Security's representation on Github.

An old fashioned device, relics of a forgotten era.

"If I ever meet myself, I'll hit myself so hard I won't know what's hit me."
Locked
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #174877

Bottom post of the previous page:

I know, but I was pointing out how it was always being removed in the past. Its on the map right now thanks to that PR but historically someone was always removing it without noting its removal.
Image
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #174993

Nobody else on github except maybe silicon players 'identify' themselves as players of a particular role. Gun Hog is a good example of a silicon/research 'main' and so he makes prs/comments on PRs that effect those things.

You know who else does this?

DemonFiren. He makes comments on PRs that deal with lizards, because he plays a lizard and wants lizard players to be equally represented on #coderbus as well as on the github.

In other words, Security/Silicon/Research """"PLAYERS""""" are akin to furries.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
Wyzack
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
Byond Username: Wyzack

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Wyzack » #174995

Jesus pap have you considered a career as a campaign manager?
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3
certified good poster
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #174999

Almost everyone is going to have a bias towards a role they play more than others, that's not something that's bad or wrong. But it is something that needs to be understood.
Image
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175000

Your team deathmatch ends here.

The simple truth is, when security 'wins' against antags, the round is turned into extended at best. They call the shuttle, collect their antag weapon trophies and start it over again. Because they have nothing else to do.

When they 'lose' against antags, they cry on the forums.

The truth that many proper security ''''''players'''''' like myself have come to realize is that it's NOT security's job to stop antags. In fact, security SHOULD be at a disadvantage. Maybe not enough so that antags can walk all over them and raid the armory alone as just a traitor, but the real goal of security is to PROTECT THE CREW.

NOT hunt antags.

In the twisted, dogmatic minds of most practicing under the church of Security, they simply think bullying the crew is a means to this end of 'protecting' them, 'for the greater good'. In reality, they want to be fun-police, just like silicons who play security borgs.

The difference here is though, sec can't be antag like secborgs could. So we don't need to remove security, merely the retarded power creep they've been operating under over the years. Yeah it feels good to be robust and shit on antags with tasers, but is it really a true victory when you have a one-stun-and-done weapon? Do you really feel like you got big boy pants when you can throw a flashbang into a room 0.000001 seconds before it explodes and guarantee your victory over the antag?

Stop this power struggle. Seriously, you're wrong. You will always be wrong. The people who run the codebase know you're wrong, they allow you to operate and comment and spew your horseshit because they think it's funny when you get all worked up because you got dunked by a traitor because boo hoo my taser doesn't have 10 shots and doesn't stun for 10 seconds anymore. BOO HOO A GUY GOT AWAY BECAUSE I HAVE TO ACTUALLY MOVE HIM BACK TO SECURITY INSTEAD OF HAVING HIM TELEPORT THERE FOR MY AUTISTIC POWER FANTASY ROLEPLAY WHERE I CAN SUBJUGATE OTHER PLAYERS LIKE I'M A METROCOP FROM HALF LIFE TWO.

Real security players don't want buffs. They could take down an esword traitor with a fucking toothbursh. You're a punk and need to fuck off with your tase and lase, your flashbang cheese, and your 'wahh my spacesuit isn't overpowered enough!' Security should remain as the hardest role on the station. Life should not be easy as a sec player. New players should be chewed up and spit out by antags. It SHOULD be a hard role. That's what earns you respect in the eyes of fellow players when you dunk antags. Not your fucking stupid teleporter taser gun that strips, handcuffs, and casually assfucks any crew member you think is an antag.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #175001

When "security" "wins" the round the effects of that depend on the round type, if its anything but Traitor then the round usually ends not long after.

I ask you to go though my thoughts on this forum and point out when I said I want security to be able to win against antags consistently and without much challenge.

There's a key difference between me wanting security to have a chance against antagonists, a fair one, versus having a one sided confrontation.

My concerns on this thread are not lack of security equipment, but more so a bias against security on git hub to a extent.

Most of the real problems security face are player retention and competence and administration. I don't think security equipment is, for the most part, in a bad place sans armour protection and the horribly one sided nature of space combat, but otherwise I'm satisfied with security's lot equipment wise.
Image
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175003

There is no bias against security, or security players, there's a bias against the notion that sec should be on 'equal footing' with antags.

You can't put sec on equal footing with every kind of antag. You just can't. Sometimes you're going to just have to try and fucking survive with your baton.

Also sec should absolutely not be balanced around shit like revs or wizards, those are meme gamemodes tbh
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
PKPenguin321
Site Admin
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm
Byond Username: PKPenguin321
Github Username: PKPenguin321
Location: U S A, U S A, U S A

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by PKPenguin321 » #175004

paprika wrote:Your team deathmatch ends here.

