[Saegrimr] Badminning and shitposting

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:21 am

First the ban for lizard racism meme on radio followed by slip and stealing a baton. Ended up saving an officer from some toolboxing twat and so the lizards economy goes easy on me and gives me a 10min sentence. Saeg gives me a dayban because IC resolutions are for nerds.

Thread: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4866
Then locking the ban appeal thread before anyone else can offer input.

Then the shitcherry on this shit cake he posts some out of context meme'ing with Ameleus (no jokes allowed on this very serious game!) and then logs from a round where the HOS made a rounds tart announcement that he'd be putting assistants on meathooks in order to hasten a shuttle call and get us back to Dreamstation

It takes a special tier of shitmin to close an appeal for their own ban while shittalking the appellant, then cherry picking logs while deliberately cutting out context. You should just control F "viva" and push for a permanentotal ban on the grounds that I've proclaimed over 500 vivas over the last 3 years. I expect cherry picked logs in an OOC shit post, not on a ban appeal.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:25 am #124183

"Okay"

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:34 am #124188

oldman, You're being a shit.

Saegrimr, don't lock your appeal threads that quickly. Just say its in the hands of the headmins then wash your hands of it. It's bloodly frustrating to everybody when that happens, and i'd really like to avoid having to remove lock powers in fnr from admins.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:34 am #124189

Sure thing, i'll go unlock it. Oh wait you already did.

Anyway, enjoy. If you for some reason think you didn't actually start people rioting, and that this somehow isn't normal behavior for you then go convince a headmin of it. I'm not buying your bullshit.

You not liking my attitude about it doesn't change that you're upset that I caught you fucking up.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:00 pm #124287

You should just control F "viva" and push for a permanentotal ban on the grounds that I've proclaimed over 500 vivas over the last 3 years.

In your case I think that's actually a pretty good idea.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:44 pm

Saegrimr wrote: You not liking my attitude about it doesn't change that you're upset that I caught you fucking up.

Exactly what did you even "catch" me doing?

It's this stupid vague shit that shouldn't be tolerated when dolling out bans.

You state specifically what I did wrong and why its bannable. Last I check this server, along with 95% of the civilized world follows this method of rule enforcement:

1) Did you break a rule?
2) If yes, was there an overriding justification that would excuse the rulebreaking?

You just skipped straight to 2 without even looking at the fundamental question of #1.

"HEY GREYSHIRT WHY ARE YOU BEING MEAN?"

"I dunno"

You have been banned for 1440 minutes, reason: DIDN'T GIVE ME A GOOD JUSTIFICATION TO NOT BAN HIM.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:55 pm #124302

We shouldn't really be going forward the whole "catching" policy.

Admins are there to resolve issues that arise from the players, not actively search for reasons to be dropping punishments.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:02 pm #124307

You know it's funny, I logged in shortly after Saegrimr because I saw the ahelp on IRC (all admins were offline or AFK so it popped over there) only to see he had already handled it. And yet I probably would have handled it the same way he did.

As far as the rule you broke, it's under Rule 1 precedents:

- Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.

Your shitty response when asked why you were behaving the way you did not at all help your case. It was basically 'I am bored and thus will fuck with sec and/or lizard players.' Saegrimr then provided logs of this repeated behavior in the appeal. The ban is meant to teach a lesson: stop being a greytiding, griefing asshole FNR as a non-antag.

So in short:
1) You broke a rule.
2) You provided a completely unsatisfactory response to why you broke that rule.

I'd post this in the appeal, but since headmins are being asked for it's not really my place as a trialmin. But, you're an old, long time player here. It's probably expected better of you when it comes to the rules, and Saegrimr does not want or feels he shouldn't have to spell it out for you.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:22 pm #124311

Aliannera wrote:You know it's funny, I logged in shortly after Saegrimr because I saw the ahelp on IRC (all admins were offline or AFK so it popped over there) only to see he had already handled it. And yet I probably would have handled it the same way he did.

As far as the rule you broke, it's under Rule 1 precedents:
- Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1. Admins may follow up on grief with allowing the affected parties to ignore normal escalation policy or measures such as warnings or bans.
Your shitty response when asked why you were behaving the way you did not at all help your case. It was basically 'I am bored and thus will fuck with sec and/or lizard players.' Saegrimr then provided logs of this repeated behavior in the appeal. The ban is meant to teach a lesson: stop being a greytiding, griefing asshole FNR as a non-antag.

So in short:
1) You broke a rule.
2) You provided a completely unsatisfactory response to why you broke that rule.

