NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Timrod · Post by **Timrod** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:12 am #15705

I was just in a round with a chain of events that went exactly like this.

I was an assistant. I broke into EVA, got a spacesuit and jetpack, and was on my way to space. A shitty sec officer arrests me, drags me to the brig, and brigs me for 8 minutes. As soon as my sentence is up, the Warden comes, steals all of my items for personal use. As soon as I get out of the brig cell, once timer is up, he tases me and sticks me back in the brig for another two minutes. Once that sentence is up, he refuses to let me go from the brig multiple times. I got out finally and welderbombed the brig, because at this point security is purposely being shit. I adminhelped it at the re-brigging, and NikNakFlak answered, ruling that anything Security does is automatically an IC issue.

Security is supposed to be held to a higher standard. That's why they can't be antags. Yet when they play shitcurity, they are never, ever punished.

Log:

Spoiler:

NikNak has made nothing but shit decisions in the past, and as such I think he should be de-adminned immediately for condoning shitcurity.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:21 am #15708

If you were arrested by Security for committing a crime, Security has every right to remove every personnel item on you without needed justification. Generally however items are removed that assisted in committing this crime, from what I can tell you were arrested for breaking into EVA (A crime) and had your tools (Which were likely used to break in) and space suit (the item stolen) removed, which is perfectly valid.

Furthermore, from what I can tell the HoS ordered your sentence increased before he went MIA in a fight with a "Sith Dark Lord" in the chapel, so I can assume Security had their hands full on other matters, so I'm assuming the Warden acted on the HoS's last order and increased your sentence.

All I'm getting from this is a classic case of "I broke into somewhere and Shitcurity arrested me". Space Law is a guide line, not a requirement, your sentence was valid if not excessive.

Pandarsenic · Post by **Pandarsenic** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:16 am #15716

Ctrl+F "with the handcuffs"

Holy shit man you hit the cell windows 87 times with your damn cuffs? Seriously?

Also "PM to-Admins: Okay then. I will be going HoS next round and permabrigging all assistants because by your logic that is perfectly legal."

F'real?

scaredofshadows · Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:43 am

Timrod wrote:I was just in a round with a chain of events that went exactly like this.

I was an assistant. I broke into EVA, got a spacesuit and jetpack, and was on my way to space. A shitty sec officer arrests me, drags me to the brig, and brigs me for 8 minutes.

So far this is all IC with no admin intervention required. 8 minutes for stealing isn't something we want to intervene for, but we will if it's over the top.

Timrod wrote:As soon as my sentence is up, the Warden comes, steals all of my items for personal use.

What exactly did the Warden steal? The Warden should have taken your spacesuit and jetpack back to EVA and asked an engineer to fix the damage to the windows. I don't want Security to be allowed to just loot everything from their prisoners.

Timrod wrote:As soon as I get out of the brig cell, once timer is up, he tases me and sticks me back in the brig for another two minutes. Once that sentence is up, he refuses to let me go from the brig multiple times.

At this point, you should have adminhelped (and it looks like you did so). I don't want Security to be allowed to stick a prisoner back in a cell for another sentence and/or refuse to allow people to leave the brig after a sentence is up. I would normally classify these things as rule 1 violations and cause for potential security jobbans.

Timrod wrote:I got out finally and welderbombed the brig, because at this point security is purposely being shit. I adminhelped it at the re-brigging, and NikNakFlak answered, ruling that anything Security does is automatically an IC issue.

You can't simply welderbomb the brig after you receive a response which you don't find satisfactory from an admin. Document what has happened and bring it to me or post it here on the forum. Don't do rule 1 violating things such as welderbombing an area and exposing hallways to space.

Timrod wrote:Security is supposed to be held to a higher standard. That's why they can't be antags. Yet when they play shitcurity, they are never, ever punished.

I've jobbanned more people from security than every other role combined. There is nothing that makes me angrier than security players abusing access to the brig and weapons. However, in this situation, you have become as bad as the security players by using a welderbomb and potentially killing people who are uninvolved with your little conflict through exposure to space.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:55 am #15722

I investigated into this matter. I told Timrod that being arrested for stealing a space suit and them confiscating his tools and insulated gloves, the things he used to break in, was allowed. The warden then took them and wore them. This is kind of shitty. I Pm'd the warden and first asked for the initial brigging reason. He gave a valid answer of you stealing the space suit. I told him that wearing them was a bit shitty. After Timrod's initial time ran out, he ran over the the warden and demanded his items back. The warden instead flashed him, and put him the cell for 2 minutes more. Now, that was kind of shitty, but it was also two minutes, and at this point I would mostly declare it an in character issue. Tim responded by hitting the window with his cuffs, repeatably. After he was finally released, he complained heavily about his backpack and internals being also taken. Again, a minor annoyance at best and kind of shitty from security's point of view, but nothing really out of line and certainly nothing to get banned over. Later, Timrod welderbombs the brig in retaliation. I had given the warden a minor slap on the wrist for his actions such as wearing confiscated items and not returning a backpack, but it was all so minor, it didn't even warrant a note. Tim's response was also kind of shitty. In the end, The warden got a slap on the wrist, and Timrod welderbomed the brig and got brigged, again.