The simple truth is, when security 'wins' against antags, the round is turned into extended at best. They call the shuttle, collect their antag weapon trophies and start it over again. Because they have nothing else to do.

When they 'lose' against antags, they cry on the forums.

The truth that many proper security ''''''players'''''' like myself have come to realize is that it's NOT security's job to stop antags. In fact, security SHOULD be at a disadvantage. Maybe not enough so that antags can walk all over them and raid the armory alone as just a traitor, but the real goal of security is to PROTECT THE CREW.

NOT hunt antags.

In the twisted, dogmatic minds of most practicing under the church of Security, they simply think bullying the crew is a means to this end of 'protecting' them, 'for the greater good'. In reality, they want to be fun-police, just like silicons who play security borgs.

The difference here is though, sec can't be antag like secborgs could. So we don't need to remove security, merely the retarded power creep they've been operating under over the years. Yeah it feels good to be robust and shit on antags with tasers, but is it really a true victory when you have a one-stun-and-done weapon? Do you really feel like you got big boy pants when you can throw a flashbang into a room 0.000001 seconds before it explodes and guarantee your victory over the antag?

Stop this power struggle. Seriously, you're wrong. You will always be wrong. The people who run the codebase know you're wrong, they allow you to operate and comment and spew your horseshit because they think it's funny when you get all worked up because you got dunked by a traitor because boo hoo my taser doesn't have 10 shots and doesn't stun for 10 seconds anymore. BOO HOO A GUY GOT AWAY BECAUSE I HAVE TO ACTUALLY MOVE HIM BACK TO SECURITY INSTEAD OF HAVING HIM TELEPORT THERE FOR MY AUTISTIC POWER FANTASY ROLEPLAY WHERE I CAN SUBJUGATE OTHER PLAYERS LIKE I'M A METROCOP FROM HALF LIFE TWO.

Real security players don't want buffs. They could take down an esword traitor with a fucking toothbursh. You're a punk and need to fuck off with your tase and lase, your flashbang cheese, and your 'wahh my spacesuit isn't overpowered enough!' Security should remain as the hardest role on the station. Life should not be easy as a sec player. New players should be chewed up and spit out by antags. It SHOULD be a hard role. That's what earns you respect in the eyes of fellow players when you dunk antags. Not your fucking stupid teleporter taser gun that strips, handcuffs, and casually assfucks any crew member you think is an antag.
Realest fucking post in this thread
Holy shit thank you for saying all this
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
Image
Zilenan91
Confined to the shed
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 pm
Byond Username: Zilenan91

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Zilenan91 » #175014

Security of any form can only be on equal footing with antags if there are other various factors they need that power to be able to deal with. Gonna go with Lifeweb here as an example, where dead people become zombies that can instantly kill someone with their bare hands if they hit you on the throat with their claws and cut off your head. It is not a rare event to see people get tackled by zombies and have their throats torn out under a flurry of gnashing jaws.

Anyways what I'm saying is sec buffs would only be a good thing if they had something to do but fight antagonists.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175019

Oh, I agree. But the only thing that comes to mind is patrolling (which sucks) and going on monster hunts with miners (which would abandon the station).

If you have any good suggestions for things sec officers can do in their down-time so they aren't so rigorously searching for people to valid, I'm all ears.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
Zilenan91
Confined to the shed
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 pm
Byond Username: Zilenan91

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Zilenan91 » #175020

An idea I had a while ago was to merge cargo with sec, and make sec officers take both the duty of sec officers and shaft miners. There would need to be a lot more slots and if the challenge of lavaland mobs was upped a bit they could be in for legitimate buffs.

As for my reasonings why, sec is boring as hell. Everyone knows this and it's always been this way, however if security officers could do something on the side like go to lavaland to mine minerals and do other stuff to kill time and improve their explorer suits it would make the role far more attractive. The QM would have both the duties of the HoS, warden, and current QM, with him watching the armory and managing stocks. I don't know who the Warden would be, if he would even be needed at all in cargosec since the sec officer role will likely be completely filled due to them being shaft miners.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #175022

The major balance problem with merging Cargo with Sec is that this will suddenly give Security a massive leg up in conversion based rounds (or any round where having access to cargo is vital).

