into the logs I have absolutely no clue how any parts of your story line up with the logs so I want you to walk us through what happened.

If my reading of the logs is correct, you weren't actually arresting Scriptis (Brick Mortar). You were chasing Shadowflame909 (Owen Kimple) in a big shoving match through maint for like a solid minute or more and Scriptis doesn't appear to be involved at all except for when you move from (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,87,2)) to (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2)) and shove him once, before continuing your fight with Shadowflame909.

Shortly after you stun Scriptis once and Shadowflame twice, Scriptis shoves you and you pull out a disabler and start disabling Shadowflame909. Scriptis interrupts this to stun you and cuff you.

Mix of https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ame.txt.gz and https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ack.txt.gz combined and sorted by timestamp.
Spoiler:

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[2022-05-01 02:51:08.229] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)  (Research Division (141,92,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:09.038] ADMIN: AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler) created a /obj/item/storage/pill_bottle/maintenance_pill
[2022-05-01 02:51:12.098] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has attacked *no key*/(mouse) with Rapid Pipe Dispenser (RPD) (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 0)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:13.280] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 100)  (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,87,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:13.650] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) (NEWHP: 100)  (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,86,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:14.119] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 100)  (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,88,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:14.610] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)  (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,87,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:24.611] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has attacked [light fixture] with Rapid Pipe Dispenser (RPD) (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:31.607] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 96.3)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:38.044] EMOTE: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) breathes in. (Lesser Aft Maintenance (119,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:43.900] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (119,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:44.020] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (121,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:44.854] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (121,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:46.474] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) (NEWHP: 96.3)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:47.029] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:47.466] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:48.437] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,75,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:50.062] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has stun attacked Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 96.3)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:52.678] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has attacked Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) with the space beer (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:53.751] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (121,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:56.821] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has stun attacked Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:57.579] ATTACK: Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (119,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:51:59.704] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,75,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:00.545] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has stun attacked Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (117,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:01.523] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shoved Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with into Kolton Fischer (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:02.482] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (115,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:03.654] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has grabbed Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) passive grab (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:05.436] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has shoved Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (119,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:06.536] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [floor] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (117,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:06.724] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 96.3)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (117,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:07.468] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [blue air supply pipe] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:07.470] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:07.967] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [plating] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (115,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:08.022] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (115,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:10.225] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has grabbed Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:11.132] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [plating] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (115,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:12.753] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "depart" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,76,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:13.854] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [Genetics Maintenance] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,73,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:13.857] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,73,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:14.012] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has stun attacked Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,75,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:14.739] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [blue air supply pipe] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:14.740] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:15.319] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has fired at [plating] with the disabler beam from Lesser Aft Maintenance (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:15.321] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) has shot Shadowflame909/(Owen Kimple) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:16.863] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has stun attacked Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,73,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:18.758] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:19.522] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "fuck off" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:20.612] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Brick bad" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:21.384] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has stun attacked Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:23.513] ADMIN: AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler) created a /obj/item/storage/pill_bottle/maintenance_pill/full
[2022-05-01 02:52:24.362] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has attempted to handcuff Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:24.399] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Departures" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:25.324] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has grabbed Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) passive grab (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:27.583] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Maint" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
[2022-05-01 02:52:27.685] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has handcuffed Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,72,2))
Shadowflame doesn't appear in anyone's stories yet they appear to be the one who Zyb was arresting. You hit them twice with a stun baton (to once for Scriptis), you fired disablers at them 5 times (to once for Scriptis), you'd been chasing them around for like a solid minute. Can you clear this up for me?
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Zybwivcz » #639552

Timberpoes wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:01 pm Zyb, having dove into the logs I have absolutely no clue how any parts of your story line up with the logs so I want you to walk us through what happened.

If my reading of the logs is correct, you weren't actually arresting Scriptis (Brick Mortar). You were chasing Shadowflame909 (Owen Kimple) in a big shoving match through maint for like a solid minute or more and Scriptis doesn't appear to be involved at all except for when you move from (Aft Starboard Maintenance (146,87,2)) to (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2)) and shove him once, before continuing your fight with Shadowflame909.