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:03 pm #15805

miggles wrote:Brigging someone for 10 minutes, [...] Timrod was a useless assistant who just wanted to fuck off into space and instead he got a needlessly long brig sentence [...]

Premise: 8 minutes was a long brig sentence for breaking into EVA (Major Tresspass) and stealing a spacesuit (Theft).

Fact: Major Trespass - 5 minute recommended sentence.
Fact: Theft - 5 minute recommended sentence.
Fact: Timrod was originally brigged for 8 minutes
Fact: 5 + 5 = 10.
Fact: 10 - 8 = 2.
Fact: Timrod was originally brigged for 2 minutes less than the recommended amount of time for his crimes.
Opinion: "needlessly long brig sentence"

Conclusion: Warden arrested a criminal; gave a shorter than recommended sentence.

And to preempt the response that "He was actually brigged for 10 minutes cause of [...]" Then the conlcusion above would be. "Conlcusion: Warden arrested a criminal; gave the recommended sentence."

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:52 pm #15809

miggles wrote:Stealing from EVA is a crime, but it also means nothing.

What is the purpose of this statement?

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:56 pm #15810

NikNakFlak wrote:Tim's response was also kind of shitty. In the end, The warden got a slap on the wrist, and Timrod welderbomed the brig and got brigged, again.

I disagree. Timrod got a slap on the wrist.

His justification for welderbombing the brig was "I'm mad that I was brigged for breaking a crime, had my tool confiscated that I used to commit the crime, and was given the recommended brig sentence."

How on earth does committing a crime and getting punished for it justify welder bombing the brig? Don't we ban for greytide shit like this?

It is blatently obvious that Timrod was mad and we let him do things against the rules cause he was mad. Timrod you made a post pointing out that NikNakFlak was lenient with you. You should really calm down.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:33 pm #15844

miggles wrote:the purpose of that statement is that it doesnt fucking matter that he stole from EVA because there is nothing dangerous in EVA and he's just an annoying assistant who, if left unattended, would have left the round and not bothered security at all.
we can talk space law all you want but it does not change the fact that ruining someone's round for a minor theft, which does not in any way shape or form negatively affect any other player's round, is Not Very Nice.

How exactly is a sentence recommended by space law and taking away somebody's tools ruining somebody's round?

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:36 pm #15845

miggles wrote:the purpose of that statement is that it doesnt fucking matter that he stole from EVA because there is nothing dangerous in EVA and he's just an annoying assistant who, if left unattended, would have left the round and not bothered security at all.
we can talk space law all you want but it does not change the fact that ruining someone's round for a minor theft, which does not in any way shape or form negatively affect any other player's round, is Not Very Nice.

The problem here is that you are making speculations on what the player was going to do. None of us knew what he was going to do with the Jetpack, SpaceSuit, and toolbelt. For you to even make that claim is outrageous as none of us can read minds or predict the future.

Your justifications here are that
A.) Jetpack/Spacesuit not dangerous so okay to steal.
B.) EVA has nothing dangerous in it so okay to break into.

The problem here is that the bar/kitchen/medbay/vault/chapel/library/etc also have nothing dangerous in them. As follows:
A.) bar/kitchen/medbay/vault/chapel/library/etc has nothing dangerous in it so okay to break into.

You keep making these claims without thinking them through.

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:41 pm #15849

miggles wrote:we can talk space law all you want but it does not change the fact that ruining someone's round for a minor theft, [...]

According to space law it is "Theft" not "Minor Theft".

miggles wrote:[...]which does not in any way shape or form negatively affect any other player's round

You have absolutely no way of knowing this please stop lying to us.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:43 pm #15850

I do not see a single thing done by security that would be shitty let alone bannable, and a complaint against niknak is just outright stupid.

