/tg/Station 13

So this started with personal disagreement but has now ended up as blanet abuse of power and having complete control over all (bar host) fasets of the /tg/station community.

Currently HG has admin rights over:
The server (as a headmin)
The Code (as git hub admin)
The Forums (as a site admin)
The Wiki (as a wiki admin)

Now of course the issue isnt the power itself (but one might argue that a single person should not be able to control ALL sides of the community), but the extent to which he pushes said power.
We have seen a surge of recent changes pushed massively by them, with either no discussion (such as spacelaw), or very controversial implementation. All of these pushed through changes have used his extrenious powers to further there own gain and arguments. For example banning of people on the wiki, threatening myself with deadmining for changing a wiki article, knowing how to work the PR system in order to push through the changes. The banning of people on the forums for actively disagreeing with him (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 4&p=159876).

I also have to bring up that when the internal headmin elections took place on the admin board, HG created the vote, but did not lock down the ability to change your vote. People very definitely changed there vote when they saw what other people were voting. Then once the voting had be fucked with by seemingly everyone, Shaps was winning. This caused a lock by HG and a "run-off" thread to be made by them again, this time only included himself and Shaps as vote options. I'm not saying theres any manipulation here, but just seems incredibly shady when an admin has control of every aspect.

I've also felt incredibly personally attacked for disagreeing with them, to the point where I feel (though of course its most likely in my head), that the inclusion of admins having to be on IRC (in giant red lettering now) is a direct knock at me (seeing as I dont really enjoy spending time on IRC as its incredibly easy to feel outcast, and doesnt effect the way we admin, infact its often a distraction). Though these are my personal views so have little relating to my overall issues.

This is the future we somehow chose.

Don't look at me, i voted Kor and then Shaps. Shaps you fool, you have doomed us all by stepping down

Well yeah.

HG has his claws in every possible part of the community, zero accountability to anyone and basically does whatever the fuck he feels like on a daily basis when he's not just absent.

Is this news?

I bear no grudges for how the election was handled, doing a runoff vote when there was no clear majority victor (I only was ahead by one vote in the first vote) seems pretty standard, and I forfeited the vote to him of my own volition when the runoff tied. As for the adminbus thing, this has literally always been policy that you're supposed to be in it while you're adminning so that we can communicate with each other if something happens, and the original memo has been up for a while (HBL put it up forever ago, then someone else made it bold, then HG made it narsie text). The memo is there for a good reason, heed it.

I would like to see more communication about the tests and policy and whatnot, or at least a heads up of what's to come for the admins, but I feel like having the other headmins being more active is the key to that, which will hopefully resolve itself through the election

Also he's not a maintainer anymore

I for one welcome our new Granny overlord.

I think it's clear at this point that HG doesn't give a fuck about process.

Sometimes that's a good thing! Sometimes it isn't. In conjunction with absolute power and minimal oversight, it's definitely a bad thing.

Hopefully things will improve when eating contests finish and there are 2 clear people who are in charge of slapping HG when he does something silly.

The fact that he's deleting threads rather than locking them is also cause for alarm- Lock is used for a reason, to maintain accountability. Only reason to use "delete" instead is because you don't want people to see what you don't like.

Shaps wrote: As for the adminbus thing, this has literally always been policy that you're supposed to be in it while you're adminning so that we can communicate with each other if something happens, and the original memo has been up for a while (HBL put it up forever ago, then someone else made it bold, then HG made it narsie text). The memo is there for a good reason, heed it.

It was never a requirement in the memo, it said "Being on adminbus isnt just a good idea, its the best idea"

It also seemed odd to me that I got a personalised message from HG saying
"it is required to be in #adminbus when adminning, based on the frequency of your appearances compared to your connection log it's a safe bet you have not been doing this. tia"

It just seemed odd that they would go to this extent to warn me, or even to look up the logs to call me out on this.


This also isn't the main issue, and I just feel im being attacked there. But whatever.

My main issue, as Drynwyn pointed out, is that they have no accountability or even care for others. The community in there eyes is either their plaything or their test ground.
Put it this way, when people consistently go on a murderbone, or spoil the round for their own needs, without little thought for anyone else, we remove them from the community. But with HG because its there "persona" or whatever, we somehow excuse it?