Shadowflame doesn't appear in anyone's stories yet they appear to be the one who Zyb was arresting. You hit them twice with a stun baton (to once for Scriptis), you fired disablers at them 5 times (to once for Scriptis), you'd been chasing them around for like a solid minute. Can you clear this up for me?
I was chasing a scientist through maint, I saw Brick hacking the door shown above. It's a locked door to nowhere but a small room with nothing in it off maint, it's obviously a likely possible spot for a heretic/cultist to put down runes and no apparent reason for an engineer to want to hack into. I stop chasing the scientist and proceed to try to arrest Brick while he is in the middle of hacking the door open. Said scientist is still shoving me at this point complicating matters, which contributes to Brick being able to get my baton. Only after does Brick take my baton and come after me with it do I start shooting him with the disabler to try to take him down before he stuns me.
AwkwardStereo wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 6:06 am I'm not taking a single word of this.

I have tried at multiple points before this moment to encourage Zyb to engage in the situation with Brick to amicably resolve things ICly by simply explaining the reason he had already given to me to initiate an arrest against Brick. Brick was ignored at every opportunity presented to Zyb to explain themselves, a clear attempt from Brick at de-escalating the situation in good faith. I've established both that Brick had reason enough to resist the search as FNR, and Zyb as having enough to initiate a search. Zyb has been out of Brick's custody for a fair while now, this is just follow up. Brick had 15 minutes of time and he spent it trying to talk to Zyb. I tried to put forward to Zyb in this message that in the entire time he was arguing with me he could have been attempting to deescalate the situation with Brick by reciprocating his attempts to talk, to explain anything of what they've done. Brick wasn't doing anything else the entire 15 minutes but trying to talk.
Several things here are incorrect. Please point out which lines in the chat logs are clear and unambiguous requests by Brick for an explanation of why he was arrested and offering to release me if that was received. I don't see that now and I didn't at the time it happened either. Nor is the issue that Brick chose to "resist the search". If he had just stolen my baton and run I wouldn't have ahelped. If he had stolen my baton, stunned me, cuffed me and stripped my headset, and then run off after robbing me I wouldn't have ahelped. I ahelped because I got stunned, stripped of comms, dragged into a locked room in maint and cuffed into a pipe where Brick took active steps to keep me from freeing myself whenever I tried for over ten minutes.

I don't see how you've established that Brick had "enough to resist the search as FNR" when he was by his own admission batoned by a SEC officer while hacking into a door with the confessed aim of setting up a disposals trap. By the point this is occuring Brick has already announced over the department radio that he's going to build a trap in maint. I don't think I saw it, but given he's already confessed out loud to the station he's going to do something he knows he can be arrested for and then gets stunned in the midst of hacking into a door to do that thing there just isn't a plausible excuse that he had no idea whatsoever why he was being arrested.

Brick wasn't "doing nothing", he was busy building the disposals trap he says he was there in the first place to build. He was also continuously interrupting my attempts to resist out of the bucklecuff, and buckling me to the pipe when I did manage to get lose. That does not qualify as "de-escalating the situation in good faith" nor does it qualify as "doing nothing".
The entire time I am talking to a wall that lacks any willingness to engage with the world with anything that doesn't go snap, crack, or bang but is clearly content to rant a storm in ahelps.
By this point both Brick and I had been responding to the issue in ahelps. Since it was clearly a subject of admin adjudication I figured it was best to give the admin in question time to resolve it, especially since by continuously rebuckling me to the pipe and ranting about what he was going to do to me it seemed clear there wasn't going to be an IC resolution. If you think there are lines in the chat log that can be clearly interpreted as "I don't think you had any reason to arrest me, please explain it to me and I'll release you" please point me to them.
The only thing Brick did in the 15 minutes Zyb was captive was try to get any rational explanation from a player who, at every possible opportunity, refused to engage with the game and other people at the most basic level. The only items Zyb was relieved of were their baton and bowman headset, both easily replaceable. I do not believe this constitutes as excessively interfering with Zyb's job beyond wasting 15 minutes of their time perpetuated by their own stubbornness to seek OOC retribution for a perceived policy violation and to completely ignore the game during this incident that neither myself or Zyb was recalling correctly.
Again, "doing nothing" would have meant I could have freed myself and walked out. He took active steps to keep me cuffed to a pipe in a room in maint for a quarter hour. All while also building the disposals loop trap. And once again, please point out the lines in the chat log that are an unambiguous question about why he was arrested, rather than the usual tider whining about getting caught by SEC.

Getting stripped of your headset when cuffed to a pipe in maint is a completely different scenario than getting robbed of it in the halls, that should be obvious.