I'd post this in the appeal, but since headmins are being asked for it's not really my place as a trialmin. But, you're an old, long time player here. It's probably expected better of you when it comes to the rules, and Saegrimr does not want or feels he shouldn't have to spell it out for you.

Who made the Ahelp and what was the complaint? I didn't see it in the appeal thread.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:24 pm

Aliannera wrote:repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief...

Saegrimr then provided logs of this repeated behavior in the appeal.

This is precisely why I made this fucking post.

He posted manipulative, edited, downright 100% deceitfully cherrypicked logs to cast me in the worst light possible. He also acknowledged that he DIDN'T EVEN SEE THOSE LOGS UNTIL AFTER THE BAN, THEY WERE NOT PART OF THE BAN JUSTIFICATION.

What is my recourse here? I don't have log access. I can't PROVE that Emily Ranger and I were joking around in the second example and just acting like a retard on the radio was about the gravest offense in the second log since Saeg has thoughtfully excluded all evidence in my favor.

Likewise in the first log I can't PROVE that the HOS sent out a desk announcement that he would be hanging crew/assistants from meathooks in order to expedite a shuttle call and force us to a new map, nor can I prove that the HOS actively encouraged and participated in the torture of crewmembers.

Thanks to Saeg providing us with those beautifully edited logs, he can conjure up support for my ban and there's almost nothing I can do to prove him wrong. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one here who realizes precisely how shitty and abusive that is.

In conclusion, not only was "repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief" not a part of Saeg's ban rationale (he took about 10 seconds to make the ban decision, I had not received any bwoinks at all throughout the 8+ hours preceding my ban, he didn't access logs until after my ban to come up with an ex-post facto excuse for the ban) but those repeated cases were not unprovoked and they weren't even grief.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:29 pm #124317

I'd like to see what the AHelp was and who it was from.

Right now it seems like the ban was tacked on after it was resolved IC.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:32 pm

I'd just like to say that if saegrimr edited logs to justify banning someone he didn't like, that's Going Too Far Even For Him

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:41 pm #124323

Tornadium wrote: Who made the Ahelp and what was the complaint? I didn't see it in the appeal thread.

I can't provide who did it, first as I don't know if it's best to give such a name, second, even if I could I'm currently in clinicals at the moment so I can't go pull the logs anyway.

The ahelp was, in basic terms, "some people are starting race riots." A second player was actually also banned for their part in what happened.

And to Oldman, the public logs are there and should be accessible to find those sorts of things about the HOS stuff and the like. I'd go through it myself if you could provide times and dates, but again, clinicals and going through public logs on my phone is a bitch, so you might have to go through it yourself to find that stuff if you don't want to wait hours.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:48 pm #124330

Aliannera wrote:
Tornadium wrote: Who made the Ahelp and what was the complaint? I didn't see it in the appeal thread.
I can't provide who did it, first as I don't know if it's best to give such a name, second, even if I could I'm currently in clinicals at the moment so I can't go pull the logs anyway.

The ahelp was, in basic terms, "some people are starting race riots." A second player was actually also banned for their part in what happened.

And to Oldman, the public logs are there and should be accessible to find those sorts of things about the HOS stuff and the like. I'd go through it myself if you could provide times and dates, but again, clinicals and going through public logs on my phone is a bitch, so you might have to go through it yourself to find that stuff if you don't want to wait hours.

For fuck sake really?

The ban was made based on an AHelp that someone was starting a race riot?

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:50 pm

Fresh off the presses folks, the smoking gun is here!

[01:42:33]Asay: Saegrimr : I
[02:11:40]Asay: Saegrimr : banned
[04:53:17]Asay: Saegrimr : old
[06:12:58]Asay: Saegrimr : man
[07:25:06]Asay: Saegrimr : because
[11:34:21]Asay: Saegrimr : I
[15:09:26]Asay: Saegrimr : am
[20:40:39]Asay: Saegrimr : Hitler

Also I wasn't aware we had public logs now, had to dig them up off the coding forum. I'll find the full sections soon.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:03 pm #124336

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4012

For public logs.

And yes, that was what was brought to our attention. Came to find that someone had attacked and gone after a sec officer and could not provide sufficient reason for it outside of because why not. My understanding as well is that, similar to telling the AI to attack a non-human FNR and that person ends up dead being ahelp and ban worthy, the same applies to those who start riots which result in harm and death, or can be seen as griefing.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:40 pm

Aliannera wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4012

For public logs.

