Security's representation on Github.

[paprika]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Yeah zipties sure are shitty -- I remember when beepsky printed free handcuffs and you had to manually remove the cuffs from prisoners while keeping them stunned so they didn't steal them. Or did you not know that zip-ties make permabrig processing 10000% easier for that warden role you were saying I didn't know how to play? You can even instantly remove them with wirecutters, leaving behind useless trash that prisoners can't re-use, or be even safer and let prisoners remove their own cuffs, which still breaks them and renders them useless.

BEHOLD, A SEC FEATURE THAT ISNT UNBELIEVABLY SHIT, IS QUALITY OF LIFE WITHOUT BUFFING SEC'S VALIDHUNT RETARDATION, AND FURTHER PROOF MALKEVIN ONCE AGAIN DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HE'S TALKING ABOUT.

In fact the only thing that could make zipties even more of a perfect feature is being able to stack them to make them a more viable sidegrade to handcuffs which are re-usable. One of you fucks should add that, instead of whatever retarded sec thing you thought would make the role better that will just get rejected.

[Malkevin]

Yeah cool.

Make beepsky easier to escape from, because by the time you've got there and found them they've managed to resist out.
Replace half of the sec vendor's reusable cuffs with one use things so security eventually runs out and has to resort to makeshift ruski rapecuffs like the detective at one point had to.

Because throwing people in a cell and buckle cuffing them and then walking off is a good thing, we don't want to interact with the prisoner or the prisoner having a chance at being stupid do we?
Because we want to have several different resist times complicating things so that during interrogations they have an easier time resisting out, because again we just want to throw them in the slammer and forget about them?

[Cheimon]

Removing cuffs from someone safely isn't difficult. Uncuff, stun while halfway through, pick up cuffs, leave.

Zipties can be cut instantly with wirecutters, so they're noticeably worse in most situations where an arrested person has friends. They're also worse if you want to talk to the prisoner, since they're faster to resist out of.

Making beepsky produce zipties instead of metal cuffs was an entirely reasonable change, but zipties aren't better. Criminals could always get hold of restraints anyway, since supplies of cable exist throughout the station.

[paprika]

Make beepsky easier to escape from, because by the time you've got there and found them they've managed to resist out.

Beepsky has a 'detain' option for this very reason. By the time you get there the cirminal could have already run off anyway, even if he had regular cuffs on. Plus he'd get a free pair of cuffs as a souvenir before this change! How nice!

Replace half of the sec vendor's reusable cuffs with one use things so security eventually runs out and has to resort to makeshift ruski rapecuffs like the detective at one point had to.

Easy, make cargo able to produce these and other plastic tools (they already do, unless multitools are made of metal, which they clearly aren't) using a new synthetic plastic material type since it's so abundant on the station and would be easy to rope into toher items that contain plastics. Recycling plastic is the future! What a stupid, retarded complaint to make when it's so easily fixable, lol.

Because throwing people in a cell and buckle cuffing them and then walking off is a good thing, we don't want to interact with the prisoner or the prisoner having a chance at being stupid do we?

No, I'm simply saying it's an option to let a prisoner take their own zipties off if they're repeatably disarming you/running around/etc when you uncuff them. You don't have to waste baton charge or the use the brig flasher either in order to take their cuffs off this way.

Because we want to have several different resist times complicating things so that during interrogations they have an easier time resisting out, because again we just want to throw them in the slammer and forget about them?

So, standardize resist times? What does this have to do with my feature? You can make zipties have the same resist time as regular cuffs if you want, but zipties are a logical replacement for the old retro-future handcuffs that aren't used often nowadays. Plastic zipties are cheap, affordable, and disposable, meaning they're the obvious step forward for sec. I didn't remove regular cuffs because I realize they have their uses such as long-term prisoners' security; they're for grey tiders and riff-raff that you can slap a ziptie on and boot out later, not having to fumble with cuffs that are meant for serious offenders.

If a friend uses wirecutters on his friends' zipties? So what, that's awesome teamwork and I've so far never seen it happen. These types of things should totally be encouraged!

Again, it's an incomplete feature, you're already seeing why that is the case. These things are evolving, and being able to stack zipties in 3 or even 5 stacks in your belt would make them a much more viable and standard thing for security. I realize they're way too situational as it stands right now, but even in this state it's still a MUCH better feature than all the other shit that people in this thread churn out regularly.