Historically I don't think its possible for HG to NOT be selected for Head Admin. The fact is the majority of the admins (50% at the very least) continue to vote for HG as a head admin, while MSO has in the past also given his vote to HG. The playerbase itself can't vote for squat since HG's well into being selected for a Headmin position well before the player vote.

HG is the only person on this server or playerbase that could single handedly have removed a entire section of the game, that being Space Law, without repercussions. Anyone else (maybe barring MSO) would not have gotten it through without a fight. HG got it through and has kept it by banning and locking down anyone from doing otherwise. The reason he can do so is BECAUSE of his far reaching authority and position of power within the entire scope of the game.

Also the fact of the matter is I highly doubt anything will come of this at all. Who police's the policeman?

In this case no one, no one in any position to do anything wants to do anything. So nothing will happen until this thread fades into obscurity.

The only thing I'd ask of HG is better communication and transparency with the community. I guess he sort of enjoys the drama though(?).

Currently HG has admin rights over:
The server (as a headmin)
The Code (as git hub admin) Not any more
The Forums (as a site admin) All headmins can get this
The Wiki (as a wiki admin ) All headmins can get this

He's not that much different than other headmins.

I've also felt incredibly personally attacked for disagreeing with them, to the point where I feel (though of course its most likely in my head), that the inclusion of admins having to be on IRC (in giant red lettering now) is a direct knock at me (seeing as I dont really enjoy spending time on IRC as its incredibly easy to feel outcast, and doesnt effect the way we admin, infact its often a distraction). Though these are my personal views so have little relating to my overall issues.

This was a requirement for years since SoS was host. Admins have been yelled at for not doing it before. Nothing new, and it's certainly not just about you.

This caused a lock by HG and a "run-off" thread to be made by them again, this time only included himself and Shaps as vote options.

We've always run runoff votes in our elections here. And it's not like you wouldn't have known, the player vote also got runoff votes. We don't run first-past-the-post here. Again, nothing new.

HG is the only person on this server or playerbase that could single handedly have removed a entire section of the game, that being Space Law, without repercussions.

Lollerderby had to approve it. It's not single-handed.

peoplearestrange wrote:I've also felt incredibly personally attacked for disagreeing with them, to the point where I feel (though of course its most likely in my head), that the inclusion of admins having to be on IRC (in giant red lettering now) is a direct knock at me (seeing as I dont really enjoy spending time on IRC as its incredibly easy to feel outcast, and doesnt effect the way we admin, infact its often a distraction). Though these are my personal views so have little relating to my overall issues.

I would have to agree with this given the whole situation when I was candidated, which I have yet to receive an apology for. ("I don't actually believe xyz" is not an apology.) NINJA EDIT: I have now. Posting in feedback forums: it accomplishes shit!

I've felt pressured to apologize for things as small and inconsequential as giving people cat ears, but guess what? I apologized, because I'm an adult and sometimes adults have to put on the big girl panties and do that. Also, I have literally never witnessed anything in #adminbus that affected admin matters; 90% of the time the only chat comes from bots. There are enough admins on at any given time -- often 8+ -- that asay is by far the better option if you need to ask about anything.

That said, I think a lot of this rests on the other headmins as well. Supposedly a lot of the changes mentioned were agreed upon by a majority of headmins. You'd never know this because they've said next to nothing until drama happened and forced their hand. Maybe the next set of headmins will be better about this, but honestly I can only recall one headmin who was ever transparent about this shit (Ikarrus, in case anyone's wondering), so I have my doubts.

Ikarrus wrote: He's not that much different than other headmins.

Except other headmins recently havent been wiki admins, forum admins and also coders.
Also my main issue is more the way they use said power. MSO effectively has absolute power, yet we never question it because they actually don't abuse or even use it that much other than for maintenance and such.

Steelpoint wrote:Also the fact of the matter is I highly doubt anything will come of this at all. Who police's the policeman?

In this case no one, no one in any position to do anything wants to do anything. So nothing will happen until this thread fades into obscurity.