And yes, that was what was brought to our attention. Came to find that someone had attacked and gone after a sec officer and could not provide sufficient reason for it outside of because why not. My understanding as well is that, similar to telling the AI to attack a non-human FNR and that person ends up dead being ahelp and ban worthy, the same applies to those who start riots which result in harm and death, or can be seen as griefing.

Except nobody died, and when somebody started harming (and they got banned for it) I immediately intervened, and at risk to myself, dragged the stunned sec officer to safety near the brig.

Here's my own edited and cherry-picked version of events:

[23:50:40]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : DOWN WITH THE LIZARD REGIME!!!
[23:50:45]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : Wow
[23:50:46]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : DOWN WITH LIGGERS
[23:50:47]SAY: Greg Dunkleman/Cosbys Puddin : FUCKIN LIZZARD HOW DO THEY WORK
[23:51:49]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : SECURITY YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS
[23:51:52]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : DOWN WITH LIZARDS
[23:51:55]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : FIRE THE LIZARD
[23:52:01]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : OR FACE THE TIDE!!!
[23:52:02]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : THE LIGGERS GOT ME
[23:52:06]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE BRIG UNTIL THEY FIRE THE LIZARDS
[23:52:07]SAY: Slick Jenkins/MajorScooter : These anti lizard folks are trying to insult the Great Will
[23:52:11]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE WINDOWS
[23:53:08]SAY: ExcessiveUseOfCobby/(Lola Cobblestone) has made a priority announcement: Lizard Hate Crimes are now a briggable offence [1 minute or 100 points in the gulag]. Go be a shit on someone else's station.
[23:53:13]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : RELEASE THE HUMAN PATRIOTS!!!
[23:53:21]SAY: Revolver Ocelot/Kingwest : THE PATRIOTS !! ???
[23:53:22]SAY: Varg Vikernes/Uristmcbigbeard : FREE SPEECH
[23:53:35]SAY: Varg Vikernes (as Prisoner #13-007)/Uristmcbigbeard : I DID NOTHIN BUT LOVE MY STATION
[23:53:38]SAY: Varg Vikernes (as Prisoner #13-007)/Uristmcbigbeard : KEEP THE RACE PURE
[23:53:44]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : DIRTY DUMB LIZARD SCUM
[23:53:57]ACCESS: Login: Saegrimr/(Saegrimr) from -censored(ip/cid)- || BYOND v506
[23:55:17]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : LIZARD SEC IN ARRIVALS MAINT
[23:55:27]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : HES-S OUT-T-T F-FOR-R-R-R UM-MAN B-B-BL-L-LOOD-D AN-ND-D OUR-R WOM-MAN-NS-S V-V-VIR-R-RGINIT-TY
(Arrested here)
[23:55:52]SAY: Louis Cypher/Lonestar827 : You guys need the Great Will in your life
[23:55:59]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : THEY ARE SWARMING OLDMAN
[23:55:59]SAY: Louis Cypher/Lonestar827 : And look past race
[23:56:10]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : F-FIG-GH-HT-T ON PAT-TRIOT-TS-S!!!
[23:57:54]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Oldman didnt try to kill me
[23:57:56]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Ssso you know
[23:57:58]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Varg did though
[23:58:00]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : You were being toolboxed
[23:58:02]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Varg ssstraight up beat my head in
[23:58:04]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : And I pulled you towatrd the brig
[23:58:15]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : Slipped and stole shit
[23:58:24]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : Name a baton and cuffs
[23:59:22]ADMIN: saegrimr has banned forcefulcjs.

Yea I'm not seeing the bannable offense here Saeg, maybe you could do your job and actually explain why you banned me. Varg got banned for toolboxing an officer (ok I get that), I got banned for "DOWN WITH LIZARDS" and "FIRE LIZARDS FROM SECURITY!" while putting water in the brig hall and stole a baton when one lizardofficer (lizzy) slipped. Meanwhile Kor obviously wasn't banned even though phrases like "SMASH THE BRIG!" and "SMASH THE WINDOWS!" were more greytidey and riot-provoking than "DOWN WITH LIZARDS!". Kor also lacked any excuse for inciting greytide/race riots.

If a former headmin participated in this behavior while another admin is saying its strictly bannable, maybe just MAYBE we deserve some clarification on this and not just locking up posts ASAP.

