[Saegrimr] - Overpoliceing players?

[Royced5]

BYOND: Royced
CHAR: Aaron Werner, often QM.
TIME: 8:00pm Central.
Summery and experiences yadda:
Was playing as a Scientist, so after having turned everything on the station into research levels I broke into security from maintinece to scavege up some supplies, but shortly after a security guard decided to check the armory (despite hiding in a closet) and I get a PM from the moderator Saegrimr asking why I've gone into security.
I explain it's to get higher research levels, to where our conversation devolved quickly into a ban sentence after suggesting that policing how someone plays when the result doesnt cause direct grief ruins the experience.
Now I know I'm no saint, I get myself into shit situations real fast with a big ego and absolutely inhuman clicking skill so I do get repremended. You can just ask Longbow how many times he's had to converse with me over the last few months (making an austim fort in the center of the station and defending it with my life is one fun example). I've been trying to stray away from anything that would directly involve me attacking another player, often not even attacking security post being caught et cetera in attempts to not blow shit out of proportion.

But this Saegrimr guy really doesn't get it.
I even read up through the guidelines on proper administration here on TG, since I've been liking the server a fair bit.

Don't defer players to creating a forum ban request if you can help it. It's a lot easier and quicker to deal with it while the players are still online where you can question them.

Starting the dialogue with a friendly and professional tone will make it more likely that the player will cooperate with you instead of escalating the situation into something nasty.

Upon banning someone, you are placed in charge of ensuring they understand why it is they were banned and are in charge of responding to any ban appeals they should make. Ignoring a ban appeal may lead to the person being unbanned by a headmin. At least have the courtesy to tell them "denied", and WHY. They don't have to agree with you, they just need to know why.

Just a few thinks skipped over, which sure, I'm fine with forgetting a few things, but at the end of the day I wasn't given a reason for my ban. I wasn't told what rule I broke, only that he's upset I broke into security? There wasn't a lack of IC motive, and this isn't a heavy-RP server.

And just as a request, I'd like to get another admins opinion instead of directly having him save face by explaining something after the fact instead of responding to this at the time of its occurence. Take Longbow for instance, if he's willing, because I trust his opinion despite our differences. I don't mind this one singular ban as it does make me cautious but I would like to get shit addressed before someone with a boner goes clicking buttons to prove an unjustified point (from my perspective).

[lumipharon]

Why would he even be ahelping people going into sec?
That's an IC crime at most, even if you break into the armoury (admittedly a severe one).

[Royced5]

Didn't even touch armory. I don't know what this Saegrimr guys' problem is but I see he gets a lot of complaints.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Shitty thing to do, but definitely an IC issue. Beep boop you're a repeat offender stop being a dick.

[VincVsVincent]

I think there's more than just breaking into the armory, I know that Saeg might be a douchebag sometimes but he isn't an amateur.

[Saegrimr]

I was about to reply seriously but then I realized this isn't even a ban appeal, so whatever. Here have the PM logs. Scream your heads off about how i'm hitler.
It was reported that this is a common habit of yours, namely breaking into the armory.
Yes, our server has rules.
Yes, you need to follow them.

[02:15:03]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: Can I ask why you're breaking into the armory?
[02:15:14]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: I'm actually being dragged about.
[02:15:21]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: For breaking into security*
[02:15:31]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: Yes, because you were stopped from breaking into -security- then.
[02:15:37]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: Yea?
[02:15:40]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: So again, why
[02:15:49]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: Security research levels. Everything in here has massive points value.
[02:15:59]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: So you just break in to steal it huh
[02:16:00]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: Anad theres no rule against it, because admins don't police people on this server, do they?
[02:16:07]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: Hahahah are you serious
[02:16:17]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: yea :P
[02:16:20]ADMIN: PM: Saegrimr->Royced: You know this isn't hippie, right?
[02:16:44]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: Why can you just let longbow be the only admin, policeing the nature of players is how you lose them.
[02:17:14]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: I know from years of server administration myself.

[VincVsVincent]

It was reported that this is a common habit of yours, namely breaking into the armory.