I know, and ultimately HG will do whatever the fuck they want. And will probably either not reply here or simply lock/delete this as well (though I stand to be corrected of course).

Its more a case in point of making my issues with them known and hopefully not feeling alone in this enough for them to consider some points or maybe even change the way they administrate perhaps.

Except other headmins recently havent been wiki admins, forum admins and also coders.

All they have to do is ask.

I was a wiki admin during my time as Headmin. I never asked for forum admin because I was already a Global Mod. But Anon3 was a forum admin while he was headmin because he asked for it.

HG isn't a headcoder any more, and as far as I'm concerned having a headmin who knows how to code is a good thing.

There are some legitimate complaints here PAS, but they're getting bogged down by false assumptions here just to try and defame HG further.

Ikarrus wrote:All they have to do is ask.

And then hope anyone gets around to it. Half the time the candidate/staffing log threads aren't even updated.

bandit wrote:

Ikarrus wrote:All they have to do is ask.

And then hope anyone gets around to it. Half the time the candidate/staffing log threads aren't even updated.

These are administration problems.

Hosting issues are handled by MSO and Jordie, and they're collectively active enough and have always been timely with any requests I've had.

I think this entire thread can be summed up by one of gran-gran's great quotes:

"you live in my universe, normie"

Ikarrus wrote:The only thing I'd ask of HG is better communication and transparency with the community. I guess he sort of enjoys the drama though(?).

Is this a rhetorical question?

His previous tenors of headcoder and headminship have largely consisted of him forcing in changes that piss off the entire community and then disappearing for months on end.

Don't forget this is the bloke that when the coderbus/server rift was at its worse (largely due to Paprika being a cunt and coderbus not publicly denouncing him at all) instead of trying to calm the situation he delivers the infamous line "The separation of code base and server is absolute" to fan the flames even further.


I don't know if half the admin team outright hates the rest of the community or if they simply didn't give their vote any further thought than "this guy's been headmin loads, he must know what he's doing.".

peoplearestrange wrote:And will probably either not reply here or simply lock/delete this as well (though I stand to be corrected of course).

Probably because, as he keeps linking the stickied rules thread for this board...

6. This board is not for forum issues or code issues. Forum issues should be brought up with the current managing administrator via IRC or PM. Code issues should be discussed with the appropriate parties in the matter chosen by their project leads.

Saegrimr wrote:

peoplearestrange wrote:And will probably either not reply here or simply lock/delete this as well (though I stand to be corrected of course).

Probably because, as he keeps linking the stickied rules thread for this board...

6. This board is not for forum issues or code issues. Forum issues should be brought up with the current managing administrator via IRC or PM. Code issues should be discussed with the appropriate parties in the matter chosen by their project leads.

Im not sure why you put that in large text? That not my complaint. My complaint isnt a forum or code issue, my complaint is with HG having little to know communication with anyone and pushing forward their own ideas with no care for the rest of the community as a whole.

Abuse being the keyword in the title. As I have said, and as Ikarrus has pointed out, there are others with equal power who do not behave in the way HG does.

I was implying they wont reply because mostly they dont reply to anything written about them, they simply do not care. Which comes across as pretty narrow-minded.

Not to mention we cannot have a real discussion with everyone involved over pms. IRC might work but this way is more accessible and permanent.

Its in large text because despite being linked multiple times to various people, nobody seems to be reading it.
How about "THIS BOARD IS FOR SPECIFIC INCIDENCES OF IN-GAME ADMIN ABUSE." right there at the top of the sticky? No?

If you want them to reply try doing that whole IRC thing that you make no effort to actually be in. You'd have essentially a bat-phone right onto his screen.

Relegating it to PM's or IRC discussions that almost no one will see is just hiding the issue, this is the best format for people to air their grievances like this

Saegrimr wrote:

peoplearestrange wrote:And will probably either not reply here or simply lock/delete this as well (though I stand to be corrected of course).

Probably because, as he keeps linking the stickied rules thread for this board...