Zyb had a valid enough reason and refused to divulge it to Brick for some reason. Assuming that Brick definitely knew why this happened flies flagrantly in the face of Brick's repeated attempts to in game get an answer, and to explain in ahelps that he doesn't know why a seccie decided to baton him (which I believe given the brevity of the lead up to the initial instigation). Assuming that Brick was doing these multiple maneuvers as a potential shield for OOC retribution is simply not reasonable for anyone to assume, and I would say an argument stemming entirely from a position of bad faith, or one that is originating from a position that does not care to or is unable to understand the position of another player.
Again, please point out to me in the chat logs what a reasonable person would have clearly interpreted as "I don't understand why you tried to arrest me, tell me and I'll release you".


You can't announce over the radio that you're going to do something that SEC absolutely can arrest you for, get stunned by a SEC baton while doing a different but related thing SEC can also arrest you for, then plausibly claim that you had no idea at all why SEC would try to arrest you and that you believed it must have been 'for no reason'.
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Scriptis » #639563

Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:38 am Several things here are incorrect. Please point out which lines in the chat logs are clear and unambiguous requests by Brick for an explanation of why he was arrested and offering to release me if that was received. I don't see that now and I didn't at the time it happened either. Nor is the issue that Brick chose to "resist the search". If he had just stolen my baton and run I wouldn't have ahelped. If he had stolen my baton, stunned me, cuffed me and stripped my headset, and then run off after robbing me I wouldn't have ahelped. I ahelped because I got stunned, stripped of comms, dragged into a locked room in maint and cuffed into a pipe where Brick took active steps to keep me from freeing myself whenever I tried for over ten minutes.
I did not tide and release you because you made it abundantly evident to me that you were going to kill me the moment you got loose.

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[2022-05-01 02:52:20.612] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Brick bad" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
This is a death sentence on Sybil. You have played almost five thousand rounds on TG. You know this. You know you would have round-removed me if you had gotten out of your cuffs at any moment in this situation.
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:38 amI don't see how you've established that Brick had "enough to resist the search as FNR" when he was by his own admission batoned by a SEC officer while hacking into a door with the confessed aim of setting up a disposals trap. By the point this is occuring Brick has already announced over the department radio that he's going to build a trap in maint. I don't think I saw it, but given he's already confessed out loud to the station he's going to do something he knows he can be arrested for and then gets stunned in the midst of hacking into a door to do that thing there just isn't a plausible excuse that he had no idea whatsoever why he was being arrested.
I won't contest that you had a (albeit the single most lame I've ever seen) valid reason to detain me now. Hindsight is 20/20. But at that moment, I was doing something no more severe than cutting through a displaced girder to reach new areas of maints. Getting wordlessly batoned did not fly with me.
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:38 am He was also continuously interrupting my attempts to resist out of the bucklecuff, and buckling me to the pipe when I did manage to get lose. That does not qualify as "de-escalating the situation in good faith" nor does it qualify as "doing nothing".

...

Again, "doing nothing" would have meant I could have freed myself and walked out. He took active steps to keep me cuffed to a pipe in a room in maint for a quarter hour. All while also building the disposals loop trap. And once again, please point out the lines in the chat log that are an unambiguous question about why he was arrested, rather than the usual tider whining about getting caught by SEC.

...


Brick wasn't "doing nothing", he was busy building the disposals trap he says he was there in the first place to build. He was also continuously interrupting my attempts to resist out of the bucklecuff, and buckling me to the pipe when I did manage to get lose. That does not qualify as "de-escalating the situation in good faith" nor does it qualify as "doing nothing".
If I let you go you would continue escalating the situation. Probably by killing me. So I wanted to talk to you instead until we reached a consensus that didn't involve either of us dead. And I can't stress enough that you got an admin involved in the situation in order to buy more time for your security team to arrive or for you to break out of your restraints. I had to constantly shove you to prevent you from breaking out of the restraints while I was responding to or waiting for AwkwardStereo. You used an OOC intervention as an IC get-out-of-jail-free card. You paid the price. And I had to sit right there with you for fifteen minutes too!! Do you think I was having fun having to babysit a security officer who wouldn't talk to anyone but the admins?