Valid tbh

Also if you really want to be unbanned PM a headmin to review your case.

[Saegrimr]

Breaking into the armory as a nonantag is definitely not okay.

[VincVsVincent]

Breaking into the armory as a nonantag is definitely not okay.

With valid I meant as in that the ban was valid if he broke into the armory multiple times.



Edit: I've been warned about the same concept, but it's understandable that you got banned instead of warned, the server had quite some people on it and last time I checked Saeg was the only admin online, he can't warn everyone constantly about everything.

[Shadowlight213]

Breaking into the Armory makes you valid for sec and can be handled IC. However, as with any IC resolvable action, doing it repeatedly moves it to ooc territory. If this is a common habit as a non antag, then I don't see any issue with saegrimr's actions.

[Alex Crimson]

Ive never known any of the items in Sec to have decent research levels. You can max out R&D without ever needing to visit Sec.

If he did this over multiple rounds, what did he do with the stuff he stole? Surely he wasnt stopped every time.

[oranges]

[02:16:44]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: Why can you just let longbow be the only admin, policeing the nature of players is how you lose them.
[02:17:14]ADMIN: PM: Royced->Saegrimr: I know from years of server administration myself.

This was my favourite part

[Kelenius]

So did he actually break into armory?

[Saegrimr]

So did he actually break into armory?

The ahelp I got was [02:12:55] "So, I'm just gunna report this. This aaron werner guy just griefs like, alot. He breaks into places, such as the brig to steal things for "research" while not even being an antag. It's just.. really obnoxious, especially since he does it alot."
When I jumped over there, he was on the ground and being cuffed next to the door of the armory. IC chat logs
[02:13:45]SAY: Unknown/Royced : I know how to lock the armory.
[02:13:50]SAY: Unknown/Royced : Already studied the wires.

And from himself

but shortly after a security guard decided to check the armory (despite hiding in a closet)

So i'm gonna assume he didn't actually make it to the armory this time, but it seems like that's his goal throughout the rounds.

[kevinz000]

Breaking into the armory as a nonantag is definitely not okay.

Saw this happen alot on Sybil, nonantags breaking in and even shooting security with the guns. Maybe you should transfer to Sybil.

[TheNightingale]

Combat shotguns give Combat 6, and are sometimes in the contraband locker; everything else is Combat 4 at most, and Durand/Gygax boards are easier to get and give Combat 5.
Did you consider asking the Warden/HoS/Captain before trying to loot the highest-security area on the station?

[peoplearestrange]

I personally don't think this is "over policing" breaking into the armoury simply to steal stuff for research is incredibly powergamey. If you want stuff, speak to the Warden, HoS, or Captain. This way there is more interaction between players and the chance for interesting things to happen. If you simply run around acting like airlocks are a hindrance and security is a role that might get in the way occasionally you're playing on the wrong sever, even more so that it was Basil where that slides even less.

Also the "I know from years of server administration myself." is completely irrelevant, every server has their own set of rules and code, being in one place doesn't mean you know how it should work around here.

[CPTANT]

I have seen it stated multiple times here in the past that breaking into the armory as a non-antag is an IC issue.

[Steelpoint]

I think the point being made is that while if its a bunch of isolated incidents then sure, but if a player makes a habit of doing it on a regular basis then it moves to ooc territory.

[capi duffman]

I have seen it stated multiple times here in the past that breaking into the armory as a non-antag is an IC issue.

Indeed, and doing it nonstop becomes ooc at some point, like tabling, looting or being an ass.

[Malkevin]

I think the point being made is that while if its a bunch of isolated incidents then sure, but if a player makes a habit of doing it on a regular basis then it moves to ooc territory.

I'd say it really depends on if they complain (either deadchat/ooc bitching or ahelps) about sec killing them for looting the armory or if they fight their way out of the brig constantly is when it goes in OOC territory.

Although I suppose late joining as the first and only sec member to find a busted open and looted armory several rounds in succession sucks.