Seriously, if you think a feature like this is bad or missed potential, go improve it. I added zipties along with some other standardization things for resisting out of cuffs so these things could happen. I'm not just blowing smoke in this thread, I want sec to be improved, but if you guys stay locked into this mentality that sec can't be anything but the foil for antags it's always going to be in this power struggle against antag changes. You're essentially making your own problem here, and I feel sympathetic because I understand what it's like to be there. Maybe focus on redesigning security now that we have a """"DESIGN""""" """"""LEAD""""""" and run some ideas by him. Kor is super open to changes like this. Especially changes involving pairing sec officers up with miners, which is some really fun gameplay. There's a lot of potential for sec to be more than just an antag hunting role, but if you don't let it spread its wings it's always gonna just sit in this muddy water where the main big issue is ranged stun combat and shit.

Spoiler:

Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you like dunking other players. Maybe you like making them miserable when their traitor plan didn't pan out because they didn't expect you to 360 noscope them with a hybrid taser or your X-3528u459 ""SNOWFLAKE"" MULTISTAGE TASER. Maybe Dante was right and sec is just rule-approved grief. Maybe you assholes literally hate all fun and that's why you play sec. Honestly, if you keep down this path the only thing that's gonna happen is Kor re-adds antag sec and your department of traitorchasers will be total chaos and madness again. Fine, whatever. But I know from experience this game can be a lot more if you stop sticking your head in that mud like me, the king of ignorant assholes.

[ShadowDimentio]

I play sec, often warden because I'm a cool dude and being a cool dude to people who are used to being thrown in perma for slipping an officer feels good to all parties.

Plus while I get to do that I get to dunk antags that I find with superior gear to a random greytider so that's fun too

And Paprika I swear to fucking god if you try to remove stuns again I will supernova and drag us all to hell

[Malkevin]

Make beepsky easier to escape from, because by the time you've got there and found them they've managed to resist out.

Beepsky has a 'detain' option for this very reason. By the time you get there the cirminal could have already run off anyway, even if he had regular cuffs on. Plus he'd get a free pair of cuffs as a souvenir before this change! How nice!
Oh WOW! FREE CUFFS!!! STOP THE FUCKING GAME HOW OVERPOWERED IS THIS SHIT!! I mean its not like he can go to art storage and make himself two dozen cable cuffs!!!

Replace half of the sec vendor's reusable cuffs with one use things so security eventually runs out and has to resort to makeshift ruski rapecuffs like the detective at one point had to.

Easy, make cargo able to produce these and other plastic tools (they already do, unless multitools are made of metal, which they clearly aren't) using a new synthetic plastic material type since it's so abundant on the station and would be easy to rope into toher items that contain plastics. Recycling plastic is the future! What a stupid, retarded complaint to make when it's so easily fixable, lol.
Deflection if I ever saw one. Its not a thing that would've needed fixing if you hadn't created the issue in the first place. Also, cargo is shit and if you're going there to replacements for basic items of your job you might as well the reusable version

Because throwing people in a cell and buckle cuffing them and then walking off is a good thing, we don't want to interact with the prisoner or the prisoner having a chance at being stupid do we?

No, I'm simply saying it's an option to let a prisoner take their own zipties off if they're repeatably disarming you/running around/etc when you uncuff them. You don't have to waste baton charge or the use the brig flasher either in order to take their cuffs off this way.
Newb officers getting robusted by their prisoner is thing every sec player should experience atleast once in their live. And pepperspray is the thing you should use, not the baton.

Because we want to have several different resist times complicating things so that during interrogations they have an easier time resisting out, because again we just want to throw them in the slammer and forget about them?

