[ForcefulCJS] Desk drawer - 48 hour joban for defending brig

[Deskdrawer]

Byond account and character name: Deskdrawer - Desk Drawer

Admin: ForcefulCJS

Time incident occured: 1:00 AM PST, 8/2/2016

Detailed summary: My job was warden. Clown with security access entered the brig lobby, this already set me off because earlier someone had emagged into the right side of brig (Boxstation) from maint, so it was obvious traitors were loose. I attempted to disable the clown, and moved from the armory area to the lobby area to cuff him and attempted to several times. The clown got back up in front of me, I disabled again, clown got back up. Assuming it was a potential traitor or ling, I went lethal and killed the clown. I tried to pull the clowns body into the armory area to be assessed later by me and the captain, but the HoP entered and removed the clowns body before I had a chance to. It's important to note the reason the clown kept getting back up was due to a golem next to him, picking him back up, this is entirely my bad, I didn't notice the messages the golem was picking him back up, but to be fair I saw a clown that was constantly getting back to his feet after being stunned, who ALSO had security access and an ID that showed as a question mark on my secHUD.

ForcefulCJS contacted me asking about the situation, which I then explained. We went back and forth, no disrespect towards each other, and he came to the decision a job ban of 48 hours was appropriate. I simply don't believe it was. The clown was revived and welcomed back to the armory to collect his things, however he never did, but he was revived. No permanent life was lost, no gibbing took place, I didn't hide any bodies, I made an honest long attempt to stun him first, and just by missing the text that the golem was picking him back up, I escalated from nonlethal to lethal, again assuming the clown was somehow resisting stuns. When I admitted missing the text to ForcefulCJS, he didn't seem to waiver his opinion, and the ban stuck. I don't believe a person that made an honest mistake, when the armory was emagged before, when a clown with security access enters the brig and won't go down to stuns, should be jobbanned. This is not a ban appeal, this is just to hope in the future bans do not occur for defending the brig or escalating force appropriately. It's also not an attack on him as a person, he claimed during the ahelps I only showed an intent to argue the decision

"Admin PM from-ForcefulCJS: You really haven't demonstrated any intent to wanting to learn from this. All you've done is threaten to complain/appeal/argue why you were in the right. As for your intentions, I judge them by your actions, not by what you're telling me after I've already dropped the ban."

This is untrue, I just stated I was going to lodge a complaint because I feel he was in the wrong in this situation.

[Oldman Robustin]

You went after the HOP for even trying to clone the clown and during our ahelp I saw that they had been brigged. So it's hardly fair for you to say "No harm he got cloned" when until we spoke you were convinced the clown was a ling or traitor and expressed no intent or desire to see them revived.

This was a secban because you resorted to lethals way too fast, if you know that getting up from stuns is a sign of traitors or lings, then you should know what it looks like when someone is shaking someone up from a stun. The clown hadn't demonstrated any hostility and was gunned down by you simply because a golem was trying to help him up. The message here was to slow down and not be so quick to empty a laser into a clown when there are obvious signs that they are not guilty of anything more than entering the brig.

You finally said "woops my bad' long after I had dropped the ban after you argued against it, there was nothing you said to me that convinced me this wouldn't happen again without some form of punishment. Seems like the ban is already having its intended effect and you'll be more careful before gunning down crew in the future.


Edit: You also posted this in admin complaints. There's a forum for ban appeals, this isn't it.

[Deskdrawer]

You finally said "woops my bad' long after I had dropped the ban after you argued against it, there was nothing you said to me that convinced me this wouldn't happen again without some form of punishment. Seems like the ban is already having its intended effect and you'll be more careful before gunning down crew in the future. Edit: You also posted this in admin complaints. There's a forum for ban appeals, this isn't it.

