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Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

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Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:07 pm
by mrgdkat00
Server-sybil
Byond account and character name- Mrgdkat and IGN Jay shoestring.
admin name- Rectification.
round 199446.
Detailed summary: All this started when the HOP decided he was going to creampie my face while i was in the middle of healing which i took no offense to whatever but once i stood up he decided to drop a banana peel and slip me and when i stood up again he slipped me once more this time i snatched the banana peel off the groound and slipped him back and said thats hilarious huh? and ran off. i saw him again 5 minutes later in med bay at which point he decided he was going to flash me and cuff me which he did and started dragging me to sec to jail or so i thought, he drags me past brig and into the back where he buckles me to a chair and runs off to grab a locker once hes back with said locker he unbuckles me stands me up and starts stripping me and puts me into the locker at which point another head of staff(which one i dont remember) comes in and asks why im being arrested multiple times the guy completely ignores him and continues to try and shove me in the locker. the head of staff who i forget grabs ahold of me trying to figure out what the problem was, still the hops not giving any reasoning and im saying its because i slipped him back and hes upset, at this point the head deffending me says im ok and to leave still the hop is ignoring everything and trying to locker me so the head defending me stuns him to get him to stop and a sec player comes in (later find out its the Chief engi in sec gear) and just starts shooting me with a laser without saying anything while im still tied up trying to execute me. after a few seconds a man in captains gear comes in and says what the chief engi was doing was fine and to let them kill me, the head whos been defending me the whole time is now argueing with the players saying i have done nothing wrong because ive been arrested the entire time but they werent hearing it. somehow i get out of sec with the guy defending me and thats when i decided to Ahelp and ask why the HOP was going to round remove me. the answer i got was " I've overviewed it, and I don't think their escalation was too out of hand given the extreme circumstances they were in. You were reasonable in ahelping it." at which point i ask how is him round removing me for slipping him back proper escalation in any way shape or form he closed the ticket saying IC issue, if theres some extenuating circumstance to where he felt they were in "extreme circumstances" and round removal is fair i should be given an explanation not a ticket closed saying its "IC issue". they left after this so i had no chance to even talk with them about it.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:50 pm
by Itseasytosee2me
I did not believe action was necessary in this scenario. Another admin might have, but this is up to my discretion as of Rule 0.
The following reasons are why I did not think punishment of any heads of staff involved were necessary:

-You were held by the heads of staff for less than five minutes.
-You were not round round removed, or even killed by the heads of staff
-The station situation was very tense do to all the antagonists running amok, I lend this tension as lenience to the heads of staff who transgressed you.
-After being captured initially, you began being very hostiles verbally in a clearly OOC way. Highlights include saying "he's mad" at least 20 times, as well as the more rule breaky "ill call admin" and "and you tried to round remove me for it" this verbal escalation makes their threats in response seem justified, and likely made just to elicit a reaction out of you. You fucked around and found out.

and finally, and I really can not stress this enough
You were not killed.

Being beaten by the captain for slipping him back and forth and then verbally attacking him is a reasonable response in my opinion.

This forum is not made to request bans on individuals, it is to critique poor admin conduct or report abuse. I operated entirely within reasonable boundaries. My apologies for closing your ticket as abruptly as I did.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:16 pm
by vect0r
for reference, the hop was "Jonathan Paulson" Ckey Admiral gigatron.
Here are relevant logs, taken from Statbus here filtered for Mrgdkat
► Show Spoiler
also for reference, security policy:
► Show Spoiler

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:14 pm
by mrgdkat00
youre correct i wasnt actually killed or techinically round removed because another player intervened and stopped me from being locked inside of the locker but the intention of hop was to strip me of everything and lock me in a locker in the back of sec where no one would find me, and it seems like the logs say i was held in handcuffs for atleast 5 minutes i guesss not actually imprisoned since he didnt actually take me to the brig. my intentions were never to get anyone banned only to critique a report i felt was handled poorly. And the part where you say the highlights are me saying youre mad 20 times the logs show that he initiated that talk by calling me salty so i threw it right back at him yes. and as to the state of the station i would have no idea because i had only just arrived 10 minutes prior to this all happening and if you wouldve expained that in the ticket instead of the most generic copy and paste reply and then closing the ticket i wouldve probably seen your side of it and been like whatever it is what is.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:51 pm
by Timberpoes
You have asked a couple of times that Rectification give more information when closing out a ticket.

I'd like to address this via explaining an admin team "best practice" when it comes to handling IC issue tickets.

This is going to be a touch lengthy, but I wanted to give not just the what but also the why!

We try our best not to reveal IC information to players that they wouldn't already have knowledge of if they're still actively participating in the shift. Exceptions may be made for players already permanently removed from the shift, since they can't rejoin as that character anyway - but it's still no guarantee.

Tickets will not always end with a super satisfactory answer to the player as a result, and getting a variant of "I've looked into this and due to reasons I don't want to reveal to you, it's an IC issue" is an unfortunate fact of playing a game like SS13.

