[AwkwardStereo] Disagreements over the meaning of SEC retaliation policy and the meaning of 'escalate' and 'deescalate'
Posted: Sun May 01, 2022 4:22 am
When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Sybil
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Zybwivcz / Kolton Fischer
Admin: AwkwardStereo
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 182416
Detailed summary:
Start of the round. I'm a SEC officer. I come across Brick Mortar, an engineer, in maintenance near departures in the act of hacking into a sci department door that opens up into a small enclosed room. Since he's in the middle of trying to hack his way in to a room he doesn't have access to, and because it makes a good spot for cult bases, heretic runes and the like, I start to arrest him by stunning him with my baton. Brick manages to get my baton and stun me before dragging me into a room in maint.
Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them into is obviously retaliation.
Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them does not lend itself to the idea that simply asking IC to be let go is going to be productive.
A.S. contends that I escalated the situation by doing nothing. I contend that doing nothing is not a form of escalation.
A.S. contends that Brick tried to deescalate as he "clearly wasn't doing anything". I contend that Brick's actions constitute doing something.
In summation I contend that AwkwardStereo misunderstood and/or misapplied the rule against not retaliating against SEC for doing their job in this instance.
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Zybwivcz / Kolton Fischer
Admin: AwkwardStereo
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 182416
Detailed summary:
Start of the round. I'm a SEC officer. I come across Brick Mortar, an engineer, in maintenance near departures in the act of hacking into a sci department door that opens up into a small enclosed room. Since he's in the middle of trying to hack his way in to a room he doesn't have access to, and because it makes a good spot for cult bases, heretic runes and the like, I start to arrest him by stunning him with my baton. Brick manages to get my baton and stun me before dragging me into a room in maint.
He drags me into a room in maint, locks the door, strips my headset when I try to call for help, and explains he was engaging in some random griefing by creating a disposals loop.Brick Mortar stuns you with the stun baton!
x2
Brick Mortar puts the stun baton into the industrial satchel.
x2
Your muscles seize, making you collapse!
You're too exhausted to keep going...
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "Fuck off"
[Security] Kolton Fischer stammers, "B-Br-ric-ck-k b-bad-d"
Kolton Fischer whispers, "B-Br-ric-ck-k b-bad-d"
Brick Mortar stuns you with the stun baton!
Brick Mortar puts the stun baton into the industrial satchel.
Since this is clearly antag behavior, but the way Brick is describing his actions makes him sound like he's just retaliating for getting interrupted in the middle of some tiding, I ahelp. AwkwardStereo responds. Meanwhile Brick has cuffed me to a pipe in a locked room in maint while continuing to build a disposals loop trap:[Security] Kolton Fischer stammers, "M-Main-n"
Kolton Fischer whispers, "M-Main-n"
Brick Mortar handcuffs you.
Brick Mortar throws the cable coil.
Brick Mortar puts the screwdriver into the toolbelt.
You're restrained! You can't move!
You hear a click from the bottom of the door.
Brick Mortar puts the wirecutters into the toolbelt.
Kolton Fischer attempts to remove the cable restraints!
You attempt to remove the cable restraints... (This will take around 30 seconds and you need to stand still.)
Brick Mortar puts the screwdriver into the toolbelt.
Brick Mortar says, "Kolton"
Brick Mortar says, "I was"
[Security] Shouty Johnson yells, "AI let me out of bridge so I can render aid, please!!"
Brick Mortar says, "Building a disposals trap"
After a bunch of back and forth with AwkwardStereo I get cut lose after about a quarter of an hour of being cuffed to a pipe without comms in maint. AwkwardStereo eventually tells him to let me go, and tells me to not do anything to Brick:Brick Mortar says, "That inaction is what got you"
Brick Mortar says, "Into this situation"
Brick Mortar says, "There is nobody coming to rescue you"
You're shoved by Brick Mortar!
Brick Mortar says, "Do you understand"
Brick Mortar says, "I'm going"
You unbuckle yourself from the omni pipe.
Kolton Fischer attempts to remove the cable restraints!
You attempt to remove the cable restraints... (This will take around 30 seconds and you need to stand still.)
Brick Mortar says, "To do with you"
Brick Mortar grabs you passively!
You fail to remove the cable restraints!
Brick Mortar buckles you to the omni pipe!