Firstly, I already admitted to my fault in not seeing the text he was being shook, so I'm not sure how you took in you had no course but to jobban for not seeing text, especially when I gave copious amounts of stuns first. Again, had I intended to just murderbone some clown, I would have just shot him lethal to begin with. But let's be honest, when I see someone in brig, after brig was emagged, getting up after being stunned next to me, when trying to cuff him, I'm less interested in the shake texts and more interested in the fact he's getting back up constantly, next to me, in brig, a potential traitor or ling. Anyone knows this is dangerous. Second, this isn't a ban appeal, I stated that already at the end of my post, I have no interest in being job unbanned and will ride out the full 48 hours, I just don't want it to happen again to anyone else.

[Oldman Robustin]

You finally said "woops my bad' long after I had dropped the ban after you argued against it, there was nothing you said to me that convinced me this wouldn't happen again without some form of punishment. Seems like the ban is already having its intended effect and you'll be more careful before gunning down crew in the future. Edit: You also posted this in admin complaints. There's a forum for ban appeals, this isn't it.

Firstly, I already admitted to my fault in not seeing the text he was being shook, so I'm not sure how you took in you had no course but to jobban for not seeing text, especially when I gave copious amounts of stuns first. Again, had I intended to just murderbone some clown, I would have just shot him lethal to begin with. But let's be honest, when I see someone in brig, after brig was emagged, getting up after being stunned next to me, when trying to cuff him, I'm less interested in the shake texts and more interested in the fact he's getting back up constantly, next to me, in brig, a potential traitor or ling. Anyone knows this is dangerous. Second, this isn't a ban appeal, I stated that already at the end of my post, I have no interest in being job unbanned and will ride out the full 48 hours, I just don't want it to happen again to anyone else.

You only stunned him twice before resorting to lethals, thats not copious.

Second, you made a mistake and it got someone killed, that doesn't mean you didn't break the rules.

Third, you've been banned for lying to admins before, your story and how you spoke to me changed significantly throughout our conversation. First you told me the clown had shot at you, then when I confirmed he hadn't touched you - you went to the trespass w/unstunnability story. With that story I told you the golem had shaken him up and you didn't seem to care, clown deserved it, etc. - then when I gave you the ban suddenly you change your tone and act like it was all a big misunderstanding. I'm not inclined to take your "mistake" at face value when its something you only acknowledged once the ban was given.

[lollerderby]

I don't think asking security officers to be able to tell the difference between shaking and adrenaline is unreasonable.

[Krusvik]

This is less a punishment, and more encouraging you to do better in the future and demonstrate further situational awareness.

This is not a ban appeal, this is just to hope in the future bans do not occur for defending the brig or escalating force appropriately.

I do not believe the situation escalated appropriately, it was happenstance and hasty guesswork. Proper escalation would be responding with force when met with force, or serious, immediate intent to cause harm, E.G., bringing a bomb into the brig.

[Deskdrawer]

You only stunned him twice before resorting to lethals, thats not copious

This is untrue, I was using a disabler, he went down and got back up several times, I'm sure there's some way to see that in the logs. It's why I assumed something was up, after hitting him so many times, and again, access, and again brig being broken into before.

I don't think asking security officers to be able to tell the difference between shaking and adrenaline is unreasonable.

I agree, I admitted my fault already, the issue is, will bans be standard for this in the future? I've ahelped worse situations than this and the guys didn't get any form of real punishment besides being told to revive me, which I'm quite fine with as long as no permanent life is lost. The clown didn't lose anything, was revived, once more, it's not like I was trying to hide the guys body or anything. I can totally understand repeat offenses, but a situation where hindsight is 20/20 and nothing was lost but time, something a clown has an abundance of, I just don't think bans should be the standard unless it's a repeat case. Again, perhaps if he was murdered and hidden / gibbed / prevented from being able to continue the round in some way.

I mean shit, I've seen assistants straight murder people and then immediately clone em and it's all kosher.

[lollerderby]

Varies from admin to admin, but if you admit you're at fault then why are you making an admin complaint over a two day jobban? He could have not jobbanned you, but if the ban was valid this seems like unimportant hairsplitting.

[Deskdrawer]

Varies from admin to admin, but if you admit you're at fault then why are you making an admin complaint over a two day jobban? He could have not jobbanned you, but if the ban was valid this seems like unimportant hairsplitting.