Cargo is a major site to hold for Security and Conversion Antagonists, and giving Security a brig surrounding cargo and control of cargo from round start would be a massive change in security's favor.
Image
Zilenan91
Confined to the shed
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 8:09 pm
Byond Username: Zilenan91

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Zilenan91 » #175024

Then that's a case for fixing the problems that those modes have. All cargosec would do would would highlight the actual problems, but overall it would make the roles far better.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175044

Yeah I admit, I really like fighting over cargo during rev or gang rounds
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
Malkevin

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Malkevin » #175104

Zilenan91 wrote:An idea I had a while ago was to merge cargo with sec, and make sec officers take both the duty of sec officers and shaft miners. There would need to be a lot more slots and if the challenge of lavaland mobs was upped a bit they could be in for legitimate buffs.

As for my reasonings why, sec is boring as hell. Everyone knows this and it's always been this way, however if security officers could do something on the side like go to lavaland to mine minerals and do other stuff to kill time and improve their explorer suits it would make the role far more attractive. The QM would have both the duties of the HoS, warden, and current QM, with him watching the armory and managing stocks. I don't know who the Warden would be, if he would even be needed at all in cargosec since the sec officer role will likely be completely filled due to them being shaft miners.
You've suggested this a half a dozen times in this thread alone and no one has responded to it yet, because like most of your ideas it is dumb
User avatar
Drynwyn
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:09 pm
Byond Username: Drynwyn

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Drynwyn » #175170

PKPenguin321 wrote:
paprika wrote:truth bombs
Realest fucking post in this thread
Holy shit thank you for saying all this
paprika is a sayer of Truths
In game, I play the A.I Firmware, the French cyborg C.U.R.I.E, Aubrie Allen, and the lizard scum Skulks-Through-Maintenance.
User avatar
DemonFiren
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
Byond Username: DemonFiren

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by DemonFiren » #175172

I don't know what you did to the real Paprika, but you need to do it to some other people on here.
Image
Image
Image
ImageImageImageImageImage

non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
Image
User avatar
Not-Dorsidarf
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
Byond Username: Dorsidwarf
Location: We're all going on an, admin holiday

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #175200

In terms of direct confrontations the 'aimed for' power gradient should probbably be something like this

Crewman -> Lone Officer -> Tator -> Shadowling -> Changeling -> The sec team -> Nuke ops -> Wizard/Blob

With Revs and gangs off on a magical adventure to Completely Unreliableland
Image
Image
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please. 🖕🖕🖕
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by iamgoofball » #175209

why dont we improve and focus on Security VS Crime? As in, Security VS greyshits greytiding or Security VS Theft. Shit that isn't "muh valids" but also part of Security's already existing job. Maybe a better brigging system, more incentives to arrest lawbreakers, shit like that.

and we can make the brig something you can work to get out of too, mass producing license plates and shit prison architect style to either steal escape tools or buy your way out on good behavior

letting the Captain set Space Law too would be a fun thing to do
User avatar
Wyzack
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
Byond Username: Wyzack

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Wyzack » #175214

I like where this discussion is going. Who gives a fuck about red text
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3
certified good poster
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #175217

In the past some people have had reservations about expanding the brig for fear of people wanting to spend the round in the brig.

But I say why not.
Image
Cheimon
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
Byond Username: Cheimon

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Cheimon » #175269

iamgoofball wrote:why dont we improve and focus on Security VS Crime? As in, Security VS greyshits greytiding or Security VS Theft. Shit that isn't "muh valids" but also part of Security's already existing job. Maybe a better brigging system, more incentives to arrest lawbreakers, shit like that.

and we can make the brig something you can work to get out of too, mass producing license plates and shit prison architect style to either steal escape tools or buy your way out on good behavior

letting the Captain set Space Law too would be a fun thing to do
The gulag could have been a bit like this, but because it's a shuttle ride away it tends to be viewed as a slightly more secure perma (and now it's perma with deadly monsters and traversable lava, which nobody sensible uses).
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by oranges » #175300

paprika wrote:In other words, Security/Silicon/Research """"PLAYERS""""" are akin to furries.
This is funny because just like furries they also act persecuted and demand special treatment. :lol:
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175322

=== ROLES

-Remove warden
-Loyalty implant for QM
-QM now answers to HoS instead of HoP
-QM still can't open security crates
-HoP only focused on service, no access to cargo (maybe just no QM access)
-All cargo techs answer to QM, and if there is none, the HoS
-Miners now answer to Security as well as the QM
-Miners will no longer have weaponry, but mine much more efficiently
-QM will spawn with an e-gun (or maybe just a stun baton?)
-Departmental security removed (this feature sucks dick)
-There will now be two detectives which maybe(?) can be antagonists (maybe not both at the same time, but that could be metagamed if it was the case)


=== MAP

-Remove armory
-Mining moved to Security
-Make 'high security storage' for cargo that only QM/HoS has access to
-Above is not exactly an armory full of guns, will have some situational gear for security (like riot gear, ion rifle) and extra security supplies but most will be locked up behind HoS/QM access
-Departmental security offices removed


=== GAMEPLAY

-Security officers will now go with miners to fight hostile mobs on the mining asteroid. Miners won't have gear to kill these mobs, but will mine faster in general. RnD prices may be tweaked to compensate for this as well as point gain from shipping plasma.