Edit: I would still argue this enhanced the round (aside from Vard toolboxing an officer). It was an entertaining spectacle and nobody died, no items of consequence were stolen, and it kept radio/security lively for the first 15 minutes. As a security player I would far prefer hunting down a harmless racist rather than sitting in my dept. office watching paint dry as the AI undertakes its 200 minute plan to destroy the station and absolutely nothing happens until I'm suddenly bolted into a room with no gloves or tools. As someone else put it, security is more enjoyable when your job is more than staring at a wall until valids reveal themselves. "Low level conflict" is good for the game, stop trying to kill it.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:40 pm #124343

Aliannera wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4012

For public logs.

And yes, that was what was brought to our attention. Came to find that someone had attacked and gone after a sec officer and could not provide sufficient reason for it outside of because why not. My understanding as well is that, similar to telling the AI to attack a non-human FNR and that person ends up dead being ahelp and ban worthy, the same applies to those who start riots which result in harm and death, or can be seen as griefing.

He didn't attack or go after a sec officer.

So if I shout shitcurity and it starts a riot I'm liable for bans because other people try to kill a sec officer? That's fucking retarded.

Also if that was all handled IC why was he banned for the toolboxing?

Post by **Jacquerel** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:43 pm #124344

Maybe I'm crazy but "if I incite people to start a riot and then people die in the riot, I am somewhat responsible for that" doesn't really sound that unreasonable to me.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:44 pm #124346

Jacquerel wrote:Maybe I'm crazy but "if I incite people to start a riot and then people die in the riot, I am somewhat responsible for that" doesn't really sound that unreasonable to me.

No one died in the riot, At worst someone got toolboxed a bit.

It was ENTIRELY handled IC.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:57 pm #124351

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'd just like to say that if saegrimr edited logs to justify banning someone he didn't like, that's Going Too Far Even For Him

I don't "edit logs".

The most I do is remove all lines that don't contain a player's ckey, and remove connection IP/CID's

Notepad++ you can do this by ctrl-f, go to the "Mark" tab, input the string you want to find and check the "Bookmark line" checkbox. Then from Search > Bookmark > Remove Unmarked Lines

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:00 pm #124353

That's just my understanding of it and how I see it. It's also been how similar situations in the past have been handled, so the precedent is there. If another admin wants to say otherwise then I'll defer to them on it, I'm just a bored trialmin because no one's coming to the PFT lab today it seems.

Also you have to understand that a quick look at the logs might not show a full story. It's happened to me before, rather recently actually. Having to explain yourself is just something that is needed at times.

The ban, if it were up to me, should remain in place if just to help deter this sort of behavior. Although this isn't about the ban but an admin complaint, so I should just back myself out of it.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:45 pm

Saegrimr wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'd just like to say that if saegrimr edited logs to justify banning someone he didn't like, that's Going Too Far Even For Him
I don't "edit logs".

The most I do is remove all lines that don't contain a player's ckey, and remove connection IP/CID's

Notepad++ you can do this by ctrl-f, go to the "Mark" tab, input the string you want to find and check the "Bookmark line" checkbox. Then from Search > Bookmark > Remove Unmarked Lines

I'm not saying you altered what I said. I'm saying that you sliced out my most offensive radio messages and made sure that absolutely no context was present.

Cherry picking logs has always been a shit-tier tactic and proof that they weren't trying to be fair or equitable in their ban/ban request but rather they were pushing a grudgeban and hoping that if they strung together enough out-of-context messages that someone might take the bait.

Posting a round where I'm joking around with the HOS and another round where I was clearly just fucking around on radio in a round where we had gone Delta within 2 minutes after the crew voted to nuke the station and the HOS announced his intentions to torture people, all while ignoring that this was still ex-post facto evidence you put together after the ban. The ban was for what happened in that round, and what happened in that round wasn't bannable.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:48 pm #124370

No, but Dorsidarf was implying it.

Context as in misc departmental radio chatter? Yes, I missed the HoS announcement because while I was pulling up the log filtered for your ckey for the time of the ban, the very top of the day's logs is just a stream of "RIOT RIOT RIOT". Thank you for clearing that up.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:10 pm

Maybe we should wait for a headmin ruling instead of two people who are known to be stubborn arguing their own sides.

TheNightingale · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:28 pm

Does it really matter if anyone got killed or not? Deliberately trying to ruin people's rounds as a non-antag isn't the best behaviour, especially when unprovoked.
Even going from Oldman's version of the logs, it's still pretty awful. Inciting racial hatred and starting a greytide because dank memes? Not to mention your confession of slipping and stealing Officer Lizzy's baton and cuffs, which in itself is indicative of a bad attitude.

Spoiler:

Now, this might be a radical viewpoint, but... what if people didn't do stuff like this as a non-antag? Would that really be so bad?

