[Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Locked
Zybwivcz
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Byond Username: Zybwivcz

[Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Zybwivcz » #662280

When and where this incident occurred: Sybil
Byond account and character name: Zybwivcz / Kellen Black
Admin: Rageguy505
Round ID: 198491

I'm the RD. Standing in the brig on icestation. Franchesca Kafka (diegospartan) the HoP comes in, batons me. I'm wearing the teleport armor. I'm teleported outside into the river where I quickly die.

My corpse is visible from the brig. The HoP sees where my corpse is. He stops to take a photo of it. He makes zero effort at all to revive me. I am not revived. I am removed from the round.

Rageguy505 says that's fine, because I chose to wear the teleport armor. I say that killing someone you had zero reason to kill obligates you to make at least some effort to revive them.
If a conflict leads to violence and either participant is incapacitated, the standing participant is expected to make an effort to treat the other, unless they have reason to believe the other was an antagonist
The HoP didn't think I was an antag. Didn't even have a valid reason to start a conflict. But he did anyway and it ended with me dead in the plasma. He had to "make an effort" to treat me. He did absolutely nothing. Rageguy says he announced it over the radio, which is good enough. Here's what he said:

Code: Select all

[2023-01-19 02:53:01.115] SAY: 02:53:01.115] SAY: Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "THE RD HAS BEEN DEMOTED DUE TO DERILICTION OF DUTY." (Brig Entrance (113,162,4))
[2023-01-19 02:53:14.502] SAY: 02:53:14.502] SAY: Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "AN ARREST ATTEMPT WAS MADE. HE HAD THE TELEPORT THINGY. HE TELEPORTED INTO LAVA." (Brig Entrance (113,162,4))
[2023-01-19 02:53:29.541] SAY: 02:53:29.541] SAY: Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "THE NEW RD WILL SOON BE DETERMINED FROM THE PERSONNEL OF THE SCIENCE DEPARTMENT." (Fore Primary Hallway (113,148,4))
This is not an effort to have me revived. It doesn't say where I'm dead, it doesn't suggest that someone go get my corpse, if anything it is a clear suggestion is that I should be left dead.
User avatar
trexter555
In-Game Admin
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:08 am
Byond Username: Trexter555

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by trexter555 » #662281

hey, you probably don't know this, but ban requests have been closed for awhile now. if you have a problem with how an admin handled one of your ahelps, you're free to give them feedback on their feedback thread, complaints are for cases of admin misconduct.
User avatar
kieth4
In-Game Head Admin
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:17 pm
Byond Username: Kieth4

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by kieth4 » #662291

Sorry if this is a peanut. This doesn't read like a ban request to me. I think the complainers issue is with the admins understanding of escalation policy(?) and is asking for the headmins to have a talk with him.
User avatar
Scriptis
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 12:05 am
Byond Username: Scriptis

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Scriptis » #662294

Round 198491 (game attack manifest)

Relevant logs:

Code: Select all

01:49:54	MANIFEST	diegospartan \ Franchesca Kafka \ Head of Personnel \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART
01:52:38	MANIFEST	JeanLafitte \ Cassidy Knapenberger \ Security Officer \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
02:00:47	MANIFEST	Zybwivcz \ Kellen Black \ Research Director \ NONE \ LATEJOIN
02:51:46	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "hey RD"	(112, 170, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:51:52	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "You are under arrest, good man."	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:51:53	EMOTE	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) points at Kellen Black	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:51:59	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "for deriliction of duty"	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:03	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "and alot of other shit"	(112, 172, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:05	ATTACK	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) stun attacked Zybwivcz/(Kellen Black) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 66.3) 
02:52:08	EMOTE	Zybwivcz/(Kellen Black) screams!	(109, 166, 2)	Icemoon Underground
02:52:08	EMOTE	Zybwivcz/(Kellen Black) screams!	(109, 166, 2)	Icemoon Underground
02:52:08	GAME	Zybwivcz/(Kellen Black) has teleported from (Brig Overlook (113,171,4)) to (Icemoon Wastes (109,166,4))	(109, 166, 4)	Icemoon Wastes
02:52:10	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "bruh"	(112, 171, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:11	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "oof"	(114, 169, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:12	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "ded"	(114, 169, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:20	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "well"	(113, 168, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:23	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "caught in 4K HD."	(113, 168, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:32	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "Interesting."	(113, 168, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:33	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "welp the rd ded"	(114, 169, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:39	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "wel"	(111, 171, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:43	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "off to do bureocracy."	(111, 171, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:46	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "ATTENTION CREW."	(112, 168, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:52:56	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "probablyt"	(112, 174, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:53:01	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "THE RD HAS BEEN DEMOTED DUE TO DERILICTION OF DUTY."	(113, 162, 4)	Brig Entrance
02:53:13	ATTACK	Zybwivcz/(Kellen Black) has died (BRUTE: 0, BURN: 115.1, TOX: 78.6579, OXY: 25.3333, CLONE: 0)	(109, 166, 2)	Icemoon Underground
02:53:14	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "AN ARREST ATTEMPT WAS MADE. HE HAD THE TELEPORT THINGY. HE TELEPORTED INTO LAVA."	(113, 162, 4)	Brig Entrance
02:53:29	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "THE NEW RD WILL SOON BE DETERMINED FROM THE PERSONNEL OF THE SCIENCE DEPARTMENT."
02:53:37	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "well"	(112, 174, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:53:39	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "he's dead"	(112, 174, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:53:41	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "and gone"	(112, 174, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:53:47	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "just behave"	(112, 174, 4)	Brig Overlook
02:54:20	SAY	JeanLafitte/(Cassidy Knapenberger) "honk honk"	(113, 173, 4)	Brig Overlook
Point of death (lowest level of Icebox, south of the permabrig):
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
Rageguy505
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:42 am
Byond Username: Rageguy505

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Rageguy505 » #662295

Hey, im gonna go to bed but ill just quickly post what the HoP sent before they decided to demote you.
Image

I then set a headset message to them saying message received while a prepped a centcom official to head to the station. In the time i was briefing them about what they were there for, you teleported onto open space and fell into lava.
Also shortly after i received the fax they said this to the captain

Code: Select all

02:48:51	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "yo cappie"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:48:59	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "RD is being demoted"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:49:02	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "by order of nanotrasen"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:49:05	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "just uh wanted you informed"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
Then he asks a nearby officer for help, and the captain then gives response to the situation.

Code: Select all

02:49:36	SAY	PixelMade42/(Phillip Leech) "sure"	(116, 143, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
But again, you died due to no large fault of the HoP and fell into a dangerous, hard to reach place. I'm not gonna yell at a guy if someone dies to faults outside of their ability and they don't jump to grab them. Also sometime later, not sure how long, but spiders spawned and started killing large swathes of the crew which would make your recovery of a demoted RD pretty low on the ladder.
User avatar
Archie700
In-Game Admin
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:56 am
Byond Username: Archie700

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Archie700 » #662301

Rageguy505 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:15 am Also sometime later, not sure how long, but spiders spawned and started killing large swathes of the crew which would make your recovery of a demoted RD pretty low on the ladder.
Logs showed that spiders spawned shortly before the incident and were called out 4 minutes later.