-Security officers will now be focused on fighting external threats to the station and its miners (wildlife, nuke ops, wizards) instead of validhunting stealth antags like traitors and changelings. That will be the job of the detectives and the HoS.

-The QM will now supply security instead of the boring, shitty warden job. He can still be overthrown by cargo techs and security's supply can be much easier cut off.

-The HoS will now fill the warden job and take care of prisoners personally, instead of standing around with his crazy amounts of combat gear waiting for an antag to try and kill him. This was total shit and boring for everyone.

Boom boom shake the room
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Oldman Robustin » #175325

The most obvious symptom of this problem is that robust players who generally hunt antags don't even play security for that purpose.

Geneticist, Chemist, and Scientist can all find themselves more robust than a security member with a low->moderate amount of effort. Security is putting a giant "KILL ME" sign on your back for every antag in the round. Smart players go into the aforementioned roles because they get all the dunkpower without any of the responsibilities or incentives for people to murder you. It's why "sec officer" is at LIBRARIAN-TIER popularity. Nobody is arguing for perfect balance here but there are plenty of changes that would just make security more tolerable to play that still get resistance from people who refuse to give an inch back to sec.

I can't even let security put a jetpack into their suit storage without people getting pissed off about it. Such a tiny itty bitty quality of life change and it still gets shut down.

It's easy for some of you to talk hard when you have never touched a goddamn sec role, but the reality is that the average round as security is so shitty that experienced players avoid the role. Far too many rounds sit in the 25-40 player range with 0-1 security to deal with revolutions, wizards, gangs, changelings, traitors, etc. because at the very least in those modes if you keep your head down you'll probably make it through, or better yet, get converted! But security is forced to confront those terrible odds and serve as a doormat at those pop levels.

I'll probably try my low-pop sec buff again but I expected to get just as much resistance as last time with people who think playing solecurity deserves to have the worst round possible.
Image
User avatar
ShadowDimentio
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
Byond Username: David273

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by ShadowDimentio » #175327

paprika wrote:-Remove warden
Don't like. You've got the Warden/HoS jobs ass backwards.

The warden is supposed to manage prisoners and keep one traitor with an emag and a camera bug from jacking the armory, and the HoS is supposed to be a supercop running around nuking any enemies that show up on their radar.

Removing the warden would just turn the HoS into the warden, or a regular guard into one. It's totally pointless.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175333

ShadowDimentio wrote:Removing the warden would just turn the HoS into the warden, or a regular guard into one. It's totally pointless.
There won't be an armory to protect anymore. Security's gear will mostly just be armor/extra flashes/handcuffs in their lockers and vendors. It won't be worth protecting by having a seperate job delegated to that.

The HoS does literally nothing at the moment. Managing the brig and detectives back on the station while the disposable redshirts throw themselves in harm's way for the miners totally fits the MO of this game.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by onleavedontatme » #175340

Security can't be converted.

Security gets yelled at for being validhunters in ooc if they win. They get yelled at for being bad if they lose. Nobody wants to have endless abuse hurled at them over a game (please, anyone reading this, think about this next time you're flipping out at someone in deadchat or ooc about not being perfect).

Buffing them wont change any of that.

Also I'm not sure how you can recognize that security is the counterbalance to antags in every mode but think it's a good idea to buff sec (and throw every mode off) instead of touching individual antags if they prove unfair for security to deal with.
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175341

Why the fuck is security supposed to 'win' anything

We're here to have fun, just because sec players form a complex where denying greentext means they've 'won' doesn't mean it's a game mechanic, in fact it literally isn't.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
MisterPerson
Board Moderator
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by MisterPerson » #175344

If security can't win in a fight vs the station's antagonists, I wouldn't expect anyone to even bother playing as sec. At that point we might as well get rid of the job.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Feedback is dumb and it doesn't matter
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175348

Literally anyone can win in a fight versus the station's antagonists as long as disarm exists.

If that isn't the case, then maybe there's a problem with antags being too easy.

I'd much rather we nerf bullshit that antags get rather than buffing sec, because sec isn't the only one being murdered by antags, and 'lol sec is the only job who can fight antags' is fucking horrible
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
lumipharon
TGMC Administrator
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by lumipharon » #175370

People who play sec to valid hunt (or any role and just validhunt because they can, for that matter) are fucking cancer and can kindly fuck off. I also agree that sec doesn't need to be expected to 'win' in any game mode (except mainly nuke and wiz, nuke because they're trying to NUKE THE STATION and being an op should be difficult, and wiz because if you have useless sec than the wiz can just slowly grind down the entire crew and be utterly uncounterable).