I just think the variance from admin to admin paints a hard to follow picture for players. If your experience with 90% of the admins is one way, and your experience with a couple others are vastly different, then what's the standard? If there's no standard, what's the point of having rules to begin with? Really not trying to play this up super dramatic or anything, it's just kinda weird to do something, expecting it all to be kosher because no harm no foul, no perm deaths, no items stolen, and then end up with a job ban when there's no real issue. That's my only interest, if there's no real incident why the need to punish players? Again I can understand repeat offenses, obvious murderboning, blatantly breaking rules, but it just wastes everyone's time, admins, players, players in game who are supported by the players in the ahelp, over something that was solved the moment the victim was revived. Keep in mind I don't think it's a free pass to murder people and revive them, as I said repeat offenders and all that, but I don't believe an honest admitted mistake is anywhere the same as someone who was obviously breaking the rules or trying to get away with murder.

[lollerderby]

The degree of punishment is what varies, not the policy, unless you're suggesting that other admins would find these actions acceptable and the situation not actionable. A minor variation is not problematic, either way you should be striving to avoid doing the bad.

[Oldman Robustin]

Again, the clown recovering due to admin intervention (he was in the morgue, passed over for cloning, when he ahelped) is not really ground for mitigating your behavior. If an admin is cleaning up your mess you can't really turn around and say "Oh see, no harm no foul right?!"

The point of the ban is that next time maybe you'll be more careful about lasering people to death so that if an admin isn't on we won't have players being unjustly removed from the round on account of your behavior.

Normal punishment for most admins is a 24hr ban for invalid kills for perspective. That keeps you out of 100% of the game for a day, a secban keeps you out of 20% of the game for 2 days. Most people would consider a 48hr secban to be a very, very mild punishment.

[Deskdrawer]

Again, the clown recovering due to admin intervention (he was in the morgue, passed over for cloning, when he ahelped) is not really ground for mitigating your behavior. If an admin is cleaning up your mess you can't really turn around and say "Oh see, no harm no foul right?!"

The point of the ban is that next time maybe you'll be more careful about lasering people to death so that if an admin isn't on we won't have players being unjustly removed from the round on account of your behavior.

Normal punishment for most admins is a 24hr ban for invalid kills for perspective. That keeps you out of 100% of the game for a day, a secban keeps you out of 20% of the game for 2 days. Most people would consider a 48hr secban to be a very, very mild punishment.

There was no harm and no foul, just recently I was killed in sec, and hid in a locker by someone, and the ahelps results were me getting revived, that's fine and I agree with it if it was invalid. The difference was the guy had me in cuffs and lasered me to death because he didn't want to deal with me, not because he thought I was a traitor that was resisting stuns. The point of the ban is kinda lost at any rate, I admitted fault, the clown was fine, acting like the ban was "maybe you'll be more cafeful next time" is kinda bogus because I already admitted to needing to be more careful. Again, I don't care about the ban to me, this isn't an appeal, I just think it's unfair if sec players have to walk on security eggshells, there's keeping order and then there's rule nerfing security. A traitor can, in an instant of oversight, take out someone with any number of tools. When you're alone in a brig that was emagged earlier and there's a golem and clown, both with unauthorized access in there, and you see the clown getting back up constantly, it's like what then? That's honestly wrong to step it up? What if it were a traitor resisting stuns and used "insert traitor / ling items and abilities here" when he got back up? What if the golem was in on it? You don't know, that's the entire point, hindsight is 20/20.

I don't think security should be able to just wax people, and it's not what I did, but I think you should also give the benefit of the doubt when it's clear there was a solid attempt to bring the person in nonlethally, given the odd circumstances. I don't think security should be banned for putting security's best interest first is all.

[DyslexicGrampa]

CJS at it again I see. I see no harm nor foul here, just my opinion. Not sure why CJS got admin in the first place, he is an irrational prick now as he was before but w/e.

[Ikarrus]

RIP CJS

[Shaps-cloud]

Probably a bit of a jump to kill the clown like that but I would have probably just left a stern note, relevant admin is gone now so I'll just close this on that note.