So, standardize resist times? What does this have to do with my feature?
Oh I don't know, maybe because you're the one that coded the feature so you're the one responsible for the different resist times existing in the first place?
Then again, you were a talentless hack that got others to do your coding for you, so maybe you weren't the one that coded them

You can make zipties have the same resist time as regular cuffs if you want, but zipties are a logical replacement for the old retro-future handcuffs that aren't used often nowadays. Plastic zipties are cheap, affordable, and disposable, meaning they're the obvious step forward for sec. I didn't remove regular cuffs because I realize they have their uses such as long-term prisoners' security; they're for grey tiders and riff-raff that you can slap a ziptie on and boot out later, not having to fumble with cuffs that are meant for serious offenders.
Beat cops still use normal handcuffs, its only tactical units that use zip cuffs and the only reason they use them is because they can carry a dozen of them at once - not something we can do with your half arsed replacement.

[imblyings]

>someone is RIGHT NOW approving posts itt
>someone RIGHT NOW wants to see this thread continue

lmao of my life

[oranges]

10 bucks on hg

[Reece]

Why is validhunting an issue? I'm shit tier at combat so I spend most of my sec rounds confiscating stolen goods, improvised weapons and making autistic audio logs with criminal scum in the brig. Security has nothing bar the tasers that makes valid hunting magically easier, as the RD I can be ten minutes in and massively more powerful than security. It seems to me the issue isn't what security has but rather what mindset security puts you in.


Also why is it bad for security to hunt antags but fine for antags to murderbone the shit out of things, sec players want to have fun as well. I do it by Roleplaying as a beat cop as security, but why is it somehow worse to have fun by stopping others from shitting up the round, everyone seems to go on about it being unfun when an antag gets killed by sec, or perma'd be sec. You know what's even less fun, sharing deadchat with the eight other guys the antag got with an E-bow and sword combo, or having your round fucked when some assistant breaks into R&D/robotics to wordlessly smash your shit apart. One of the reasons I hate sybil roynds is half the time the entire round is in a shit spiral by the fifth minute, I got called a fun Nazi and ignored by sec players because I dared to knock down the janitor who broke into the caps office to loot it when I was the freaking captain.

I'm not a veteran player, I'm not even that good, I can set up a reasonable plasma flood but atmosia still confuses me, I can wire solars but panicif power starts to go out, combat wise I rely entirely on stuns or die in seconds. But I really enjoy this game. I'm trying to learn coding and spriting to help keep the game living and improved, but after less than five months playing I find security to be a horrible role, you can't do shit to an even mildly competent antag, and you're never there for the little things like theft, etc that you can help. The entire role seems pointless. At the risk of sounding dramatic it reminds me of heart of darkness, no one's killed it off for good and just decentralised it to department by department anti shitler patrols but no ones buffed it uo to make it matter against antags. Just freakking pick one or it's gonna remain a mire of boredom and deadchat.

But again, I'm being dramatic.

[imblyings]

there's shitty validhunting and then there is conscientious validhunting, not many people are not autistic enough to know the difference

oranges mate you lost 10 bucks

[paprika]

And Paprika I swear to fucking god if you try to remove stuns again I will supernova and drag us all to hell

I don't even think stuns are the problem with the game, and I have never tried to remove stuns.

That was Ergovisavi, he literally made a PR that removed weaken() once and turned everything into stamina damage, shit was nuts.

I just think ranged stuns are cheap, thus the introduction of tasers having a limited range, having a firing delay (this was one of my worst prs though because it just made combat feel laggy because there was no feedback when you could shoot your taser again) and removing the stun option from eguns. I also buffed disabler beams MASSIVELY by standardizing them with laser beams so they can pass through glass/transparent airlocks, grilles, etc. I also gave them unlimited range versus taser bolts that have short range, I gave disablers a tiny energy cost compared to taser bolts, etc.

I legitimately think the disabler vs disabler pew pew pew combat is way more fun than 'who tases who first' but that's my opinion. When I did code, I tried to move the ranged combat in this direction, and considering all my PRs were accepted, I think this is what the people in charge of the code want as well. So you can shit on my ideas all you want, but at least most of my controversial PRs were accepted tbh.

Also I'm putting Malkevin on ignore like I should have done a long time ago, he is being aggressively stupid now to a level I didn't even think was possible. Maybe I should have heeded the warnings of my peers in #coderbus who had interacted with him in the past, but that's my mistake and I apologize if my comments in this thread have upset anyone in particular. I didn't mean to be so hostile, that's old Pap coming out despite me not even coding anymore. Security and the combat balance of this game has always been something I've been deeply passionate about trying to make fun for everyone. Sorry again.