You had the power to de-escalate the situation, but you decided to sit there and keep trying to break out of your cuffs to continue retaliating. This is why you were buckled to a pipe for fifteen minutes, because I did not want to continue fighting you until one of us was round-removed. And since you made no conscious effort to de-escalate with me, and given that you kept trying to get out of your restraints, I was forced to assume you were still trying to escalate. And twelve of those fifteen minutes were just me waiting for you to talk to the admin, and waiting for the admin to talk to me.
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:38 am Please point out which lines in the chat logs are clear and unambiguous requests by Brick for an explanation of why he was arrested and offering to release me if that was received.

...

Again, please point out to me in the chat logs what a reasonable person would have clearly interpreted as "I don't understand why you tried to arrest me, tell me and I'll release you".
I asked you at least four times to engage with me. The most clear and directed of these is

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[2022-05-01 02:57:47.012] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Kolton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:57:49.137] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you can come out any time" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 02:57:53.796] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "all you have to do is use your words" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
What did you think I was asking? For your favorite color? I was asking you to make your peace so we could both move on, but instead you just kept typing away in ahelps, wasting everyone's time.

Stereo made the call I wanted you to make the entire time: to just leave and get over it.
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Zybwivcz » #639596

Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am I did not tide and release you because you made it abundantly evident to me that you were going to kill me the moment you got loose.
How? Body language? I didn't say anything remember?
Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am

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[2022-05-01 02:52:20.612] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Brick bad" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
This is a death sentence on Sybil. You have played almost five thousand rounds on TG. You know this. You know you would have round-removed me if you had gotten out of your cuffs at any moment in this situation.
Going to point out neither I nor anybody from SEC even bothered to try and go kill Brick after all this, despite it being a guaranteed death sentence to uncuff someone you've already taken the weapons from.

Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am I won't contest that you had a (albeit the single most lame I've ever seen) valid reason to detain me now. Hindsight is 20/20. But at that moment, I was doing something no more severe than cutting through a displaced girder to reach new areas of maints. Getting wordlessly batoned did not fly with me.
Think that admission is all that's needed, but just to be clear:

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[2022-05-01 02:50:27.579] TCOMMS: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) [Engineering] (spans:  ) "Hey gang'" (language: Galactic Common) (Engineering (159,152,2))
[2022-05-01 02:50:33.044] TCOMMS: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) [Engineering] (spans:  ) "Today I'm going to go trap tiders in maint" (language: Galactic Common) (Engineering (159,152,2))
Don't announce over the radio you're going to do something that SEC can arrest you for, get caught mid-act doing something else SEC can arrest you for, and then tell the admin the bad SEC man arrested you for no raisin!!

I'm also not sure why you're claiming that you were cutting through a girder instead of hacking the door, especially when the door's panel was screwdrivered open. Is there a secret way to cut through girders with wirecutters? Is it related to the secret way to instantly robust someone unarmed when they uncuff you?

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[Security] Shouty Johnson yells, "Mime has stolen the fire axe!!"
[Common] Pan Dan says, "Ai open"
You shove Brick Mortar, knocking him down!
[Common] Pan Dan says, "Ai open please"
x2

Brick Mortar puts the wirecutters into the toolbelt.
Kolton Fischer's Compli-o-Nator: Compliance is in your best interest.
Brick Mortar breathes in.
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Scriptis » #639608

Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 6:47 am
Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am I did not tide and release you because you made it abundantly evident to me that you were going to kill me the moment you got loose.
How? Body language? I didn't say anything remember?
Brick bad! refuses to elaborate, spends next 15 minutes trying to get out of restraints to continue escalating, with no signs of stopping.

Not to mention, of course,

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[2022-05-01 03:07:25.750] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Kill Brick" (Departure Lounge (105,71,2))
Which, you know,

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03:06:19: Reply from-awkwardstereo: He believes it was a random search, which is against policy, and you haven't said a word to the contrary. Again, I'll have him cut you loose but don't fuck with him immediately after you are released.
GREAT JOB listening to the admin, Zyb!
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 6:47 am
Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am

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[2022-05-01 02:52:20.612] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Brick bad" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (112,72,2))
This is a death sentence on Sybil. You have played almost five thousand rounds on TG. You know this. You know you would have round-removed me if you had gotten out of your cuffs at any moment in this situation.
Going to point out neither I nor anybody from SEC even bothered to try and go kill Brick after all this, despite it being a guaranteed death sentence to uncuff someone you've already taken the weapons from.
You didn't arrest me afterwards because an admin told you to.

