[Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

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[Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by kieth4 » #658222

I was told to take this here because keyholders are a part of the admin infrastructure so this should get dealt with a complaint.

One thing that really makes tg stand out from other servers is admin accountability, if you don't like an admin's conduct you're free to make a complaint and it will get dealt with. (hopefully) The question in play here is, what responsibility do keyholders have to adhere to?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71769

This was then left without supervision for 3(?) hours I believe until an unrelated party saw people complaining and came on to fix it.

If an admin did some grief event like this there is a high likelihood that they would get spoken to and it would get dealt with but what should we as the players do to hold keyholders accountable? Why are they allowed to merge untested dogshit pr's who's only goal is to grief the playerbase and destroy any goodwill that was held? I'm not exactly sure who I should even be complaining to here but there need to be at least some rules in place in governing how they act with these things as opposed to giving them complete freedom to do whatever they want with 0 accountability.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by Timberpoes » #658225

From the PR, it was testmerged in the following rounds:
- 195751 @ 2022-12-06T12:28:27 (https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-195751/)
- 195748 @ 2022-12-06T11:30:16 (https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-195748/)
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by Vekter » #658245

Round 195751 was on Terry, duration of 57:33.
Round 195748 was also Terry, duration of 1:53:20.

So that does match your time of around three hours.

E: Timberpoes gave better info than I was able to given my current schedule. I removed the info I posted in lieu of his.
Last edited by Vekter on Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by Timberpoes » #658247

Source (Currently, we've now asked MSO to move them public) admin-only death logs filtered to only brain damage deaths on z-levels that aren't 1 (i.e. non-Centcom deaths):
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... eaths.html
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... eaths.html

I cannot be bothered to filter which deaths were players and which were not.

Round 195748
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

09:42:09 [mob_3091] (117,129,2) || Neeti-Paduxi has been killed by brain damage.
10:02:07 [mob_43] (123,128,2) || Pun Pun XXII has been killed by brain damage.
10:35:13 [mob_3329] (76,134,2) || Julianne Pycroft has been killed by brain damage.
10:35:23 [mob_3484] (78,132,2) || Huron Hammond has been killed by brain damage.
10:44:32 [mob_3574] (121,101,2) || Y`shej has been killed by brain damage.
Round 195751
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

11:36:09 [mob_3085] (111,128,2) || Maks Glen has been killed by brain damage.
11:42:47 [mob_3085] (113,104,2) || Maks Glen has been killed by brain damage.
11:50:16 [mob_3080] (120,100,2) || Axle Brady has been killed by brain damage.
11:54:18 [mob_3141] (115,100,2) || Mr Tickles has been killed by brain damage.
11:55:13 [mob_3088] (86,134,2) || Jesite Boxcutter has been killed by brain damage.
11:55:25 [mob_3085] (87,133,2) || Maks Glen has been killed by brain damage.
11:57:55 [mob_35] (86,120,2) || the monkey (435) has been killed by brain damage.
11:58:37 [mob_3140] (79,139,2) || Ty Baxter has been killed by brain damage.
11:59:37 [mob_34] (82,118,2) || the monkey (589) has been killed by brain damage.
11:59:54 [mob_33] (84,121,2) || the monkey (79) has been killed by brain damage.
12:00:08 [mob_36] (86,120,2) || the monkey (120) has been killed by brain damage.
12:00:14 [mob_32] (86,123,2) || the monkey (102) has been killed by brain damage.
12:03:54 [mob_55] (147,147,2) || Gracie Tireman has been killed by brain damage.
12:03:58 [mob_3080] (83,112,2) || Unknown has been killed by brain damage.
12:05:44 [mob_3085] (102,102,2) || Maks Glen has been killed by brain damage.
12:06:35 [mob_3084] (83,136,2) || Velvet Pinkawalt has been killed by brain damage.
12:07:01 [mob_3088] (136,105,2) || Jesite Boxcutter has been killed by brain damage.
12:07:21 [mob_3086] (77,142,2) || Brandon M. Ling has been killed by brain damage.
12:07:23 [mob_3237] (93,136,2) || Sam Kolins has been killed by brain damage.
12:10:12 [mob_3078] (143,125,2) || Caellach Albrecht has been killed by brain damage.
12:10:16 [mob_3213] (142,129,2) || Honda Mothra has been killed by brain damage.
12:16:38 [mob_3420] (155,93,2) || Touch-The-Snow has been killed by brain damage.
12:19:05 [mob_3221] (92,120,2) || Alina Genacidarmanovna (as Brandon M. Ling) has been killed by brain damage.
12:20:25 [mob_3345] (163,92,2) || Steven Sneake has been killed by brain damage.
12:22:01 [mob_3423] (139,141,2) || Moffer White has been killed by brain damage.
12:22:19 [mob_3074] (152,98,2) || Joe Nutter has been killed by brain damage.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by oranges » #658255