6. This board is not for forum issues or code issues. Forum issues should be brought up with the current managing administrator via IRC or PM. Code issues should be discussed with the appropriate parties in the matter chosen by their project leads.

(dumb text formatting removed)

This is A) a problem with the current forum setup, not the complaint, and B) irrelevant, because the bulk of this complaint involves issues that are neither.

I'm not trying to get people to dismiss their complaints, i'm trying to get them to put them somewhere that will actually get a response. He's already stated he gives zero fucks about what gets posted in feedback. You're pissing in the wind here if you actually want him to reply.

PAS actually did discuss this with HG in IRC prior to this thread.

It's a video game guys

These legalese things weren't written by our forefathers centuries ago they were written by previous dipshit headmins like me just trying to make their lives briefly easier.

Like yeah HG has absolute power and is a cunt on the forums or whatever but at the end of the day it doesn't actually affect you clicking on 2d sprites of people dressed up as future spacecops with a knock-off copyright-avoiding lightsaber.

I'm not invalidating the complaint but on both sides you just need to chill the fuck out. Quoting rules at other admins over issues bigger than the day to day shitters whining they got banned is being way to attached to a google document written by some half-awake nerds a year ago.

HG is an oldfag and has ever right to what he lays claim on
That said, admins voted for him so this is the future we chose

I WARNED YOU FOOLS

BUT DID YOU LISTEN TO MY RAVINGS?

NO

THIS IS THE FUTURE YOU CHOSE

Seriously though just deadmin him once and for all. He's been a total cuck for forever, I have no idea how people keep forgetting about his abysmal record.

i agree that HG is infamous for being more than a little bit of an asshole but this thread will do absolutely nothing to change it. he actively believes and enforces his "not your coderbus" spheal, and headmins will always vote for each other/their own changes.

still waiting on thread deletion.

Just fire him from adminbus. He's like, one of the major examples of admins just wanting to vote for their buddies regardless of if they're massive douchebags who make inane decisions and then hide behind a wall of silence and their own power when people get mad.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Just fire him from adminbus.

what

Deadmin him? I thought that was pretty clear.

Please lets not let this run away, I actually want a discussion here.

Im well aware that HG will not loose out on anything because of this or is unlikely for anything to become of this. But I'd like to thing HG does have reasoning for any of this, that they have the servers best intrest in mind and that there is some kind of plan here. But my issue is I dont feel like that is the case, they seem to be shaping the server to the way they enjoy it, or simply its a power thing and they just like being in charge.

Im not sure why they're afraid of feedback or wear the tag of "I dont care" it doesnt seem particularly... forward moving. But I'd like to think they do actually care about this place, otherwise why else are they here?

TLDR: Im not calling for deadmin or anything drastic or dramatic. Im calling for them to actually listen to feedback and remove their fingers from their ears.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Deadmin him? I thought that was pretty clear.

And who do you think will do that? MSO is pretty much the only person that can make that kind of call.

Because it's just a big power fantasy to them? Seriously, like after they lost their headmin position they fell off the face of the earth for like a year, literally never getting on, only coming back in time to pick up someone else's headmin seat and then promptly get voted headmin again. I don't think that's just a coincidence.

And if MSO is the only one that can do it, rally him. There's plenty of good reasons to do it, as evidenced here.

If I had any position of authority in all of this, I would have removed him from power so fast he'd catch fire. Pushing unpopular changes is one thing, but he more or less permabanned me from the forums for daring to say that he was a shitty admin (he put me on moderator approval needed indefinitely. I had to fight just to get an appeal up). That alone is grounds to sack him.

I posted a complaint thread too, but he deleted it.

do you guys remember when hornygranny rallied his coderfriends to demand that we oust Errorage from the community for having control over the forum because Errorage was "power hungry" and "had too much control"? How they tried to snipe anyone who would dare code for tgstation without their permission and make their OWN server out of spite, and only came back because Erro stepped down to go live his life instead of dealing with the harassment and they got upset that no one was actually playing on their server?

I've been telling folks that Hornygranny is just a powertripping goon for like fifteen fucking years now and everyone goes "well sometimes he actually fucks over someone who deserves it" like that excuses his behavior. Yeah, and maybe someone who got gassed in Auschwitz was a real cunt, so Mengele should get a pass.

