complaint about Nianjiilical negligence

[Nope22]

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Sybil

Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Nope22

Admin: NianJilican

ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE:188872
Detailed summary: Round starts, I get unluckily picked for HOS, there's one other security officer, the warden, equip up get stuff ready when the absolute worst thing you can hear comes over the radio. "No security raid armory." Usually it could be considered a joke, not this time as *7-8* show up outside of Tram station brig I tell them to get loss, 1-2 starts responding by trying to bash the windows down, I respond in due kind of lethals to get them to fuck off because there's no way I can be expected to somehow take out all of them all by myself with a stun baton.

Flash forward a few minutes, the AI lets them into the main area of the Brig, I have to retreat back to the security office, the 5 min grey tidder shittery continues with them using the justification I shot at the raging mob breaking into as more evidence to keep going into the armory.

I die, eventually because of course I would, I however escape being stripped of everything by a medical cyborg and revived and here is where the complaint comes in, One of the grey shitters found himself on the wrong end of the gun mid looting security office and he dies to the warden, I throw him into a locker and shove it into the back of the armoury, the guy admin help and we go back and forth, suffice to say despite the Mob appearing out of the blue with no provocation and this certain player being one of the ring leaders in starting it thought I wronged him after he efficiently ruined security and my round before the threat level assessment even came in. Nianjiilica reasoned that because he died it was an IC issue and thus should not be punished simply because he died and that was "Punishment enough." It was just a slap in the face with how much grief they caused while breaking server rules and yet not be punished for it because they got sent to the ghost realm.

[nianjiilical]

im posting this just before going to bed so sorry if its a bit incoherent but, to lay out the series of events as i saw it

-at the start of the round a bunch of assistants decide to tide the brig, they get in thanks to the ai
-you, the hos, start firing lethals at them. this is fair imo, they were tiding the brig
-as a joke i send down a "greytide dispersal device" which is just a grenade full of bees, to my credit it does scare off the tide
-you die at some point, possibly due to the bees from the warden opening the door
-you get revived and come back
-one assistant is in the brig, in the area where the sec gear is, the warden kills him on the spot. again, this is fair i think, he was in the brig with the hos gun
-you throw him in a locker, he ahelps about being round removed, i talk to you both about it

first: the only part of your conduct that i disagree with was throwing him in a locker to be round removed. everything else that happened is, imo, fair game for assistants tiding into the brig, especially the more secure back sections. i made it clear that i wasn't noting or banning you over it, just that i think you should try to avoid round removing people in the future unless you're 100% sure they're antags

secondly, and more relevant: the main reason i chose not to actively note or ban the assistant was because, for better or for worse, tgstation (especially the LRP servers) have some expectation of a limited degree of "fuck around and find out" when it comes to tiders. i was watching for most of the initial brig raid and none of the tiders made any real attempt to do much besides jeer at you until you shot harm lasers at them. again, this is entirely within your right, but the fact that it led to them continuing to try to bust up the windows and reach you, followed by you lasering at them more, is a clear case of escalation that fits IC. had the rest of the assistants backed off, that would have been the end of the conflict, but one of them stayed in the brig and was justifiably executed by the warden

had the assistants successfully reached you and killed you for no reason, that probably would have been note/banworthy for them, but from what i saw your death was due to the bees (which, admittedly, is my fault). whenever assistants choose to tide the brig, they're accepting the fact that security can kill their asses for it, and you did so, which to me is a fair ending to what was ultimate an ic conflict between bored troublemakers and an understaffed security department

tl;dr: i didnt note or ban you because you were entirely justified in killing them, i didn't note or ban them because their actions didnt go beyond what could be expected of an IC tide and they got their shit lasered in for it

[Nope22]

This guy went out of this way, round start either as an antag which means rule 4 kicks in and thus nothing is bad about what happens to him, or he isn't and acts like an antag regardless 5 minutes into the round because he's bored, he's a grey shitter or perhaps whatever is going through his head that he just wants to fuck with people to the extreme for no reason. This guy though no fault of his own decision to do this, he made the decision to round up other people and form the mob to break into the armoury and as a result, people died for it, namely me but he isn't punished for it because I chose to stuff him into a locker after he died because what is that if not antagonist behaviour? Why would I revive him just so he would do it all over again?