That said, sec shouldn't be useless shit either, as it becomes simply uninteresting, and plain unfun to play (which is why I never play it any more). Like 99% of problems, it's more a player problem thena mechanical one, hence will most likely never get fixed.
Spoiler:
:^)
Cheimon
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
Byond Username: Cheimon

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Cheimon » #175413

paprika wrote:-Departmental security removed (this feature sucks dick)
Can you elaborate on this a bit? I quite like being able to recharge my taser/baton/lasgun without having to go back to the brig, and it's also nice to be able to search someone in a department without the risk of people running up and stealing their stuff.

I mean, it's quite the list of sweeping changes. Maybe it'd work. I don't know how you'd work out who gets to go to lavaland and hunt monsters and who has to stay on the station and sort out petty crime. You can't do both with any kind of meaningful response time.
onleavedontatme
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by onleavedontatme » #175418

Nuke - the world ends and everyone dies if you dont stop them

Cult - the world ends and everyone dies if you dont stop them

Shadowling - the world ends and everyone dies if you dont stop them

Rev- Kill security the mode

Blob - the world ends but everyone is fine anyway if you dont stop them

Gang - IC the world doesnt end/everyone lives, but letting some guys steal the station still feels wrong

Don't think it's a flaw with security players wanting to win when the majority of game modes now require one side to be wiped out before the round ends, followed by a YOU WIN/YOU LOSE message.
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Oldman Robustin » #175429

Kor wrote:Security can't be converted.

Security gets yelled at for being validhunters in ooc if they win. They get yelled at for being bad if they lose. Nobody wants to have endless abuse hurled at them over a game (please, anyone reading this, think about this next time you're flipping out at someone in deadchat or ooc about not being perfect).

Buffing them wont change any of that.

Also I'm not sure how you can recognize that security is the counterbalance to antags in every mode but think it's a good idea to buff sec (and throw every mode off) instead of touching individual antags if they prove unfair for security to deal with.
I see it like this, there are two ways to make security more enjoyable for sec players. Improve their combat experience, or improve their non-combat experience.

Combat experience is stuff strictly dealing with them actively engaged in fighting the enemy. Non-combat can indirectly influence the combat experience, but is largely just about making security a less terrible experience.

There are very few combat things I would touch, one of the few was giving solocurity players access similar to HoS, but minus the HoS office, and an adrenal or emergency healing implant that would make up for them having to maintain order by themselves while 4+ traitors/lings/etc. are all salivating at the chance to pop him with an ebow and drag them into maint. Even that's not a high priority change for me. The only other I can think of was the jetpack suit storage alteration, which if you don't want to make an effort to deal with engineer/atmos suits then I will probably just open a new PR or add jetpacks to armory suit storage.

One other change I'd -love- to see even if it would realistically require more coordination than security can muster would be a "brace" option for riot shields that would require about ~2 seconds to engage. The riot shield user would 2-hand the shield and gain 100% block rate to range projectiles and melee attack coming from the 180 degrees in front of the user (180 degrees from the tile in front of the user basically, direct side-shot would still land). Anyone shooting/throwing from 180 degrees behind the user would have their projectiles pass over the user unless the user was directly targeted).

Non-combat leaves a lot more room for improvement:

1) One idea would be a "muster for battle" (RIP GvG) type alert for security, it would provide a large text + sound notification for all sec players (especially those tabbed out of boredom) to return to the brig. All armory doors would become accessible for regular security members.

2) Explicitly change our security policy on armory fortification. This wouldn't allow for "lol I put all the guns in a disabled disposal in warden's office", weapons would still have to stay in the armory until distributed (or until sec had IC knowledge that the armory could be vulnerable) but would allow for security to make whatever preparations they wanted to fortify the brig and armory. After code blue it's not even meta to want to drop some additional barriers, plus it might give sec or the warden something to do early-round while things are so slow you want to go braindead.

3) Put sliding glass doors in front of the 3 main gun racks. It's just a tiny improvement that gives the warden a chance to tell morphs, abductors, x4 babbies, etc. to fuck right off. Right now warden's job is basically "the guy who yells that all the guns are stolen, after the fact, because within 1 second of entering the armory, any intruder is now more heavily armed than the warden".