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:34 pm

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Maybe we should wait for a headmin ruling instead of two people who are known to be stubborn arguing their own sides.

I wasn't even aware that was a thing.

This thread can close though, it's too redundant of the other ban appeal now that the thread is unlocked and I know where I can access logs.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:49 pm

TheNightingale wrote: Now, this might be a radical viewpoint, but... what if people didn't do stuff like this as a non-antag? Would that really be so bad?

Maybe I'm the radical but I don't view slip n' steal as ruining rounds. There's like 8 backup batons in security in addition to the ones officers start with.

As security, my biggest enemy isn't greytide, or nukeops, or wizards. It's boredom. If there's no antagonist driving conflict then I have no job. I've tried to pass the time by upgrading security but that's also repetitive work that only gets you called a powergamer. So when there's no conflict I just sit there now. I patrol, if patrols turn up nothing then I start going semi-AFK in my office.

I would much rather chase a racist around, somewhat comfortable in the knowledge that he's just an idiot and not a ruthless killer, playing a low-stakes game of cat & mouse, rather than just sitting there waiting for HARMYELLER 9000 to tell me where I can go for my valids. I would prefer the former even if that meant getting repeatedly slipped and having my baton stolen. Obviously this logic doesn't apply in an emergency, which is why I told Saeg first and foremost that my racism was literally the round's only event going on - not as a justification, but rather as an explanation of why I felt my behavior was well within the rules.

Snerdly · Post by **Snerdly** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:33 pm #124416

Oldman, with the shit you pull -every- round I'm honestly not surprised that you're not permabanned.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:57 pm

Snerdly wrote:Oldman, with the shit you pull -every- round I'm honestly not surprised that you're not permabanned.

I've seen this tired meme for years. Except years ago there was actually a coherent reason to ban me, even if it wasn't a very persuasive one.

Now? Well I'd like to see you describe the shit I pull "-every-" round.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:10 pm #124426

This might also be a radical idea, but if the game bores you that much... why not do something else with your time?

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:10 pm

bandit wrote:This might also be a radical idea, but if the game bores you that much... why not do something else with your time?

I take breaks when necessary to keep the game fresh.

It was more of a "well I'm at work and something might come up so I won't take a job slot up if I have to go" and then being saddled with assistant for a few hours, eventually you have to make your own fun(tm).

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:20 pm #124455

Oldman Robustin wrote: It was more of a "well I'm at work and something might come up so I won't take a job slot up if I have to go" and then being saddled with assistant for a few hours, eventually you have to make your own fun(tm).

Then build something. Or go space exploring. Or offer to be someone's assistant. Or rescue corpses in maint. Or ask the HoP for a job. Or make your own job. Or get a drink in the bar. Or read a book from the library. Or attend a service by the chaplain. Or take a nap in the dorms. Or challenge someone to a fight on the holodeck. Or make use of the public garden at arrivals. Or recycle as much as you can with the disposal.

Obviously none of that is something you can do though because you're a special snowflake who should be allowed to do whatever they want without any repercussions.

duncathan · Post by **duncathan** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:27 pm #124456

Last time I saw oldman build something was when he built a huge disposals death ride (I don't remember if it was actually him who made it deadly) and caused the longest and only trial I have ever seen on Sybil

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:40 pm

duncathan wrote:Last time I saw oldman build something was when he built a huge disposals death ride (I don't remember if it was actually him who made it deadly) and caused the longest and only trial I have ever seen on Sybil

I definitely didn't make it deadly, but when I heard it had been sabotaged and went to go fix it security arrested me on the spot and people continued to take the ride. I still insist that the officer who arrested me instead of giving me 10 more seconds to weld down a pipe was the one who should have been on trial.

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:54 pm

TheNightingale wrote:Does it really matter if anyone got killed or not? Deliberately trying to ruin people's rounds as a non-antag isn't the best behaviour, especially when unprovoked.
Even going from Oldman's version of the logs, it's still pretty awful. Inciting racial hatred and starting a greytide because dank memes? Not to mention your confession of slipping and stealing Officer Lizzy's baton and cuffs, which in itself is indicative of a bad attitude.