Code: Select all

02:52:36	GAME	Midwife spider eggs were spawned via an event.		
02:52:44	GAME	*no key*/(broodmother spider (560)) The broodmother spider (560) name changed from to �spider (370)	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:44	ACCESS	Mob Login: torind7/(�spider (370)) was assigned to a /mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/giant_spider/midwife		
02:52:44	GAME	torind7/(�spider (370)) Client torind7/(�spider (370)) has taken ownership of mob the �spider (370)(/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/giant_spider/midwife)	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:44	GAME	*no key*/(broodmother spider (563)) The broodmother spider (563) name changed from to �spider (655)	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:44	ACCESS	Mob Login: beanstrom/(�spider (655)) was assigned to a /mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/giant_spider/midwife		
02:52:44	GAME	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) Client beanstrom/(�spider (655)) has taken ownership of mob the �spider (655)(/mob/living/simple_animal/hostile/giant_spider/midwife)	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:46	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "OH"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:49	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "KAY THEN"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:52:50	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "careful"	(143, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:03	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "well"	(142, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:06	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "Was not expecting this"	(142, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:23	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "So"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:28	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "Wait 'till they hatch?"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:32	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "we're SUPER fragile"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:53:39	GAME	torind7/(�spider (370)) set its directive to: 'Ensure the survival of the spider species and overtake whatever structure you find yourself in. Don't be aggressive unless provoked.'.	(141, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:54:01	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) (spider command) "Arachnids, rise up!"	(141, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:54:35	GAME	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) set its directive to: 'Stay in the dark for a little while, until our numbers boost. Also SEIZE THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION MY CHILDREN'.	(143, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:04	GAME	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) set its directive to: 'Stay in the dark for a little while, until our numbers boost, then SEIZE THE MEANS OF NANOTRASEN FIGURINE PRODUCTION!'.	(143, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:06	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "well"	(143, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:07	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "we must be quiet"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:09	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "and also"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:09	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "Time to WAIT."	(143, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:15	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "dont get killed"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:17	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "fuck"	(143, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:20	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "tried to wrap"	(143, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:28	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "uuntil you lay special eggs"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:35	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "should I reinforce the webbing on the door?"	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:35	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "or else were doomed"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:39	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "Yeah I know that much"	(142, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:41	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "not yet"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:44	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "thankfully"	(142, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:51	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "itd make noise"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:57	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "to break"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:59	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "That makes"	(142, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:55:59	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "Oh"	(142, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:08	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "just chill for now"	(141, 132, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:12	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "got it."	(142, 133, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:35	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "bruh moment"	(151, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:36	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "HES COMING"	(150, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:38	SAY	Tilus/(Sodium III) "SPIDERS IN HDYRO MAINT"	(132, 133, 3)	Hydroponics
02:56:40	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "THE ONE"	(149, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:41	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "WHEELCHAIR"	(149, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:43	SAY	torind7/(�spider (370)) "uh"	(151, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:43	SAY	Tilus/(Sodium III) "SPIDERS IN HYDRO MAINT"	(132, 133, 3)	Hydroponics
02:56:44	SAY	beanstrom/(�spider (655)) "WHY"	(148, 134, 3)	Bar Maintenance
02:56:47	SAY	Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "SPIDER?"	(110, 143, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
Zybwivcz
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Byond Username: Zybwivcz

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Zybwivcz » #662348

Rageguy505 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:15 am I then set a headset message to them saying message received while a prepped a centcom official to head to the station. In the time i was briefing them about what they were there for, you teleported onto open space and fell into lava.
Also shortly after i received the fax they said this to the captain

Code: Select all

02:48:51	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "yo cappie"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:48:59	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "RD is being demoted"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:49:02	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "by order of nanotrasen"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
02:49:05	SAY	Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "just uh wanted you informed"	(115, 144, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
Then he asks a nearby officer for help, and the captain then gives response to the situation.

Code: Select all

02:49:36	SAY	PixelMade42/(Phillip Leech) "sure"	(116, 143, 4)	Central Primary Hallway
Didn't bring it up in the OP since it goes on for a while, but in the ahelp you mentioned you never verified the HoP's claims and that a least few of them turned out to be false.

Also doesn't appear to be anything in the chat logs I can find that qualifies as him discussing it with the captain beforehand, as you claimed he told you he did:


03:47:37: Reply from-rageguy505: he did discuss it with the captain, but im not sure to what extent

https://atlantaned.space/banbus/ticket/c1f0425c7f51fff5
kieth4 wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:14 am the complainers issue is with the admins understanding of escalation policy
Yes. That and "don't tell someone to demote a head for [REASONS] unless you make a reasonable effort to verify [REASONS]", whatever policy that falls under.
User avatar
Rageguy505
In-Game Admin
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:42 am
Byond Username: Rageguy505