The rest of security didn't arrest me because i) they had bigger problems to deal with (read: a cult) and ii) I already told them the situation:

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[2022-05-01 02:53:06.224] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "hey gang" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:07.333] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Brick here" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:14.893] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I was making a disposals trap for tiders at science maints" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:17.328] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and kolton walked in" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:20.560] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and started beating me with a baton" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:23.188] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "this is not okay" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:28.115] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and I have detained him for being shit at his job" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:53:39.632] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "understandable!!" (Central Primary Hallway (103,115,2))
This is why I told you nobody was coming to help you. It seems your department didn't have a very high regard for you in the first place. Probably because, you know, you had only said two things to anybody in the entire shift up to that point other than crying for help and and "brick bad:"

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(start of round)
[2022-05-01 02:50:20.149] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "nice" (Command Hallway (100,127,2))
[2022-05-01 02:50:44.700] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "Mothstomper" (Starboard Primary Hallway (156,136,2))

(encounter with brick mortar)
[2022-05-01 02:52:12.753] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) "depart" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (113,76,2))
Bonus: they asked me for help later! And they thought I was angry at Jacob because you never really interacted with your department and nobody knew who you were!!

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[2022-05-01 03:12:02.442] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "Brick please I beg of you to help us save the station!!" (Brig (112,166,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:06.063] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Shouty" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:09.509] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I would LOVE to help save the station" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:10.460] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "but alas" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:18.485] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "do you want me to beat up jacob brick?!!" (Brig (114,166,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:18.985] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "A certain IDIOT SEC OFFICER" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:22.949] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "has left a HORRIBLE taste in my mouth" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:23.422] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "will that garner your forgiveness?!!" (Brig (114,166,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:37.432] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Shouty I was minding my own business CONSTRUCTING A DISPOSALS TRAP FOR ASSISTANTS IN MAINTS" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:44.971] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "and before I could even place the first pipe he rushed in and BATONED ME" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:55.062] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "Oh fuck!!" (Brig (113,166,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:56.417] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "Besides, they have halos" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:12:58.080] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "you're fucked!!" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:13:00.698] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "just enjoy the ride!!" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
[2022-05-01 03:13:04.210] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "we are fucked!!" (Brig (113,166,2))
[2022-05-01 03:13:10.138] SAY: Stairmaster/(Shouty Johnson) "see you in lavaland!!" (Brig (104,169,2))
[2022-05-01 03:13:10.735] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I've got my suicide scrubber ready, do you have yours?" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (120,77,2))
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 6:47 am
Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am I won't contest that you had a (albeit the single most lame I've ever seen) valid reason to detain me now. Hindsight is 20/20. But at that moment, I was doing something no more severe than cutting through a displaced girder to reach new areas of maints. Getting wordlessly batoned did not fly with me.
Think that admission is all that's needed, but just to be clear:

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[2022-05-01 02:50:27.579] TCOMMS: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) [Engineering] (spans:  ) "Hey gang'" (language: Galactic Common) (Engineering (159,152,2))
[2022-05-01 02:50:33.044] TCOMMS: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) [Engineering] (spans:  ) "Today I'm going to go trap tiders in maint" (language: Galactic Common) (Engineering (159,152,2))
Don't announce over the radio you're going to do something that SEC can arrest you for, get caught mid-act doing something else SEC can arrest you for, and then tell the admin the bad SEC man arrested you for no raisin!!
First: no. I was playing the sandbox roleplaying game by doing sandbox things and roleplaying. I would love to have some friends along for my funny maint adventures, so I said what I was going to do. Having looked at your record and an abridged version of a few shifts you've played before opening this complaint, I don't think I want to take your advice on how to play on Sybil. Like, ever.