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:12 pm #15859

miggles wrote:rock you should improve your reading comprehension as he said he was going to space in the OP.
even implying that there is anything you can do with a spacesuit other than that is outrageous and you're only going out of your way to try and insult me.
additionally i said minor theft, not petty theft. petty theft is a crime in space law, "minor" theft only reflects the actual value of the items being stolen based on my opinion.
also, every room you've mentioned there, aside from the vault, involved another player's job and their workspace - EVA is nobody's workspace, nor is the vault. you're not going to hurt anyone (other than perhaps yourself, if you shock yourself on the door) by stealing things from them. hacking into those other places is intruding on someone else's space. (as an addendum: who the hell breaks into the library)

miggles wrote:rock you should improve your reading comprehension as he said he was going to space in the OP.

Speculation - We have no idea what he actually planned on doing. What he said he was going to do and what he would have done are different things.

miggles wrote:additionally i said minor theft, not petty theft. petty theft is a crime in space law, "minor" theft only reflects the actual value of the items being stolen based on my opinion.

It is nice to have opinions, but we need rules to work off of. http://www.tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law#Major_Crimes crime 308.

miggles wrote:we can talk space law all you want but it does not change the fact that ruining someone's round for a minor theft, which does not in any way shape or form negatively affect any other player's round, is Not Very Nice.

You state here that "theft does not in any way shape or form negatively affect any other player's round." which is a lie; you simply cannot know such a thing.

miggles wrote:even implying that there is anything you can do with a spacesuit other than that is outrageous and you're only going out of your way to try and insult me.

Take the spacesuit and toolbelt to outside of the permabrig and free criminals.
Take the spacesuit and toolbelt to outside of the HoS office or armoury and steal dangerous from there.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:30 pm #15863

OK, Yes, space law saw to do blah. I get it.

Now, let me ask you, if there was a trend for sec officers to use space law as a guideline, and use practical judgment over how much of a crime something really was, regardless of space law's guidelines, and use that to determine what, if any, brig sentence they got. Don't you think it might be a bit annoying for someone to be more hardass about it? Don't you think that might make them seem shitty, from the graysuit's view point, when they have that contrast.

Or, in other-words:

Some times sec will brig for 8 to 10 minutes for breaking in to eva for a suit, and steal their tools, and sometimes sec will just tell them to knock it the fuck off and make them put the shit back.

Witch of those two sec play styles do you think seems less shitty to the graysuit?

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:34 pm #15864

Suppose he is telling the truth. Then he got arrested for stealing a spacesuit and breaking into EVA.
Suppose he isn't telling the truth. Then he got arrested for stealing a spacesuit and breaking into EVA.

Suppose he is telling the truth. Then you are right that he would have caused no harm.
Suppose he is not telling the truth. Then you might be wrong and he may have caused harm.

The problem here is that we simply cannot know if he was telling the truth or not. The security guard stopped him before that was possible.

miggles wrote:you're only going out of your way to try and insult me

This is not true.

miggles wrote:[...] in this conversation alone you've displayed a habit of claiming that people are lying, three times already.

I'm making the claim that you do not have the ability to read minds.

Post by **Rockdtben** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:36 pm #15865

MrStonedOne wrote:OK, Yes, space law saw to do blah. I get it.

Now, let me ask you, if there was a trend for sec officers to use space law as a guideline, and use practical judgment over how much of a crime something really was, regardless of space law's guidelines, and use that to determine what, if any, brig sentence they got. Don't you think it might be a bit annoying for someone to be more hardass about it? Don't you think that might make them seem shitty, from the graysuit's view point, when they have that contrast.

Or, in other-words:

Some times sec will brig for 8 to 10 minutes for breaking in to eva for a suit, and steal their tools, and sometimes sec will just tell them to knock it the fuck off and make them put the shit back.

Witch of those two sec play styles do you think seems less shitty to the graysuit?

The same can be said about graysuits.

Stealing EVA Suits

Or

Not Stealing EVA Suits

Which of the two assistant play styles do you think seems less shitty to the redsuit?

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:58 pm #15870

You have a fair point there, but between the two, which of the examples is more likely to be detrimental to another person's round.

And can you at least acknowledge how frustrating it might be if you've been playing around the less shitty sec for awhile, to encounter the hardass kind?

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:20 pm #15872

Space suits are one of the more important items that cannot be replaced. They are limited in number and I believe security is right to prevent just anyone from braking in and taking them.

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:57 pm #15883

That's a good point. I think to avoid these situations in the future, assistants should spawn on the derelict instead of the station. This would avoid them not having fun when people prevent them from breaking the law to further their goals.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:57 pm #15884

This could have been simply prevented by the person asking the HoP for access to EVA.

He took a risk by stealing from a high security area.

He got caught doing so, and was brigged for it. The tools used in the process of breaking in were rightfully removed. The second he welderbombed the brig (which I am considering applying a greytide ban for) he was valid for perma even.