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Rageguy505 » #662419

I didnt feel the need to verify the HoP's claims for a IC conflict. If they turned out to be false due to miscommunication in-game that's part of the game.
And that bit about the HoP telling the captain he's being demoted by order of nanotrasen is the conversation I mentioned he had with the captain, I saw him bring it up and then I left so I didn't see the full conversation which is why I told you I wasnt sure to what extent.
Later when the inspector was done talking with the HoP he sent a fax saying

Code: Select all

 "The issue was suprisingly well resolved, most of the station is not in well state of repair but a new rd is being voted for (most of the votes are currently going for the mime) and the rd is in fact down in a lake of lava in security and will be recovered as soon as possible.
 - 
 - Weirdly enough surprisingly polite resolution/"
Which was sent at 03:07:45 and the HoP made a call out for spiders at 03:08:46 with

Code: Select all

 SAY Diegospartan/(Franchesca Kafka) "focking spoiders mate"
and shortly later, about 5-ish minutes theyre in medbay fighting spiders.

I don't think the HoP did anything wrong, you died due to the telearmor you were wearing, the demotion had good enough reasoning behind it from what I received, and your recovery was hampered with spiders killing everyone. I think I handled this well enough.
Zybwivcz
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:30 am
Byond Username: Zybwivcz

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by Zybwivcz » #662485

Rageguy505 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:14 am I didnt feel the need to verify the HoP's claims for a IC conflict. If they turned out to be false due to miscommunication in-game that's part of the game.
It stops being an IC conflict when he asks an admin for permission and gets it. Before that, he's responsible for his own fuckup. When an admin tells him he can do it, it's the admin's responsibility.
Rageguy505 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:14 am And that bit about the HoP telling the captain he's being demoted by order of nanotrasen is the conversation I mentioned he had with the captain, I saw him bring it up and then I left so I didn't see the full conversation which is why I told you I wasnt sure to what extent.
Sounds like he didn't talk to the captain about it at all first, just got the go ahead from you and then only afterwards told the captain centcomm ordered him to do it.
Rageguy505 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:14 am Later when the inspector was done talking with the HoP he sent a fax saying

Code: Select all

 "The issue was suprisingly well resolved, most of the station is not in well state of repair but a new rd is being voted for (most of the votes are currently going for the mime) and the rd is in fact down in a lake of lava in security and will be recovered as soon as possible.
This is worse. "He fell into the lava where it's impossible to recover him" would have been at least a half-assed excuse for why he did nothing, this is him admitting he knows my corpse is recoverable. This is sent roughly 15 minutes after he's seen me die in the lava.
I don't think the HoP did anything wrong, you died due to the telearmor you were wearing, the demotion had good enough reasoning behind it from what I received, and your recovery was hampered with spiders killing everyone. I think I handled this well enough.
Things the HoP did wrong:
1)Deciding, on his own without bringing it to the captain, to arrest and demote another head.
2)Gives as a rationale something that was at best false and at worst a lie.
3)Spends a quarter of an hour dicking around making exactly zero efforts, not even a single request over the radio, to recover the corpse.
User avatar
spookuni
In-Game Game Master
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:05 am
Byond Username: Spookuni
Location: The Whiteship

Re: [Rageguy505] "Make an effort to treat the other"

Post by spookuni » #662491

We have decided not to uphold this complaint.

Admins are fully empowered to both sign off on IC interactions through the medium of Centcomm communications, and to issue rulings on the validity of IC actions when approaching edge-cases like the result of a valid IC conflict resulting in death due to something like the reactive teleport armour.

My own log diving for this incident (a process made more difficult by how little you seem to actually communicate in the round - you have almost as many full sentences spoken in the ahelp ticket for this incident as in the round) indicates that there were enough incidents of a varied nature that another member of command seeking to demote you would fall within classification as an IC issue, and not a random attack.

Subsequently to that, while we do ask that players make a minimum good faith effort to retrieve and revive people who die due to unforeseen circumstances as a result of legitimate IC conflict, given the timing before another incoming disaster and the great difficulty in retrieving bodies from the icebox plasma lake, we do not that not holding the HoP to immediately rush down and (likely die) attempting retrieval in the few minutes before another issue appeared to be unreasonable.

Spook: Do not uphold
Rave: Do not uphold
San: Do not uphold
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users