Spoiler:
[23:50:40]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : DOWN WITH THE LIZARD REGIME!!!
[23:50:45]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : Wow
[23:50:46]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : DOWN WITH LIGGERS
[23:50:47]SAY: Greg Dunkleman/Cosbys Puddin : FUCKIN LIZZARD HOW DO THEY WORK
[23:51:49]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : SECURITY YOU HAVE TWO OPTIONS
[23:51:52]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : DOWN WITH LIZARDS
[23:51:55]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : FIRE THE LIZARD
[23:52:01]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : OR FACE THE TIDE!!!
[23:52:02]SAY: Unknown/Uristmcbigbeard : THE LIGGERS GOT ME
[23:52:06]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE BRIG UNTIL THEY FIRE THE LIZARDS
[23:52:07]SAY: Slick Jenkins/MajorScooter : These anti lizard folks are trying to insult the Great Will
[23:52:11]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : SMASH THE WINDOWS
[23:53:08]SAY: ExcessiveUseOfCobby/(Lola Cobblestone) has made a priority announcement: Lizard Hate Crimes are now a briggable offence [1 minute or 100 points in the gulag]. Go be a shit on someone else's station.
[23:53:13]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : RELEASE THE HUMAN PATRIOTS!!!
[23:53:21]SAY: Revolver Ocelot/Kingwest : THE PATRIOTS !! ???
[23:53:22]SAY: Varg Vikernes/Uristmcbigbeard : FREE SPEECH
[23:53:35]SAY: Varg Vikernes (as Prisoner #13-007)/Uristmcbigbeard : I DID NOTHIN BUT LOVE MY STATION
[23:53:38]SAY: Varg Vikernes (as Prisoner #13-007)/Uristmcbigbeard : KEEP THE RACE PURE
[23:53:44]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : DIRTY DUMB LIZARD SCUM
[23:53:57]ACCESS: Login: Saegrimr/(Saegrimr) from -censored(ip/cid)- || BYOND v506
[23:55:17]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : LIZARD SEC IN ARRIVALS MAINT
[23:55:27]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : HES-S OUT-T-T F-FOR-R-R-R UM-MAN B-B-BL-L-LOOD-D AN-ND-D OUR-R WOM-MAN-NS-S V-V-VIR-R-RGINIT-TY
(Arrested here)
[23:55:52]SAY: Louis Cypher/Lonestar827 : You guys need the Great Will in your life
[23:55:59]SAY: Talos Valcoran/KorPhaeron : THEY ARE SWARMING OLDMAN
[23:55:59]SAY: Louis Cypher/Lonestar827 : And look past race
[23:56:10]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : F-FIG-GH-HT-T ON PAT-TRIOT-TS-S!!!
[23:57:54]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Oldman didnt try to kill me
[23:57:56]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Ssso you know
[23:57:58]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Varg did though
[23:58:00]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : You were being toolboxed
[23:58:02]SAY: Lizzy Ari/Belchinganna : Varg ssstraight up beat my head in
[23:58:04]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : And I pulled you towatrd the brig
[23:58:15]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : Slipped and stole shit
[23:58:24]SAY: Oldman Robustin/ForcefulCJS : Name a baton and cuffs
[23:59:22]ADMIN: saegrimr has banned forcefulcjs.
Now, this might be a radical viewpoint, but... what if people didn't do stuff like this as a non-antag? Would that really be so bad?

Well, uh

yes

yes it would be terrible if everyone did their jobs mechanically and nothing else until a Valid Threat came along.

Any criminal can be executed, because only antags can commit crimes without sudden braindeath, and being an antag is a capital offense

Any of the more fun and RP traitor tactics like "incite riot" or "homebrew revolution" would be instantly cut off as the entire crew gets a great big "I HAVE JUST ANNOUNCED MY VALIDITY" in radio

Sec would have nothing to do until an antag appeared

The AI would always be on hand for sec to boltdown antags

The rounds woyuld lose that special something they get when the cells are heaving with squalling greyshirts, the clown is selling sec gear for geonomes, and the AI is too busy screaming at Officer Harmbatons-The-Greys to notice Jimmy Rustle assasinating the captain for his medal.

TheNightingale · Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:09 pm

I'm not advocating a MLG pro three-sixty noscope valid playstyle, just one that doesn't involve punishing others for no raisins. As great as schadenfreude is, it doesn't quite count if you're the one causing it.

I think people get too fixated on the 'game' part of 'roleplaying game', and forget the roleplaying entirely - there are other people besides yourself in the round, and it's nice to treat them with the same courtesy you expect. Executing (with a trial, those are fun) an antag for murdering eight people is fine; killing one for having Syndicate soap isn't quite as honourable. Properly-escalated conflict is one thing, but "gas the liggers race war now" is another entirely.