[PKPenguin321]

we should remove security

[Reece]

we should remove security

Or fold it into the other departments, right now the job of security seems a bit...pointless to me, and I'm not the only newby to feel that way, It'd make more sense for there to be a science guard, an engineering guard, a command guard, etc than an actual department purely for enforcing the law, that way you (theoretically) stop the annoying greytiding crap that ends up shitting the round up on a department by department basis, but discourages the validhunting nature of the security as it is now. With no special radio channel to share they'd be left using common or their own department comms.

The armoury itself you could decentralise with each security booth having a locker that won't open until code red that has a laser gun and whatever other bits and pieces they might need, like riot gear and such to help keep each department safe. Then there's what to do with where security used to be of course.

[oranges]

there's shitty validhunting and then there is conscientious validhunting, not many people are not autistic enough to know the difference

oranges mate you lost 10 bucks

shieeeeeet

hit me up some time to redeem it

[paprika]

we should remove security

Or fold it into the other departments, right now the job of security seems a bit...pointless to me, and I'm not the only newby to feel that way, It'd make more sense for there to be a science guard, an engineering guard, a command guard, etc than an actual department purely for enforcing the law, that way you (theoretically) stop the annoying greytiding crap that ends up shitting the round up on a department by department basis, but discourages the validhunting nature of the security as it is now. With no special radio channel to share they'd be left using common or their own department comms.

The armoury itself you could decentralise with each security booth having a locker that won't open until code red that has a laser gun and whatever other bits and pieces they might need, like riot gear and such to help keep each department safe. Then there's what to do with where security used to be of course.

The main issue I see with that is that you'd need a way to deal with prisoners somehow

Just forcing them out of your department doesn't work, neither does killing them because

[Super Aggro Crag]

i dont see the problem with security validhunting, people who cry about security looking for criminals are silly.

[PKPenguin321]

i dont see the problem with security validhunting, people who cry about security looking for criminals are silly.

i do see the problem with security validhunting, people who cry about people who cry about security looking for criminals are silly.

[Steelpoint]

The whole exsistance of security is to act as a counter foil to antagonists.

Let's at least pretend there some semblance of law enforcement on a high tech space station instead of the ideal dream some people have of removing security forever and making justice something meted out by the masses (and admins when shit will hit the fan).

The fact people hate security is kinda realistic considering some people's attitudes towards the real life Police.

[Malkevin]

The whole exsistance of security is to act as a counter foil to antagonists.

Let's at least pretend there some semblance of law enforcement on a high tech space station instead of the ideal dream some people have of removing security forever and making justice something meted out by the masses (and admins when shit will hit the fan).

The fact people hate security is kinda realistic considering some people's attitudes towards the real life Police.

Not really, their entire point of being is to take care of scumbags - antags just happen to top of the scumbag list.

[allura]

The whole exsistance of security is to act as a counter foil to antagonists.

lol

[metacide]

i do see the problem with security validhunting, people who cry about people who cry about security looking for criminals are silly.

Hang on, what, you think there's something wrong with sec validhunting? Am I being memed at here?

we should remove security

Oho, right, I am being memed. Good one.

[Steelpoint]

]
Not really, their entire point of being is to take care of scumbags - antags just happen to top of the scumbag list.

Who came first, the chicken or the egg?

Irrespective of how its worded the ultimate point of security's exsistance is to act as a station counter to antagonists.

This is not inherently a bad thing, its just that when some people think of security counter antags that think of officers in weidling over powered weapons they stole/liberated from science and other dead antagonists while scouring maintenance with thermals on their head and a pre-typed 'help' response at the ready.

Whereas the reality should be that security are just polcing the station and any antagonists that go loud or are very obvious in their intention suddenly become the 100% focus of that beat officer.

[FranzKrake]

I think right now Sec is ok as it is.

The gulag shuttle needs improvements (Mainly a more intuitive way to convert ores into points, as most people dont understand the concept, that 1 tile south of the stacking machine is not marked as drop off point.)

You can definitely manage without secborgs and overall I find a borg-free brig better suitable due to the fact that players tend to execute prisoners more often than not.
Perma should be improved with more activities for the prisoners (Seed Vendor? More Hydro items?)