Second: you already admitted to not having heard this information, so how is it even remotely relevant to complaining about how things were perceived in-character without this information?
Zybwivcz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 6:47 am I'm also not sure why you're claiming that you were cutting through a girder instead of hacking the door, especially when the door's panel was screwdrivered open. Is there a secret way to cut through girders with wirecutters? Is it related to the secret way to instantly robust someone unarmed when they uncuff you?
Can you read?
Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 3:45 am ... no more severe than cutting through a displaced girder to reach new areas of maints
What really kills me here is why you thought that I couldn't resist arrest in the first place. You seem to have been active for the past year without any major breaks, and you had (old) escalation policy explained to you last June in a ban appeal. I can't believe that you've been playing as a security officer multiple times per week on Sybil and actually believed that escalation policy had changed in this way. Something like that is just fundamentally unthinkable. I can't go more than fifteen minutes as a security officer without William Dornan kicking my teeth in and looting my PDA and locking me in maintenance or Alex Barber crushing me in a firelock into crit. If you actually believed this was ahelpable--how on Earth has it taken you this long to complain about anything? This is the root of why I really, honestly, truly think you tried to use an ahelp as a purely IC stopgap: because thinking otherwise is just stupid for somebody as active as you. If you actually had believed this, an admin would've told you that wasn't the case months ago. This entire thing reeks of bad faith.

edit: 2 words
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by AwkwardStereo » #639629

Scriptis wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 7:30 amWhat really kills me here is why you thought that I couldn't resist arrest in the first place.

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[2022-05-01 02:55:50.259] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar)->AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler): this is the most IC of IC issues of all time
One of the issues in internal discussion of this that was raised has been just how far are anyone should reasonably be able to resist an arrest, even one someone perceives as invalid. This discussion reminded me of some of the things I was thinking of at the time that didn't quite stick with me all the way through and something that was inexcusably dropped from my first post after the multiple revisions it went through.
Zyb Ticket wrote:03:11:12: Reply from-awkwardstereo: You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest. You not talking to them escalated things into where we are now. Just explain to him, at any point while you were sitting there wordlessly, that he was hacking into a location that seemed a reasonable enough place to set up for possible wrong doings.
I do still think this part is true. Though, maybe not so much about interfering with an arrest. The discussion I witnessed was enlightening, though I don't think I should be the one to extrapolate on that subject. I think it'd be far better coming from the Headmins since a lot of what I was feeling I wasn't able to really articulate or find a reason for why I was feeling the way I did.

I couldn't muster up the energy to dive back into this dumpster fire after that shift ended, but I was still uncomfortable with some aspects of where you were taking this. I was put off by something, but I can't really articulate how or why. Particularly, Zyb was already on their way to some disposal related fate before I bwoinked you. This is only towards the beginning of Zyb's silent treatment. Even for dealing with ShitSec, this seems far in the neck of the woods of unusual.

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[2022-05-01 02:54:35.881] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "I'm going" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:37.915] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "to do with you" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:40.020] ATTACK: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) has grabbed Zybwivcz/(Kolton Fischer) passive grab (NEWHP: 91.7)  (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:43.896] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "what" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:45.164] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "i was going to do" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))
[2022-05-01 02:54:47.101] SAY: Scriptis/(Brick Mortar) "in here in the first place" (Lesser Aft Maintenance (116,74,2))

[code][2022-05-01 02:55:14.110] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: AwkwardStereo/(Denholm Fiddler)->Scriptis/(Brick Mortar): When you get a moment can you tell me what's going on between you and Koltnon that seccie?
I've called out some times on radio "X is bad!" after getting cuffed by a tider. I've also been released moments after and saying, "Nevermind, I'm good." kept everyone alive. That same benefit of the doubt wasn't extended to Zyb, even if they are seemingly incapable of communicating to the world around them beyond demanding a door be opened... or a person to be killed.

I think the only thing for me to take away from this is to ignore people bullshitting in ahelps and talk to the people that need to be talked to when they need to. Consistently engaging my attention with Zyb and his continued pestering kept the "he had a reason, cut him loose" message from getting to you sooner, which only added to how long Zyb was stuck cuffed to a pipe and how long you needed to deal with him cuffed to a pipe.
Spoiler:
edit: a word
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Mothblocks
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Mothblocks » #639696

I have no interest in letting this drag out longer, and will be closing this complaint, as I do not have any major concerns with how AwkwardStereo handled this situation.

From my point of view, I see the following logical conclusions of play.

1. I see a security officer chasing and firing disablers at someone in maintenance.

In most cases, this is the security officer doing their job. I don't want to interfere with the arrest, so I keep my distance.

2. While keeping my distance, the security officer begins to stun baton me.

The only thing I can think of as my crime is hacking into a door in maintenance that leads to absolutely nowhere. With that in mind, and after seeing the random disabling, plus the security officer stop his pursuit on someone who I previously suspected was a criminal, now the thought of an antagonist comes to my mind.