kieth4 wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:34 pm I was told to take this here because keyholders are a part of the admin infrastructure so this should get dealt with a complaint.

One thing that really makes tg stand out from other servers is admin accountability, if you don't like an admin's conduct you're free to make a complaint and it will get dealt with. (hopefully) The question in play here is, what responsibility do keyholders have to adhere to?

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71769

This was then left without supervision for 3(?) hours I believe until an unrelated party saw people complaining and came on to fix it.

If an admin did some grief event like this there is a high likelihood that they would get spoken to and it would get dealt with but what should we as the players do to hold keyholders accountable? Why are they allowed to merge untested dogshit pr's who's only goal is to grief the playerbase and destroy any goodwill that was held? I'm not exactly sure who I should even be complaining to here but there need to be at least some rules in place in governing how they act with these things as opposed to giving them complete freedom to do whatever they want with 0 accountability.
I asked potatoe to merge this pr to a server for a period, so I will assume this is directed at me, The argument you're talking about was goof with a spriter, it has nothing to do with the PR being test merged. I test merged it because I think it's interesting to consider what the game might play like if there was more lethality to weaponry, something we have considered before, also I thought it would be a novel change that people would enjoy for a few rounds before another keyholder removed it. Which is exactly what happened.

Couple of things to consider

1) what you consider untested dogshit pr's who's only goal is to grief the playerbase is another persons legitimate combat test, or at the very least, an interesting enough departure from standard ss13 mechanics as to be a novel test.
2) code related changes have a much greater potential to disrupt the round and as such can be expected to generate a higher than normal ratio of displeasure , consider e.g cloning removal, many would argue that this was untested dogshit that the only goal was to grief the playerbase, but it still had enough value to be merged despite objections, also consider stuff like halloween and xmas events, which can totally disrupt rounds.
3) please remember you have no specific right to a certain ss13 experience, the host, headadmins and headcoders are the final determiners of what ss13 on tgstation is, as such, you don't actually have the right to prevent us from changing your experience, you are of course always allowed to complain about that, and you can also choose to vote with your feet and play elsewhere, but please keep that in mind.
4) there are at minimum 4 different servers you can enjoy play experience on and 3 of them didn't have the change test merged, yes, I will concede lag is a concern, but it's playable for the few hours that a test merge might be active.
5) test merges are an important part of how we experiment with changes to gain feedback on them before any attempt to try a full merge, so this mechanism is required, in this case at least there was never an intent to merge the PR, so this is a less relevant point.
6) at no point during this did you ping the keyholder role to ask them to remove this PR, so you did not attempt to engage with any of the mechanisms by which you can interact with the team and provide that feedback before going straight for an admin complaint to ask us to define a bunch of rules for something you have no right of changing.

Based on these considerations above, I'd consider this complaint mostly inactionable, we are within our rights to try something we think might be funny or different, keyholders are allowed to leave it on the servers for as long or as little as required to gather feedback for it. You are within your rights to complain about it, but you didn't attempt to engage with the appropriate stakeholders before doing so. This entire thing could have been resolved if you just pinged keyholder to ask them to remove it, or if anyone who was impacted asked.

I appreciate it upset you, and it's your right to be upset, however it doesn't outweigh the benefits of us testing novel experiences on ss13 for a few hours or even days, so in summary, sorry? next time just use your words and ping keyholders to ask it to be removed.