4) Let Sec PDA's (with restrictions similar to sechuds) set people to arrest (or take them off arrest) simply by entering their full name. It's a nightmare trying to manage records because unless you have the best AI or warden player in the universe, nobody is actually going to be working those records and it just ends up a confusing mismash of existing warrants that should have been removed and non-existant warrants that should have been added.

5) Move the damn warden medkit somewhere where 80% of sec can reach it, like perma. It also shouldnt be out of the question for security to get a couple advanced chems, whether its just a couple anti-toxin pills, or some patches. I would also argue that security deserves its own sleeper. Nothing is more frustrating than 90% of the station having easier access to medical supplies than the dept. that actually, desperately, needs them. Yet when sec tries to grab those supplies from medbay there is wide protest about shitcurity and retaliation against sec for "stealing" supplies.

6) Upon declaration of red-alert, security ID's would function similar to the HoS-tier of access, minus bridge, HoS office, command computers. They would have general access to science, medbay, engineering and perhaps all security would gain access to crematorium and kitchen. Security access is a tricky issue but I have no doubt that its currently too biased against security. The odds of having a cooperative HoP who will readily, quickly, and conveniently pass access to security members is less than 30% in my experience, yet without that HoP or an equally exceptional AI, security is all too often forced to stand outside science, medbay, cargo, and engineering while someone murders/converts/builds WMD's because security has jack-shit to deal with doors. There are other solutions to this issue too but breaching shells (like the nukeops have) and other devices get the typical "coderbus experience" when proposed. I think Steelpoint's HoS gun with a breaching setting was the single most contentious PR in Github history. Regardless of the solution, security having shit access and being unable to respond to a large majority of crises on the station is a huge part of why its generally just a shit experience.

7) A streamlined prison management system. The ability to teleport prisoners back would be a huge boon to security without affecting combat balance, but that ease-of-use rustles too many jimmies because god forbid you have to do something more complicated than lube the sec hall + maint if you want to prevent arrests from being processed. A compromise would be a prisoner-processor where the current brig checkpoint is. You drag in your criminal, they could be placed inside the processor like an abductor tube, the tube would prompt the officer to set a time, cell #, and crime description. The processor would give one final option whether to leave the prisoner with current clothing/headset or do a full strip into prisoner's garb. The processor would then teleport them to their designated cell and leave their gear on the teleporter pad/pod/whatever. The prisoner's gear will be placed in a cardboard box with their name on it, that gear can then be inspected, sent to the prisoner's locker via teleporter, or left at the checkpoint desk or elsewhere to be personally returned.

8) I could go on and on. There is a lot of merit to these changes, but I know that each and every one would get at least 4 shitposts within an hour about "I ded", "gid gud", and "security is supposed to be a hard job" memes from people who've literally never enabled sec roles.
Image
User avatar
TechnoAlchemist
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:39 am
Byond Username: TechnoAlchemist

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by TechnoAlchemist » #175460

Stashing the guns should be allowed if there is no warden and like 2 officers, leaving the armory sitting unattended is stupid and sitting outside the armory as a regular officer /just in case/ is boring.
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175473

Maybe instead of leaving shit for admins to deal with, we remove the armory?

Stupid metagame/powergame shit shouldn't be dealt with in ban appeals, it should be dealt with at a code level. Expecting people to not metagame is stupid, and having shit features and going 'oh lol the admins will just ban people who metagame' is the epitome of shit coding and shit game design.

I'm not saying we should remove the armory just because of stupid wardens who powergame, I'm saying that there's nothing useful in there that shouldn't be outside of it anyway. The space suits, for example, should be accessible to officers just like engineering hardsuits are accessible to engineers. This bilayer of HoS/Warden approval for officers to get gear when they can't be antags anymore and have loyalty implants is fucking retarded. It's one of the reasons I have no clue why the warden exists, and speaking as a person who used to play warden, officers have access to the permabrig/cells anyway so essentially you're an armory guard dog that sometimes catches traitors on the cameras and sets people's wanted status when they aren't in view (something officers should be able to do from their PDAs anyway???) which the AI usually does for you.

Not saying the warden doesn't have the coolest clothes out of all sec roles, but frankly he doesn't have much reason to exist, and neither does the armory. Sec is way more self sufficient than you think and I'd much rather have another sec officer slot than a warden slot.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
imblyings
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Ausops
Location: >using suit sensors

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by imblyings » #175483

there are no rules against fortifying the armoury, oldman

that was changed a while ago because every other job could more or less autism fort and antag-proof their department as much as their autism demanded
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
User avatar
Ikarrus
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Ikarrus » #175507

imblyings wrote:there are no rules against fortifying the armoury, oldman

that was changed a while ago because every other job could more or less autism fort and antag-proof their department as much as their autism demanded
Even atmos with plasma piping?
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?
User avatar
imblyings
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Ausops
Location: >using suit sensors

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by imblyings » #175515

I anticipated this which is why i said more or less.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
Malkevin

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Malkevin » #175519

paprika wrote:Maybe instead of leaving shit for admins to deal with, we remove the armory?