With this information, I can begin an escalation. I certainly don't have enough information to maim or similar, but I certainly can start figuring out what the hell is going on.

3. I stun baton the security officer, and try to get them into a position where I can gather intel.

The moment I'm do this, the sec officer yells that I'm Bad over radio.

After seeing this, AND being victim to what appears to be a fairly baseless arrest, AND seeing them already trying to arrest someone else, AND seemingly completely stop their pursuit, I very much have no reason to trust in this security officer.

4. I demand to know what the meaning of all this is. Several, SEVERAL, times.

...and I get absolutely no response.

All my steps prior have gotten me into a position where I have an extremely suspicious security officer, who is refusing my countless requests to give me any explanation.

And so why the hell would I let them go without an admin telling me to, with the assumption that they have been told to keep their distance from me? The moment I do, they will absolutely arrest/kill me, as part of the escalation.

Scriptis gave you countless opportunities to explain yourself. You might have been in an adminhelp, that's fine, but I still have no problem with the escalation.
03:20:48: Reply from-awkwardstereo: In truth, probably nothing. But I don't fault him for resisting what he perceived as a FNR arrest. Especially considering at every opportunity he tried to engage with you to deescalate the situation you said absolutely nothing but instead put an infinite more amount of effort into ahelping the situation (which I don't mean to sound like putting blame on you, but I am having to spend a lot more time with you than I would like instead of talking with Brick).
I completely agree with this response from AwkwardStereo.

I have one nitpick:
03:11:12: Reply from-awkwardstereo: You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest.
From the ticket to Scriptis, it doesn't look like AwkwardStereo actually did this, but I don't have any concerns other than that.

Upholding a complaint must be unanimous, and thus my own personal dissent is enough. Other head admins may make a follow up post with their own thoughts if they wish, but that will only serve as extra commentary to the ban, and does not change the ruling.
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Re: [AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescala

Post by Timberpoes » #639759

Hey Zyb, the team has read your concerns and we've agreed the following joined response to the points you raised in this ruling review.
You can't retaliate against SEC for doing their job and arresting you.

...

If the new server rule is that retaliating against SEC for valid arrests is to be handled as an IC issue, then change it to say that.

...

As it stands the rule is that escalation policy doesn't let you retaliate against SEC for valid arrests, which is what even AS seems to concur happened, and that it's not just an IC issue but something to be handled by admins. If that remains the case then admins should enforce the rule.
We looked into the rules about resisting/retaliating against arrests as a non-antag and found that there's really not much on it written down. Whatever rule or policy you think there was about resisting arrests or retaliating against sec for arrests in the past has long since been lost to the Wiki revision history or archives. There's a chance that you're still thinking of old escalation policy which had the following entry: "You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons."

As a result, we took the time to think about how the admin team generally handles these scenarios and will add the following to Sec Policy:
6. Players have more reason to resist arrests they don't understand the reason for.
When dealing with minor crimes where there are no realistic threats present, communicating the intent and the reason for an arrest to the player lowers confusion and makes it less likely a non-antag player may validly resist the arrest.
Which means that yes, there are scenarios where resisting an arrest may be allowed by the rules. The less a player understands you intend to arrest them and why you're arresting them, the more likely it will be that they will have a good reason for resisting the arrest. SS13 is a game based around incomplete information and there are scenarios where security can be antagonists such as changelings, traitors under chameleon disguise, obssessed, cult converts, etc. Taking steps not to act like an antag as security will go a long way to players not treating you like one when you try to arrest them.

To complement this, the following will been given its own section in the main rules near escalation policy:
Non-Antags Resisting Arrest
Non-antags should not harmfully resist or retaliate against valid arrests, but do not have to simply give up and allow the arrest to happen. They may instead non-harmfully escape or avoid the arresting officer in the spirit of the game.

If an arrest is not obviously valid, it follows standard escalation. Resisting or retaliating against arrests without good reason may break Escalation Policy and be handled administratively. Non-antag players may lose any OOC and IC protections if they choose this path and should consider ahelping if they believe they did nothing to warrant being arrested.

In resisting arrest, non-antags should not loot officers and should not detain or incapacitate officers any longer than is necessary to escape or explain themselves.
We do not expect this to change much. We believe this broadly covers how many of the admin team currently handle situations where non-antags resist arrest and how many players currently approach problems too.
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