Leaving the complaint open for MSO to add any closing words or disagreements he might have with my viewpoint.
Last edited by oranges on Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by oranges » #658257

Also side note if MSO would let all the maintainers be keyholders again, coverage would be less of an issue.

with only a few active ones, it's not even plausible we would be capable of covering every test merge all the time.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by kieth4 » #658272

1) what you consider untested dogshit pr's who's only goal is to grief the playerbase is another persons legitimate combat test, or at the very least, an interesting enough departure from standard ss13 mechanics as to be a novel test.
I don't disagree, this absolutely could have been a cool legitimate combat test. However, take a look at the code. It was cobbled together in 5 minutes and untested with the sole purpose of proving a point. I think it's incredibly dishonest to pretend that this was a good-faith combat test when it was simply an "I told you so" pr with 0 afterthought. It was a bad faith grief pr to prove a point.
2) code related changes have a much greater potential to disrupt the round and as such can be expected to generate a higher than normal ratio of displeasure , consider e.g cloning removal, many would argue that this was untested dogshit that the only goal was to grief the playerbase, but it still had enough value to be merged despite objections, also consider stuff like halloween and xmas events, which can totally disrupt rounds.
Once again, I don't particularly disagree. I don't care about the displeasure ratio my issue lays in the fact that there's absolutely 0 respect for the playerbase. Cloning isn't a good example because it wasn't an afterthought cobbled up in 30 seconds it took a long time and had heavy amounts of planning behind it. This is just some random, untested shit. You were told "hey I'm doing this as a complete joke" and then decided that it was good to merge.
3) please remember you have no specific right to a certain ss13 experience, the host, headadmins and headcoders are the final determiners of what ss13 on tgstation is, as such, you don't actually have the right to prevent us from changing your experience, you are of course always allowed to complain about that, and you can also choose to vote with your feet and play elsewhere, but please keep that in mind.
This is once again incredibly disrespectful to the player base and even the admins of this server. This shouldn't apply here because it was a completely broken feature that was not the intended experience and it ended up getting un-tmed by an admin. Absolutely change the game! Keep it evolving that isn't an issue, it becomes an issue when you start merging untested discord argument prs and try to present it as a combat test.
4) there are at minimum 4 different servers you can enjoy play experience on and 3 of them didn't have the change test merged, yes, I will concede lag is a concern, but it's playable for the few hours that a test merge might be active.

5) test merges are an important part of how we experiment with changes to gain feedback on them before any attempt to try a full merge, so this mechanism is required, in this case at least there was never an intent to merge the PR, so this is a less relevant point.
Taking 000.1% care would be nice!


If an admin abused with the tools they had at hand they would be de-admined or at the very least warned. It's frustrating in the experience at least when a coder is able to make a shitty discord argument pr in 5 minutes and get it test merged with no repercussions.
6) at no point during this did you ping the keyholder role to ask them to remove this PR, so you did not attempt to engage with any of the mechanisms by which you can interact with the team and provide that feedback before going straight for an admin complaint to ask us to define a bunch of rules for something you have no right of changing.
I appreciate this response. You're not wrong with the fact that we probably could've avoided issues if keyholders were engaged and all but I think everyone is so used to being told to fuck off whenever they have complaints with merges/tms this wasn't even a thought.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by kieth4 » #658273

If this isn't actionable feel free to close it. No point speaking on the forums when I can just speak about it in discord.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by oranges » #658281

There's a lot more covered that we have said in discord but at the end of the day, i stand by test merging the PR for the 2 rounds it was merged, a key holder removed it when they noticed complaints so everything about the system worked as it was intended.

I think it was a funny idea, and I think perhaps if it had even more polish, you probably would have agreed and would have wanted it in more rounds so you could try it yourself.

Some people had fun trying out a different experience for 2 rounds, some others obviously didn't, although none of them have yet to step forward to make themselves known(I'm assuming based on a keyholder noticing people talking about it), but at the end of all that, nobody was harmed, people were able to get it removed without even really trying.

Again, sorry that you're upset, but I don't think anything needs to change about how test merges work or how the keyholders do them.

I believe that we're entitled, from time to time, to try out something funny and different, and that's okay.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by kieth4 » #658300

After the discord conversation it's fine to close this.
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Re: [Unkown keyholder] - Test merging a dogshit pr for a discord argument (?)

Post by Timberpoes » #658301

Requested to close this directly via Discord. Happy to see it all hashed out with civility.
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