Brick Mortar says, "What"
Brick Mortar says, "I was going to do"
Brick Mortar says, "In here in the first place"
At issue, and the source of my disagreement with AwkwardStereo, is that this was not a violation of the rule against retaliating against SEC for valid arrests. AwkwardStereo conceded I had a valid reason to arrest Brick. AwkwardStereo claims that Brick says he believed he was getting arrested for no reason whatsoever, despite being stunned literally standing in front of a door hacking it open and admitting repeatedly he was doing so for no reason other than to set up a disposals loop to grief with. AwkwardStereo seems to buy this claim, and insists that I was at fault for not trying to explain to Brick IC why I arrested him after he's stunned me, cuffed me, stripped me, and buckled me to a pipe in maint. These parts of my back and forth with him lay out the issue, so I'll just quote them:Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: I'll ask him to cut you loose, just don't fuck with him immediately after he cuts you loose.
To summarize: As A.S. admits, I had a valid reason to arrest Brick. You can't retaliate against SEC for doing their job and arresting you. Since I attempted to arrest Brick while he was literally in the act of hacking into a door as part of a self-confessed plan to set up a pointless griefing sort of disposals loop trap, it's not plausible that he thought he was being arrested "for no reason", nor does the IC chat show any evidence that was his belief at the time nor would it have been grounds for his actions even if he had believed it.PM to-Admins: Has there been a change to the policy that you can't attack SEC just for doing their job? Is arresting someone trying to break into a room in maint for no discernable legitimate reason not part of SEC's job? Explain what I'm missing here.
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: He believes it was a random search, which is against policy, and you haven't said a word to the contrary. Again, I'll have him cut you loose but don't fuck with him immediately after you are released.
PM to-Admins: Is there a situation where stripping someone of comms and cuffing them in maint for a quarter hour is acceptable when the initial "offense" is stunbatonning them? That sort of bullshit wouldn't be proportionate if it had been an assistant doing it.
PM to-Admins: Under what possible interpretation of any rule is it ok to take someone out of the round because they won't talk to you?
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: You weren't removed from the round, though I will admit being GBJ'd for 15 minutes is stupid as shit and I do have plans to talk to Brick about interferring with sec in pursuit of a valid arrest. You not talking to them escalated things into where we are now. Just explain to him, at any point while you were sitting there wordlessly, that he was hacking into a location that seemed a reasonable enough place to set up for possible wrong doings.
PM to-Admins: How can literally doing nothing be escalation? He was hacking into a door to set up a trap, by his own admission it wasn't an innocent act.
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: Brick believed the search was a FNR one, which would have been against policy for you. That wasn't the case, but you never explained that to Brick, who clearly wasn't doing anything else but asking you to speak to see what the deal was.
PM to-Admins: He stunned me, dragged me into a room in maint, welded the door shut, stripped me of my headset, and cuffed me to a pipe. How is that not "doing anything"?
PM to-Admins: If he did honestly think it was a random search, which is ridiculous enough given he was by his own admission there to set up some random griefy trap, what stops him from asking me why I arrested him without stunning me, stripping me, and trapping me in maint?
Admin PM from-AwkwardStereo: In truth, probably nothing. But I don't fault him for resisting what he perceived as a FNR arrest. Especially considering at every opportunity he tried to engage with you to deescalate the situation you said absolutely nothing but instead put an infinite more amount of effort into ahelping the situation (which I don't mean to sound like putting blame on you, but I am having to spend a lot more time with you than I would like instead of talking with Brick).
PM to-Admins: Being arrested while trying to hack a door cannot reasonably be said to be a reason to suspect you're being arrested FNR. Being arrested FNR is not an excuse to baton the sec, strip their headset, and trap them in maint. How the hell is that remotely characterized as 'deescalating the situation'?
PM to-Admins: If he had wanted to deescalate even for a second you know what he could have done? He could have stopped doing that. He didn't for a quarter hour.
PM to-Admins: The reason I ahelped in the first place because the conduct was either being carried out by an antag in which case I was screwed regardless, or so obviously an egregious violation of server rules that an ahelp was justified.
Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them into is obviously retaliation.
Stunning a SEC officer, stripping them of their headset when they call for help, dragging them into maint into a locked room and cuffing them to a pipe and keeping them there for a quarter of an hour while you set up a disposals trap to throw them does not lend itself to the idea that simply asking IC to be let go is going to be productive.
A.S. contends that I escalated the situation by doing nothing. I contend that doing nothing is not a form of escalation.
A.S. contends that Brick tried to deescalate as he "clearly wasn't doing anything". I contend that Brick's actions constitute doing something.
In summation I contend that AwkwardStereo misunderstood and/or misapplied the rule against not retaliating against SEC for doing their job in this instance.