The solution to not get brigged is to stop being a fuckwit and commiting crimes or at least be a little discreet about it, and not complaining that you lost. This complaint is completely null.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:47 am #15896

Antonkr wrote:This could have been simply prevented by the person asking the HoP for access to EVA.

The point I'm trying to make to rock and any other hardline spess law types, is that under space law, it is acceptable to remove someone from 25-33% of the round. (avg round length being 30 to 40 mins) for, when it comes down to it, not convincing the hop, captain, or even the CE, to let them have a spess suit.

It is not only acceptable, but standard practice to remove some from a fucking quarter of the round, giving them the longest brig sentence the timers will allow, for not asking for something command staff commonly says yes to.

Does that seem right to you? It doesn't to me.

The point I'll also make to the other admins here, is that the warden should have been (if he wasn't) bwoinked, warned, and noted for wearing the items. That brings it from confiscation (which I think is still shitty, but ic (but something I never allow on first offense as warden/hos/captain)) to theft of personal items, and being a dick about it.

By wearing the items, he was holding his position of power over the player in an antagonistic way, and playing sec in such bad faith ways isn't shouldn't be acceptable.

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:38 am #15904

Then make a policy discussion to remove space law all together, or remap the station so that EVA is publicly accessible. The warden was in the right for doing what he did in terms of brigging them. Wearing the confiscated items was a bit shit, but it's literally in it's entirety an IC issue. You start it IC by stealing a space suit, you finish it IC.

Aurx · Post by **Aurx** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:03 am #15914

Rounds being 30-40 minutes implies shuttle calls at the 20-30 minute mark. That does NOT agree with my experience. 60-70 minutes sounds a lot more reasonable, but hell let me go grab server logs and do the numbers.

EDIT:
Using Tuesday, 24th of June, 2014
Exact second has been dropped
Round start times, in minutes since start of day:

Spoiler:

Round lengths:

Spoiler:

Mean round length: 53.1481481481 minutes
Median round length: 48 minutes

Looks like we're both wrong.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:49 am #15928

If the new "rule/law" was to only give a slap on the wrist to people looting objectively high value areas (Space Suits are at a premium most of the time) then what is there to deter people from attempting to loot whatever they can get to?

These people are going out of their way to break into a area to steal a object they have no need or authorization to use, if they get caught they deserve whatever the Security team gives them. That is the risk you take when you attempt to break into restricted areas and steal things.

Just ask the Captain or HoP for permission and/or access.

Brotemis · Post by **Brotemis** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:10 am #15932

Its surrounded by r-walls and shocked grills and only a select few have access to it. It even has command color doors.

How more secure can you get?

Antonkr · Post by **Antonkr** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:10 pm #15978

Lovecraft wrote:By putting the entrance not on the main hallway would be my guess.

Captain's office, at least on meta has an entrance to the main hallway, so does the bridge. That's a lousy reason for breaking in there. The only people that think that anything wrong was done here are just spouting "b-but so what he commited a crime d-doesn't mean he should be arrested a-admin conspiracy"

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:04 pm #15985

B&E of a Restricted Area: This is breaking into any Security area, Command area (Bridge, EVA, Captains Quarters, Teleporter, etc.), the Engine Room, Atmos, or Toxins research.

Major Trespass: Being in a restricted area without prior authorization. This includes any Security Area, Command area (including EVA), the Engine Room, Atmos, or Toxins Research.

Theft: To steal restricted or dangerous items
Weapons fall into this category, as do valuable items that are in limited supply such as insulated gloves, spacesuits, and jetpacks.
Note that Cargo breaking open crates to illegally arm and armor themselves are guilty of theft.

Stop arguing policy. "But it's not a secure area" It's defined that way in the guide/space law. "But space law isn't a rule, it's a guide" and arresting people for breaking in there isn't a rule either, it's just something that security is allowed to do based on the imaginary law book that defines what is a crime and is not a crime. All in character crimes or course.

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:20 pm #16045

Antonkr wrote:This could have been simply prevented by the person asking the HoP for access to EVA.

I've been detained for getting a space suit even with proper access to EVA, because "Assistants do not need into EVA".

EVA = Extra Vehicular Activities, meaning, fucking off outside in space. Perhaps its time to alter EVA and make it more accessible to those that want to go into space, and have an emergency storage that contains 2-3 suit dispensers used solely for EMERGENCY purposes?

Seriously, for a damn deathtrap of a station with an average population of ~60 people, there are what, 12-13 space suits? Not saying that there should be one for every person, but they should at least be orderable from cargo..

Hornygranny · Post by **Hornygranny** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:17 pm #16594

I think we're done here.

/tg/Station 13

NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Re: NikNakFlak: Condoning Shitcurity

Who is online