Then again, you're right in that Sec wouldn't have anything to do but stop antagonists (and hopefully sentence them to due process, not summary executions for carrying a balloon). Perhaps if we had more space carp-like events (ones that threaten the station, and that Security can respond to)? This'd give antagonists a window in which they can do their thing while Security's distracted, at least.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:13 pm #124491

I feel like once in awhile, it can be excused to spice things up... but in all of my observations, CJS is a toxic individual and a general detriment to the community. And I don't remember him always being like this. I remember, perhaps in rose colored glasses, as far less of a colossal asshole and rules lawyer.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:17 pm #124496

The occasional riot is fine, where it happens naturally.
Starting it up for absolutely no reason/general shit stirring fairly often just because "I bored", not so much.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:18 pm #124498

lumipharon wrote:The occasional riot is fine, where it happens naturally.
Starting it up for absolutely no reason/general shit stirring fairly often just because "I bored", not so much.

Exactly.

onleavedontatme · Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:39 am

The concept of "round ruined" continues to mystify me. SS13 is built around things being ruined.

I literally can not understand the people who do the same menial task/job over and over and get upset when something interrupts it.

And then we get into a week long argument over someone said mean words on the radio and dealt 10 damage to an officer as if we were discussing real world crimes.

I get that we need rules to prevent 24/7 random death match but people take shit so seriously and it is mind boggling.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:42 am #124614

Kor wrote:The concept of "round ruined" continues to mystify me. SS13 is built around things being ruined.

I literally can not understand the people who do the same menial task/job over and over and get upset when something interrupts it.

And then we get into a week long argument over someone said mean words on the radio and dealt 10 damage to an officer as if we were discussing real world crimes.

I get that we need rules to prevent 24/7 random death match but people take shit so seriously and it is mind boggling.

This. For some reason people are way too uptight about things. We had some tests with low rules in the past, and in my opinion that worked just fine. But now there seems to be some movement that everything that is mildly "disturbing" to a round needs to be codified and ruled on by admins.

The term "Don't be an asshole" is always misused way too often. The best situations arise from being an asshole. Basically any form of escalation involves both parties being assholes.

peoplearestrange · Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:27 am

I want to ask a question to Oldman as a 3rd party to all this. What was the reasoning for the "lizard racism", what did you hope to add to the round an peoples enjoyment by inciting and possibly sparking a violent reaction?

What I mean is surely you can see that such IC hateful actions are likely to cause a pretty terrible reaction? You strike me as someone intelligent so I assume you did this to stir the pot of the round, to keep things fresh. If so you realise this is why we have antags, its also why admins are also GM's, to stop rounds becoming stale. So why, being non of these things, did you feel you needed to make others game miserable simply for your own enjoyment? Because that is essentially what it boils down to, your fun at the expense of someone else's.

Though to keep this balance I'd also like to point out to Saegmir that you have become some what of a Tyrant. And in some situations this is needed, but giving people time to either talk themselves out or further into their ban should be used more. I understand it can be frustrating when dealing with people who make your life as an admin difficult, but you can't just slap-dash away problems so quickly without consequences. It makes you seem cold for a start.

You two obviously grind against each other, so I'd suggest any future issues with Oldman probably should be redirected to another admin. Not to avoid punishment, but to avoid personal feelings in any issues.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:30 am

peoplearestrange wrote:I want to ask a question to Oldman as a 3rd party to all this. What was the reasoning for the "lizard racism", what did you hope to add to the round an peoples enjoyment by inciting and possibly sparking a violent reaction?

What I mean is surely you can see that such IC hateful actions are likely to cause a pretty terrible reaction? You strike me as someone intelligent so I assume you did this to stir the pot of the round, to keep things fresh. If so you realise this is why we have antags, its also why admins are also GM's, to stop rounds becoming stale. So why, being non of these things, did you feel you needed to make others game miserable simply for your own enjoyment? Because that is essentially what it boils down to, your fun at the expense of someone else's.

Because crew violence and getting security to hunt you down is way more fun than Automaton Simulator 2555

peoplearestrange · Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:33 am

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Because crew violence and getting security to hunt you down is way more fun than Automaton Simulator 2555

Thats pretty much a description of grey-tiding. Something which we all, as a community, have worked hard to move from.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:35 am #124627

The question is what was going on in the round at the time?

Was it a case of Oldman doing these activties after the round has lasted 30+ minutes and nothing of note has happened, or did it takes place 5 minutes after round start.