[Screemonster]

Although I suppose late joining as the first and only sec member to find a busted open and looted armory several rounds in succession sucks.

I had that as a miner for a while, latejoining and finding the mining outpost was a fucking vacuum because this one scientist made a habit of breaking in to process materials himself.

[invisty]

Tbh we shoulda have a policy that makes people valid if they break into a place without any attempt at asking for what they want first. After all, such behaviour contributes nothing to the round and is entirely selfish.

[Saegrimr]

People caught in the armory are 100% valid already, but much like things in the past that made you valid like killing Ian and spamming WGW, people abuse the shit out of it and it becomes more trouble than its worth.

[TheNightingale]

Make it an OOC issue as well as an IC issue; if you do it once, you get warned, and if you do it more than once, you get banned. At the moment, it's okay to do something bad as long as you don't do it all the time, which just leads people to do it every now and then so they can get away with it. It's either acceptable or it's not.

[Malkevin]

Tbh we shoulda have a policy that makes people valid if they break into a place without any attempt at asking for what they want first. After all, such behaviour contributes nothing to the round and is entirely selfish.

We used to have this.

[imblyings]

>- You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.

Its alright malk, i traveled back nearly a year in time to add this to the rules you didn't read, just for you ;^)

[Malkevin]

I meant we had it then lost then it got readded halfway by sticky and I guess you went further.

[Lumbermancer]

So I had a SS13 dream today, that seems to be somewhat relevant. Security received an option to blacklist people, they got tagged with a black griffon icon that showed on hud, and it persisted between shifts. I remember chasing after Pushes and he slipped me outta airlock.

What if, instead of banning for repeating patterns of such IC behavior, admins could instead tag players as shitlers allowing security to quickly identify them, and give more leeway in punishment i.e. you are known slipper and you slipped someone on space lube? Into perma you go. Do you think that would affect their behavior in the long term, proverbially "teaching a lesson" by making the rounds less fun?

[TheNightingale]

Knowing that Emily Ranger likes to slip and kill people won't stop her slipping and killing you. It seems a little meta to me - what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, and metagrudging someone (even if they deserve it) goes against that. That, and anyone who stole a SecHUD or went rogue as a cop (it happens sometimes) could blacklist everyone to make their future rounds much less fun.

Remember, Security players are players too, and whilst most are alright, there are a few who'll just blacklist anyone who runs away whilst being arrested (even if they're an antag with a bag full of Syndie gear, and therefore a very good reason to run).

[Lumbermancer]

If Emily Ranger kills as non antag then she gets banned, that's a different issue entirely. And Admins would blacklist, not sec.

Anyway, I find IC solutions to IC problems more desirable.

[Malkevin]

What? You mean you don't keep a Book of Grudges on your desk as you play spessmens?

[Cobby]

Knowing that Emily Ranger likes to slip and kill people won't stop her slipping and killing you. It seems a little meta to me - what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, and metagrudging someone (even if they deserve it) goes against that. That, and anyone who stole a SecHUD or went rogue as a cop (it happens sometimes) could blacklist everyone to make their future rounds much less fun.

Remember, Security players are players too, and whilst most are alright, there are a few who'll just blacklist anyone who runs away whilst being arrested (even if they're an antag with a bag full of Syndie gear, and therefore a very good reason to run).

It's not meta if they're non-antag except the part where admins have to set it.

Hence why you can talk to someone ICly about how you two fought the cult, but can't brig someone for murderboning past shift.

[John_Oxford]

You could just make it if you break into the armory, your 100% valid to get harm batonned to hell and back

Or any other high security area for that matter.

If your going to steal from the highest security area on the station as a non-antag, its easier if you avoid people who would ahelp about you doing said action. Just my two cents from personal experience

[fofofo21]

Just going to throw this out here,

"Everyone has a license to grief to a very limited extent. You can likely get away with borderline antagonistic behaviour (Never random murder, but stealing from the brig and triggering a manhunt, for example) occasionally, but it's when this becomes a frequent occurrence that people get frustrated and admins start to get involved."

- Rules