The single most annoying thing as Sec right now is the lack of ballistic weaponry, from a game mechanic point of view. And is it just me or are disabler and laser beams slooooooooow. I mean, sloooooow. Its a pain in the ass to see those projectiles fly like a fat chick.

What also struck me, after playing Sec/HOS extensively recently, is the sheer badness of the players. No good methodology, no logical thinking, no teamwork. But that is, a problem of the playerbase that plays sec and when you see some oldfags in red, this quickly changes.
For me, Ive imposed a strict "partner" system, when playing HOS, which means that I group sec officers together and tell em to move toghether on patrol. After all, youre just 1 slip away from death in this game. And I think people, at least on Basil, are starting to learn the value of Teamwork as Sec Officers.
Overall, I like playing Sec because it is a very challenging Job that gives you very different scenarios and challenges every shift, contrary to boring jobs like Viro, Genetics, Robo, etc, which are repetitive as F.

As to the "representation" of Security on github: You dont need to be a rocket scientist to tell the vast majority of improvements, buffs, items and what not went straight into the Syndie Uplink consoles rather than into the Armory. I know that youre not supposed to "save" the station from all traitor as Sec, every shift, that security is more about keeping a basic order of things and catching the worst murderboners / dickheads, at least thats my take on Sec. But please be aware that this is a fine line youre walking here. (I think that Lings and Nukies right now are very much on the OP as F side and you can hardly do shit against them as Sec, whereas gang/traitor/rev/cult game modes are fine.)

[PKPenguin321]

i do see the problem with security validhunting, people who cry about people who cry about security looking for criminals are silly.

Hang on, what, you think there's something wrong with sec validhunting? Am I being memed at here?

we should remove security

Oho, right, I am being memed. Good one.

haha fuck you caught me
yeah ive basically been shitposting for this whole thread because it's absolutely retarded, nothing will come of this thread at all except for making people yell at each other

real talk though security (as with all other things in the game) should have the primary purpose of creating fun. do they do that right now? sometimes. could we change them to make fun more often? probably, but don't ask me how.

[paprika]

What about the most popular job on sybil, shaft miner?

[Pilgrim]

I agree that security is, for the most part, fine as it is. I frequently play it and I think there's a good proportion of sec getting stomped, sec stomping the antags, and sec being devestated early on inthe round and making a guerilla-style comeback to Judge Dress the station wastelands.

Quite frankly, almost every time security has been fucked it's been due to incompetence, understaffment, or fate, rather than unbeatable antag setups (even though some antag memery is overpowered, teamwork can usually beat it) and you're a drooling retard greyshirt if you think security has become too powerful lately. If you don't have that hard of a time getting greentext, then literally nothing is wrong.

[WarbossLincoln]

Like others have pointed out, it's not mechanical, it's players' attitudes. Both Sec and non-sec.

Let's face it, 40% of the crew hate sec cause they're salty at something that happened to them(legit or not). 40% of the crew are just autistic and scream memes when they get arrested, disarm spam the officer when they are uncuffed, and then scream/ahelp when they get permabrigged for it.

Both sides of the fence have gotten worse. Playing sec is often lame because of dealing with caustic assholes like those. The regular crew are given even more reason to act like 5 year olds after getting shit on by sec officers that are pissed off.

Admins letting up on Sec and the removal of Space Law are double edged swords. It can make playing sec a bit less of a hassle, not having to worry about ahelps all the time. But at the same time it sucks to get arrested by these unchecked mouthbreathers. Now it's completely ok to bucklecuff an innocent person for 5-10 minutes, completely silent, no charge, no nothing. Happened to me the other day. Detective shot me cause "that ligger getting tools from tool storage must be an antag". Warden bucklecuffed me in a cell with a 5 or so minute timer, but the detective never told him of a crime, just threw me in there and the warden assumed I must have done something so he put a time. Then left me bucklecuffed the whole time. This is now a completely valid way for sec to act and it's making both sides of sec-crew interaction worse.