If the round is dragging on and neither the antagonists nor the admins are making any effort to advance the round, then I would lend some justification (if not a lot) for Oldman at least trying to do something non-lethal that involves people, but if that was not the case and the round barely was underway then I can see any banning or other being justified.

peoplearestrange · Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:38 am

As was mentioned in the ban appeal it was barely 15mins after round start. As you say, if it was 30+mins into the round I could see a bit of shenanigans taking place to liven things up might be acceptable, however there are many more ways to make things "exciting" without singling out, what was essentially , one player.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:53 am #124643

peoplearestrange wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Because crew violence and getting security to hunt you down is way more fun than Automaton Simulator 2555
Thats pretty much a description of grey-tiding. Something which we all, as a community, have worked hard to move from.

Heres the thing, we've gone from one extreme to the other.

From GREY TIDE ALL THE TIME to NO FUN ALLOWED EVER.

Where possible situations should be resolved IC, If they can be resolved IC and you're not being a complete and utter fucking dick then there is no reason for admins to get involved.

peoplearestrange · Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:04 pm

Now now, lets not make a mountain out of a greytide.
This is just one situation, its not as if the game has been changed to be ruled with an iron fist suddenly and no one is enjoying the game.

Of course it be nice if things could be resolved in IC but then its not always that easy to see the knock on effects of doing something thats fun for you (and that might not be fun for others as consequence).

Oldman Robustin · Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:07 am

peoplearestrange wrote:I want to ask a question to Oldman as a 3rd party to all this. What was the reasoning for the "lizard racism", what did you hope to add to the round an peoples enjoyment by inciting and possibly sparking a violent reaction?

What I mean is surely you can see that such IC hateful actions are likely to cause a pretty terrible reaction? You strike me as someone intelligent so I assume you did this to stir the pot of the round, to keep things fresh. If so you realise this is why we have antags, its also why admins are also GM's, to stop rounds becoming stale. So why, being non of these things, did you feel you needed to make others game miserable simply for your own enjoyment? Because that is essentially what it boils down to, your fun at the expense of someone else's.

Though to keep this balance I'd also like to point out to Saegmir that you have become some what of a Tyrant. And in some situations this is needed, but giving people time to either talk themselves out or further into their ban should be used more. I understand it can be frustrating when dealing with people who make your life as an admin difficult, but you can't just slap-dash away problems so quickly without consequences. It makes you seem cold for a start.

You two obviously grind against each other, so I'd suggest any future issues with Oldman probably should be redirected to another admin. Not to avoid punishment, but to avoid personal feelings in any issues.

Enjoyment: Greytiding is fun and there's always something hilarious about a bunch of unarmed idiots getting the better of our heavily armed and armored security force. For security: It's all the fun of hunting down antags without any of the risk, you build camraderie in the security force (as opposed to everyone just wandering off to their department and you don't even remember who your fellow officers are), and you get to live out your authoritarian fantasies while crushing the tide under your jackboot.

It's a flavor of IC entertainment that even the best GM's can't hope to match. It almost always has to be done early because within 10 minutes most of the greyshirts will have suicided or gone braindead.

I also doubt it made anyone's game miserable, there were just as many pro-lizard or anti-racist comments in radio, security rallied around their lizard members, and actual conflict between the crew and security was limited to about 3 assistants and 5 security members. There was no damage to the station, nobody was seriously injured, no high value items were stolen, and the inconvenience to security was roughly on the same level as a janitor who doesn't put up signage (aka most rounds).

I know when I "fight" the tide I usually just walk out of the brig with my hands empty, let them push or slip me a few times, and just keep walking until they get bored. Old greytide would invariably involve smashing open the brig, looting anything that wasn't bolted down, stripping, hurting, or even killing officers... The current version of greytide is so muted and weak that flat out ignoring them is often the best strategy since they can't escalate to violence/major theft/sabotage and are limited to a few actions that barely qualify as harassment or assault. Yet despite the complete and utter lack of serious consequences for security, admins still insist on cracking down out of some automatic reflex. Even in these threads many players and admins continue to act as thought the current version of greytide bears any resemblance to the stuff that existed years ago. In this instance the HOS didn't even want to perma me (he posted in the appeal thread too) and yet Admins feel like this is such a grave offense that intervention is necessary for medium-level crimes. When the admin reaction to a crime is over 100x what the victims felt was appropriate punishment, then maybe, just maybe, the admin intervention was not appropriate.

Like I said before, I don't view this as fun at anyone's expense as long as rules are followed. As security I enjoy tidebusting if I'm not dealing with a greater threat, and as an assistant I was listening to radios to make sure we didn't keep messing with officers if a blob/wizard/traitors/etc. started attacking as well.