This game has a strong emphasis on "incomplete information" - players not knowing everything and having to figure out what's going on through interactions with the game world.

I'm sure you'll appreciate it's often impossible as an admin to balance the desire to give players a satisfactory conclusion at the end of every ticket, with not wanting to break the barrier between OOC and IC by giving extra information about the shift the player may not have otherwise known.

Many admins desperately want to say "Well there's tons of antags everywhere, the sec officer's stressed because they feel constantly under threat, and the cow has just jumped over the moon, so it's an IC issue I'm afraid" - but in the middle of a shift when you're still participating, you can really only expect vague and generic replies from admins. We don't want to give any secrets or surprises about the shift away and ruin it! And the sad part is that there aren't really many ways to square this circle in a satisfactory way.

At best I can give a couple of top tips:
Usually the number one way players figure out this information is by asking in OOC after the round is over - "What happened in the brig?" "Does anyone know why this sec officer shot me?" etc. as well as having a look at the end of round report screen to see which players were antags.

Another hot source of information may be our official Discord. Sometimes players will jump on there when a shift ends to chat about the events and what just happened. Of course this is no guarantee - sometimes it's busy, sometimes it's not, but there's a chance you can get more insight into things you didn't know about the last shift from there too.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:10 am
by mrgdkat00
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:51 pm You have asked a couple of times that Rectification give more information when closing out a ticket.

I'd like to address this via explaining an admin team "best practice" when it comes to handling IC issue tickets.

This is going to be a touch lengthy, but I wanted to give not just the what but also the why!

We try our best not to reveal IC information to players that they wouldn't already have knowledge of if they're still actively participating in the shift. Exceptions may be made for players already permanently removed from the shift, since they can't rejoin as that character anyway - but it's still no guarantee.

Tickets will not always end with a super satisfactory answer to the player as a result, and getting a variant of "I've looked into this and due to reasons I don't want to reveal to you, it's an IC issue" is an unfortunate fact of playing a game like SS13.

This game has a strong emphasis on "incomplete information" - players not knowing everything and having to figure out what's going on through interactions with the game world.

I'm sure you'll appreciate it's often impossible as an admin to balance the desire to give players a satisfactory conclusion at the end of every ticket, with not wanting to break the barrier between OOC and IC by giving extra information about the shift the player may not have otherwise known.

Many admins desperately want to say "Well there's tons of antags everywhere, the sec officer's stressed because they feel constantly under threat, and the cow has just jumped over the moon, so it's an IC issue I'm afraid" - but in the middle of a shift when you're still participating, you can really only expect vague and generic replies from admins. We don't want to give any secrets or surprises about the shift away and ruin it! And the sad part is that there aren't really many ways to square this circle in a satisfactory way.

At best I can give a couple of top tips:
Usually the number one way players figure out this information is by asking in OOC after the round is over - "What happened in the brig?" "Does anyone know why this sec officer shot me?" etc. as well as having a look at the end of round report screen to see which players were antags.

Another hot source of information may be our official Discord. Sometimes players will jump on there when a shift ends to chat about the events and what just happened. Of course this is no guarantee - sometimes it's busy, sometimes it's not, but there's a chance you can get more insight into things you didn't know about the last shift from there too.
i completely understand admins cant give out information like that mid game but im 99% sure by the time he replied i had already died and there was really no chance of me coming back as the ship was a few minutes away from arriving. I know that admins arent even required to give reasons for closing a ticket but with a reply that says "I've overviewed it, and I don't think their escalation was too out of hand given the extreme circumstances they were in" its fair to ask what the circumstances where assuming under "normal" circumstances this person would be give a reprimand or atleast talked to and thats all i really cared about. I appreciate youre replies and not making a joke out of a legit post and providing good information as to why things are the way they are. And like you said in vectors "peanut" post about clarity thats all i wanted to know why i was being attacked and imprisoned by the heads and it seemed brushed off by the answer IC issue.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:39 am
by Itseasytosee2me
I’d like to add to timber’s thought that another reason I was scant with you in the ticket was out of a desire to not incite any further argument. I had already reached a conclusion in my investigation, and was under the assumption you would be combative given your convictions in character to tell the admins as a threat (something you should never do, and very likely to get you banned for ban baiting if you continue to do so.)

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:45 am
by Itseasytosee2me
I should say, thats not an accusation. I don’t have any reason to think you are acting in bad faith.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:49 am
by mrgdkat00
i wasnt using it as a threat and i would never say that IC as one, i was saying it as a statement and when i said it thats exactly what i did. he was acting OOC by grudging me and putting me in perma instead of in the brig for whatever amount of time was appropriate like his IC persona is meant to do.

Re: Rectification- round removal for no reason being deemed IC issue.

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:14 am
by spookuni
We see no reason to uphold this complaint. Making calls on adminhelps midround is what admins do, and we don't see anything that indicates Easy failed to do their due diligence here. Simply disagreeing with an admin is not grounds for a successful admin complaint.

Spook: Do not uphold
Rave: Do not uphold
San: Do not uphold
Misdoubtful: Do not uphold
All times are UTC
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