[PKPenguin321]

make it so sometimes sec spawns with a confetti cannon instead of a taser that looks exactly like a taser so when they go to apprehend a criminal it gives 'em a big ol' surprise instead

[PKPenguin321]

we should put a stripper pole outside the brig and give sec one of those 80s porno cop outfits with the torn up jean shorts, open jacket that shows chest/arms, bushy moustache + thick aviators. this way they can interact with brigged criminals in a whole new way and it opens the door to a wonderful world of RP

[DemonFiren]

make it so sometimes sec spawns with a confetti cannon instead of a taser that looks exactly like a taser so when they go to apprehend a criminal it gives 'em a big ol' surprise instead

Clown firing pins should do this to any gun they're inserted into.

[blobbernaut]

One of my most disliked changes ever on this server was the nerf to sec's armor. It's basically worthless now especially since so many things have armor penetration. They're soldiers protecting a top secret research installation, not mallcops. They should be at least marginally harder to kill but they're really not

[paprika]

>it's a "security are soldiers" episode

[PKPenguin321]

One of my most disliked changes ever on this server was the nerf to sec's armor. It's basically worthless now especially since so many things have armor penetration. They're soldiers protecting a top secret research installation, not mallcops. They should be at least marginally harder to kill but they're really not

things with armor penetration off the top of my head:
1. esword
2. revolver
3. 2? of the chaplains weapons

>so many things have armor penetration
????

PS ultra armor sec is actually pretty lame and with stun+cuff it often doesnt do much in the first place i never got why people are so obsessed about it


oh oh oh and
we should give sec a tickle feather so they can peacefully torture apprehended criminals. we should also give one to the clown so they can have tickle fights.

[Supermichael777]

I have a "solution"

As i see it securities primary problem is that polarizing elements, "Memers", have split security into another form of antagonist in the eyes of the masses. This has caused general crew members to stop playing as sec resulting in a drop in sec quality and an increases in vigilantism by former elite sec officers who don't want the stigma. When sec cracks down on these vaildhunters they see sec as in their way and feel justified attacking the noobs who aren't power-gaming to hunt only antags. This drives new players out of security and into the churnig grey where they are influenced by the polerizeres. This has driven sec to withdraw, hiding in the brig to pop out and dunk those out of line but not rping or countering the tide for fear of retribution form the hunters who believe that stealing gear to fight antags is justified because sec are useless

This vicious cycle needs to be ended.

Remove Security as a physical department. Perma/gulag(effectively perma already) would remain, under the authority of the hos/captain. Departmental security would be expanded with 2 officers for each department acting as a pair, plus two roamers based out of a small patrol office which would be filled first(personally I think prioritizing departmental sec counterproductive in its current state). Move the grav gen, nice and central. Each office would have a timed cell, a pair of lockers, the red alert safe with two guns, and the current door controls. This reduces the processing time for criminals and makes sec more streamlined. The cell having a sec access door to the outside with a button in the office would be nice too.

Newcurity would be a chance to dispose of the old memes and to remove the cancerous armory which has turned into an antag lootbox. Also make the uniforms blue, just because.

[paprika]

We will never get a chance to gut the armory because 'wh-what if the AI goes rogue and we don't have an Ion rifle!' or whatever.

[PKPenguin321]

here is my next solution. we give sec a special pair of cuffs that aren't actually cuffs but they're friendship bracelets. when you wear one it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and nice towards whoever gave it to you, and it can make criminals and sec not so mad at each other which allows for glorious master race RP.

[paprika]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 82#p177982

Posting here for posterity

Hopefully this will fix the problem if anyone actually bothers to touch the tragedy that is gamemode code after the freeze ends

[FranzKrake]

So much shitposting.

[WarbossLincoln]

We will never get a chance to gut the armory because 'wh-what if the AI goes rogue and we don't have an Ion rifle!' or whatever.

If security was ever decentralized and the armory gutted you could just keep a couple special pieces of gear on the bridge. Put a HOS access locker on the bridge with the ion rifle, a few riot shotguns, etc.

I'm not against the idea of gutting the armory, but we do need a few spares of regular sec gear. Hell, maybe the HOP could be the custodian of those instead of an armory. Though the HOP would just steal them for himself. But we do need a couple spare tasers for when some officer gets his stolen by a greyshit.

[WarbossLincoln]

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 82#p177982

Posting here for posterity

Hopefully this will fix the problem if anyone actually bothers to touch the tragedy that is gamemode code after the freeze ends

A thought on your points about conversion gamemodes:

Do you think Rev was better back when conversions were limited? Didn't it used to be like 3 conversions per rev head only or something?