I told them to back off from the widows or I would fire, they started bashing it down there is no other choice for the only officer to fire lethally to get them to go away,if I didn't they would have broken in anyway, using the justification "The lone officer isn't attempting to non-lethally detain the giant mob breaking into security, Grey tide harder." when somebody admin helps like this after getting murked and whining about it do they not they get slapped for ban-baiting despite being 100% in the wrong as they were 100% the cause of it? It's just annoying to see the guy who efficiently prevented me from playing having the ability to admin help to try and weasel himself out of it given his pathetic excuses in dead chat and nothing done to help curb that behaviour.

[Nope22]

I believe upon looking this over again that I made this in error, you were understanding and communicative and understanding, I simply don't think I addressed what my issue was in the correct terms was, I understand the whole fuck around and find out part perfectly well and simply found the issue of this player doing it and then having the gall to admin help and put me on the stand to defend my self from a possible note or ban, I think the term is ban-baiting, I'm really not too sure just that I personally felt like it was completely unfair for a person to be able to do then also have the ability to admin help because his shittery didn't work out for him and while I would have liked something to come of it, for the sake of fairness, a admin complaint isn't the way to go nor would I believe end in a satisfactory result, you can close this.

[Timberpoes]

Speaking individually, so this isn't a headmin team ruling, there clearly wasn't anything actionable here - Either in the ticket or in how the scenario was handled or how the admins ruled.

I'd like to thank Nope22 for taking the time to step back and re-assess their complaint with a clearer perspective.

I hope to provide some closure Nope22 as a returning favour, by way of some general closing remarks, so that perhaps "I would have liked something to come of it" can still happen. You know. Abusing my position as headmin to soapbox a little.

Administratively, the line between "allowable self-antag, IC issue" and "unallowable self-antag, administrative issue" is razor thin. Here are some examples of recent bans related to brig tiding:

Trashed all the windows in brig, into armory and security storage for no reason as a non antag. "For funny and gtide". Noted this is inappropriate to self antag yet alone trash a department as a non antag. Player has a very strong history of self antag in a short time frame ; cautioned player they're inviting permaban if they continue this trend (escalated to 3 days ban because of history).

As a non-antag in a round with no security, saw a few people attacking the brig and decided to join in, with a fire axe, completely wrecking the windows and breaking into the armory, opening up for everyone, only reason being "there was no security" let's not do this again

Broke into the brig, stole a locker, depressurised the area and was apprehended and executed. Then ahelped it. Banbaiting is against the rules, if you act like an antag you get treated like one.

There are of course many other instances where the tider's brig-related conduct went too far into self-antagonism but was handled via note instead of ban.

The admin team should always be mindful of the fact that the players supposed to be antagonising the station are antagonists. Non-antagonists may choose to act like antagonists in the spirit of SS13 as a game, but that always has its limits.

When done for no or poor reason, or when there is a good reason but it's not obvious and not communicated to the sec team, some actions are indistinguishable from the actions of a genuine antagonist. Players choosing to act in the scenario from this incident willingly bring themselves into the scope of Rule 4, "... non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag" as well as Sec Policy Precedent 5, "Lethal force may be used on a mob of players trying to force entry into the brig."

Once this set of facts have been established, admins should be cautious about pressing the matter further and putting the sec player on the defensive unless a full antag would have been able to validly ahelp the situation. (Hello MRP!)

Act like an antag, get treated like an antag. Enjoy spending the rest of the shift in spectator mode if you get dunked for it. Afterall, there is an easy and universal solution to not getting round removed for tiding into the brig or stealing items from the brig that most players have figured out already. Just don't tide into the brig or steal from the brig.

I'm leaving this open a few days incase anyone else from the headmin team or our headmin elect wants to comment as well, but I just wanted to give you a little empathy for the position you get placed in as a sec officer when these scenarios play out in practice, and acknowledging I understand why you made the complaint.

[nianjiilical]

i really do appreciate your followup post, and yeah i can definitely see why it might come off as banbaiting

i also want to be transparent and say that it was 2am my time and both parties involved were very heated in simultaneous ahelps so i was somewhat overwhelmed, thats on me and i definitely need to get better at making myself log off when my brain is too slow to properly be adminning

overall im sorry for the situation overall and ill definitely try to be both clearer and a little more responsible in when i take on major tickets