Stupid metagame/powergame shit shouldn't be dealt with in ban appeals, it should be dealt with at a code level. Expecting people to not metagame is stupid, and having shit features and going 'oh lol the admins will just ban people who metagame' is the epitome of shit coding and shit game design.

I'm not saying we should remove the armory just because of stupid wardens who powergame, I'm saying that there's nothing useful in there that shouldn't be outside of it anyway. The space suits, for example, should be accessible to officers just like engineering hardsuits are accessible to engineers. This bilayer of HoS/Warden approval for officers to get gear when they can't be antags anymore and have loyalty implants is fucking retarded. It's one of the reasons I have no clue why the warden exists, and speaking as a person who used to play warden, officers have access to the permabrig/cells anyway so essentially you're an armory guard dog that sometimes catches traitors on the cameras and sets people's wanted status when they aren't in view (something officers should be able to do from their PDAs anyway???) which the AI usually does for you.

Not saying the warden doesn't have the coolest clothes out of all sec roles, but frankly he doesn't have much reason to exist, and neither does the armory. Sec is way more self sufficient than you think and I'd much rather have another sec officer slot than a warden slot.
Wardens job is to:
-Guard the armory
-Keep the lasers away from the chuckle fucks until they're actually needed
-Make sure the chucklefucks aren't giving out completely crap sentences
-Make sure the chucklefucks aren't incorrectly processing prisoners by leaving them with a tool belt and yellow gloves
-Make sure officers aren't permaing everyone
-Look through the cameras to find trouble
-Keep an ear on general channel to then relay distress calls that a sec officer will probably miss because they're filtering out the green meme channel
-Generally be the HoS's right hand man so he can focus on the station instead of the brig.

Just because you don't know how to play warden well doesn't mean the role is useless, any perceived current useless is due to lack of sec players - hos can atleast rambo dredd around the station if he doesn't have a team to command.
User avatar
Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Oldman Robustin » #175520

>Open battering ram PR since it felt like one of the less controversial ideas that I posted before
>2 thumbs down within 60 seconds from GunHog and XXAlpha, no explanation provided of course

If only BawHoppen and Core0verload were online we could make it a perfect set.
Image
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175539

Malkevin wrote:
paprika wrote:Maybe instead of leaving shit for admins to deal with, we remove the armory?

Stupid metagame/powergame shit shouldn't be dealt with in ban appeals, it should be dealt with at a code level. Expecting people to not metagame is stupid, and having shit features and going 'oh lol the admins will just ban people who metagame' is the epitome of shit coding and shit game design.

I'm not saying we should remove the armory just because of stupid wardens who powergame, I'm saying that there's nothing useful in there that shouldn't be outside of it anyway. The space suits, for example, should be accessible to officers just like engineering hardsuits are accessible to engineers. This bilayer of HoS/Warden approval for officers to get gear when they can't be antags anymore and have loyalty implants is fucking retarded. It's one of the reasons I have no clue why the warden exists, and speaking as a person who used to play warden, officers have access to the permabrig/cells anyway so essentially you're an armory guard dog that sometimes catches traitors on the cameras and sets people's wanted status when they aren't in view (something officers should be able to do from their PDAs anyway???) which the AI usually does for you.

Not saying the warden doesn't have the coolest clothes out of all sec roles, but frankly he doesn't have much reason to exist, and neither does the armory. Sec is way more self sufficient than you think and I'd much rather have another sec officer slot than a warden slot.
Wardens job is to:
-Guard the armory
-Keep the lasers away from the chuckle fucks until they're actually needed
-Make sure the chucklefucks aren't giving out completely crap sentences
-Make sure the chucklefucks aren't incorrectly processing prisoners by leaving them with a tool belt and yellow gloves
-Make sure officers aren't permaing everyone
-Look through the cameras to find trouble
-Keep an ear on general channel to then relay distress calls that a sec officer will probably miss because they're filtering out the green meme channel
-Generally be the HoS's right hand man so he can focus on the station instead of the brig.

Just because you don't know how to play warden well doesn't mean the role is useless, any perceived current useless is due to lack of sec players - hos can atleast rambo dredd around the station if he doesn't have a team to command.
This is all such a fucking joke, malkevin. First of all no officer player respects the authority of the warden because he has none. Protecting the armory isn't a good job for a role, neither is babysitting bad sec officers. If sec officers are bad at brigging people they should just be banned from sec until they read a guide. It takes 1 round -- not even that, it takes one person breaking out of perma to teach an officer to take tools away from prisoners.