This post might get deleted.

Luke Cox wrote:If I had any position of authority in all of this, I would have removed him from power so fast he'd catch fire. Pushing unpopular changes is one thing, but he more or less permabanned me from the forums for daring to say that he was a shitty admin (he put me on moderator approval needed indefinitely. I had to fight just to get an appeal up). That alone is grounds to sack him.

I posted a complaint thread too, but he deleted it.

Not that I agree with HG's handling of that situation, but they've (seemingly) been perfectly happy with discourse so long as it's kept civil.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:If I had any position of authority in all of this, I would have removed him from power so fast he'd catch fire. Pushing unpopular changes is one thing, but he more or less permabanned me from the forums for daring to say that he was a shitty admin (he put me on moderator approval needed indefinitely. I had to fight just to get an appeal up). That alone is grounds to sack him.

I posted a complaint thread too, but he deleted it.

Not that I agree with HG's handling of that situation, but they've (seemingly) been perfectly happy with discourse so long as it's kept civil.

I'm not angry with his tone, I'm angry with him blatantly abusing his power to silence dissent. As I said in the appeal, I had zero bans, warnings, or even post deletions on the forums. I make two posts, one saying I couldn't wait for his term to be up and one calling him out for not making a poll on the test thread (which MSO even un-deleted), and he puts me on moderator approval only indefinitely (which is effectively a permaban). When I PMed him about it, he ignored me.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:do you guys remember when hornygranny rallied his coderfriends to demand that we oust Errorage from the community for having control over the forum because Errorage was "power hungry" and "had too much control"? How they tried to snipe anyone who would dare code for tgstation without their permission and make their OWN server out of spite, and only came back because Erro stepped down to go live his life instead of dealing with the harassment and they got upset that no one was actually playing on their server?

I've been telling folks that Hornygranny is just a powertripping goon for like fifteen fucking years now and everyone goes "well sometimes he actually fucks over someone who deserves it" like that excuses his behavior. Yeah, and maybe someone who got gassed in Auschwitz was a real cunt, so Mengele should get a pass.

This post might get deleted.

Thank you fucking Aggro Crag

god damn exactly.

I think you're missing the point that his behaviour is being enabled by lollerderby

If you have to look for where the blame game stops, it's right there.

He has a two to one majority on headmin votes as Jordie already pointed out in an earlier thread, none of this has been without the majority of headmin agreement it's just both of them fail to communicate this with everyone.

Make sure you vote in the player election.

Also colour me biased but I don't think anyone who is an admin or headmin should have the ability to supress someones posting ability, it should be a neutral set of forum admins

oranges wrote:Also colour me biased but I don't think anyone who is an admin or headmin should have the ability to supress someones posting ability, it should be a neutral set of forum admins

Strongly seconding this. Same needs to go for the wiki.

The wiki holds important admin documents like the rules, though, that need to be moderated by the admins.

I'm liking this conversation about separating out forum moderation. Can we split it off into a policy thread?

The fact that HG has been online this entire time and has made no attempt to justify or defend his actions is pretty telling

If he doesn't say anything he can't make himself look bad

Super Aggro Crag wrote:do you guys remember when hornygranny rallied his coderfriends to demand that we oust Errorage from the community for having control over the forum because Errorage was "power hungry" and "had too much control"? How they tried to snipe anyone who would dare code for tgstation without their permission and make their OWN server out of spite, and only came back because Erro stepped down to go live his life instead of dealing with the harassment and they got upset that no one was actually playing on their server?

Do you remember when Errorage, after going on a series of increasingly angry tirades on the forums and wiki, decided to secretly permaban 6 people for no reason besides "it's the PURGE OF SHIT," for reasons including "criticizing his tirades" and "offering to take over hosting," and would not listen to arguments otherwise? I sure do. Don't drag this into the argument, the only reason it's relevant is for its increasingly ironic parallels.

Would the elected headmin be in any position to end his bullshit?

The elected headmin will hold just as much authority as HG does. Whether he uses it is up to his own discretion.