An idea for a variation of Rev that isn't "FLASH EVERYONE BREAK EVERYTHING" where either security kills all the crew or the revs kill all non revs:
--Make rev a focused team traitor round. Have a variable number of revolutionaries based on population. Give them TC, albeit less than a full traitor and maybe limit what weapons they have available to encourage them to be more stealthy and resourceful. Let them start with syndicate radio keys in their headsets so they can communicate. This is more of an Overthrow rather than Revolution but it could be fun. It would basically be a teamwork traitor mode where the group has the objectives to assassinate all the heads of staff.

The team could coordinate their attempted assinations. If we can get almost coordinated nuke ops teams we ought to be able to handle this. I'm kinda picturing the end of the Godfather, where Michael's goons all shoot the heads of the families at the same time. With various jobs as the traitors they can play on each other's tools/strengths. Doctor could steal surgical tools for weapons for the team. Engineer could grab several pairs of gloves and RCDs for the team. Geneticist could get powers or try to prevent cloning sec. Chaplain and Chef have weapons and body disposal. I think by giving them TC but not giving them access to syndicate weapons you might see more working together. You might need each other's access to aquire weapons without getting caught. If one guy manages to dunk a sec officer he could get a voice changer and loot batons and maybe tasers for the team.

To add to paranoia, Sec would have no real way to confirm the round type is different from traitor. When a guy gets caught with a flash and chameleon glasses all of sec starts arresting everyone they see without an implant. With this if one guy gets caught you don't know if he was a lone traitor or if there's an organized team working against all the heads of staff. I'm really in favor of anything that makes it harder to meta exactly what the round type is.

The more I think about this, the more I'm liking the idea of specialized traitor rounds. In the same vein of double agents, where all the antags are syndicate traitors but the level of teamwork, goals, supplies, etc are all different. It would discourage meta, keep the game in line with sec protecting the station instead of Sec VS Crew.

A possible team traitor objective: End the round with less than a certain amount of power on the station. It would total up all the power stored in the SMESs and APCs on the station. Their mission would be to sabotage power as much as possible. Though releasing the engine might be too easy of a win.

[paprika]

It doesn't really fix the problem of sec fighting antags that are part of the crew, causing them to play team deathmatch

[PKPenguin321]

i think we should give sec a magic pen that writes treaties automatically. this way they can form beneficial alliances with traitors, gangs, and cultists in a fun and rp-friendly way. this pen could pull from a big pool of pre-written phrases to form a sort of madlib, such as

"Dear [gang], I hope you [agree/disagree] that the [faction on the station] is [good/bad] and must be [aided/stopped]. I believe that if we work together, we could do something greatly beneficial to both of our parties. We hope you have mutual feelings with us, and look forward to further diplomacy. Sincerely, the Security Department."

[yackemflam]

How strong was sec supposed to be originally?

[PKPenguin321]

How strong was sec supposed to be originally?

sec was originally going to have inflatable muscles on their jumpsuits like this:

[paprika]

WHERE THE ANTAGS @

[Reece]

Learn this simple trick to boost your valid hunting.
Nuke ops hate him.

[Cheridan]

How strong was sec supposed to be originally?

no armory at all, no warden, no sechuds, no riot shields, HoS had standard armor, brig had fewer cells and was much less secure with very limited visibility.

eguns did like 30 damage on pistolwhips though and you could cheese people with thermals, so there was that at least. also beepsky would wreck people since there was only 1 main hallway through the entire station.

[Malkevin]

Nuke ops also just used to have space suits, eswords, and revolvers.

[paprika]

We should really have some throwback rounds with detective thermals and nuke ops with revolvers, shit would be nuts

[Cik]

re-ban paprika 2016

[onleavedontatme]

Nuke ops also just used to have space suits, eswords, and revolvers.

Revolvers which did 60 brute and knockdown in melee yeah, and ebows that had 5 shots before recharge.

But back then there weren't really very many power levels because everything killed you in one hit (long, long stuns) and nobody had any sort of protection whatsoever other than dodging (other than fucking hulks) so it's hard to really compare to now.