I like how you know the warden is a useless, shitty role because you attack me and insinuate I just don't know how to 'play it right', DESPERATELY struggling to find relevance for this donut stuffing piece of garbage role for people who want armory access and to be a douchebag but don't want the responsibilities of HoS.

Fucking pathetic.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
Incomptinence
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Incomptinence » #175555

Tider balance.

The people against the forces that aim to stop people treating others like shit, silicons/security, big big big surprise predominantly play like shit power game like fuck kill bait, valid hunt whatever they can get away with and project endlessly to put most of the blame for their atrocious behaviour on those who tried to stop them.

Sure there can be shit sec and silicons but there are many more shit vigilantes and grey tiders.
lumipharon
TGMC Administrator
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by lumipharon » #175569

Christ pap why are you still such a hostile shit?

It doesn't matter if you're a mlgpr0 sec officer or not - if shit is busy, it's far far easier to be able to drop off criminals at the brig and tell the warden their crimes, and let him process them. That means they are free to go back out into the station and do their shit.
It also means there is one guy who has track of all the prisoners, and why they're in the brig.

Also expecting all sec officers to be consistantly competent and not shit is genuinely laughable - this is ss13, when is that EVER the case? When the warden is processing everything then you only need 1 competent dude instead of 5 or whatever. If he isn't, you replace him.

And when shit is going down, having a dude back in the brig who can immediately jump on cameras and tell the rest of sec what is going on/warn them about what they're getting into/tell people where to go is hugely useful.
You can't always rely on the AI - it can be rogue, dead, have some meme lawset, or simply be trying to preserve human life and is being uncooperative.

If sec officers aren't doing as you ask in the brig (where you DO have authority), and are ignoring the hos, then he can kindly demote them at best, or you can simply undo any shitty actions to do with prisoners at worst, because unlike sec officers, you're the one staying at the brig, not them.

And for your suggestion of giving sec officer access to the armoury/giving them armoury shit by default(?), the current situation is this.

Antag that wants to break into the armoury needs to get through the airlocks/windows (most antags don't have emags also). The warden can laser nerds through the glass, while antag weapons can't. At best, they'll have a stolen taser and be able to disabler him. Mean while the warden can just block them with consoles and drop a flashbang on them if they don't have sec gear.

Either of your suggestions makes it significantly easier to loot that stuff.


And finally,
paprika wrote: Stupid metagame/powergame shit shouldn't be dealt with in ban appeals, it should be dealt with at a code level. Expecting people to not metagame is stupid, and having shit features and going 'oh lol the admins will just ban people who metagame' is the epitome of shit coding and shit game design.
Then yet immediately after you say this.
paprika wrote: If sec officers are bad at brigging people they should just be banned from sec until they read a guide.
So basically being a metagamer shouldn't involve bans but code changes, but being 'bad' should be dealt with via summary banning?
Ok.
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175587

I find it really amusing people would want to keep the warden role so that they don't have to do their jobs and process criminals despite the fact that if the warden was gone there would be more sec officer slots anyway so it wouldn't even matter.
lumipharon wrote: So basically being a metagamer shouldn't involve bans but code changes, but being 'bad' should be dealt with via summary banning?
Ok.
I see your reading comprehension still hasn't improved at all.

Being a metagamer =/= knowing how to play a job. Being a metagamer means knowing antags will attack the brig so stuffing everything down your pants so they can't have it when you leave the office is ridiculously shit. It doesn't mean you know how to play your job, simply that you have PLAYED THE JOB BEFORE AND KNOW THIS MIGHT HAPPEN SO I'D BETTER HIDE EVERYTHING!

What I mean by dealing with THIS kind of shit at a code level means either straight up removing the armory so there's no random shit to loot and officers are simply equipped better so they don't have to go through the warden, and the brig becomes less of a target for just free guns and cutting off sec's access to its guns, and more of a safe haven for sec in general because it's less likely to be attacked for the SWEET LOOT!

As for the stupid 'lol just demote sec officers as warden' instead of having admins deal with sec players -- it's much less of an IC issue when a sec officer treats someone like shit or does their job wrong because security is much closer to the fence where antagonists/griefers sit, so they have the potential to be actually OOC dickheads. Keeping the warden around to handle this ICly when a MUCH, MUCH better course of action would be to just eject these shitty players from the sec role with a jobban is a fucking stupid idea, unless of course you really want to wax your stun baton boner and 'demote' an officer as warden (seriously just play HoS).
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by paprika » #175591

CosmicScientist wrote:for how you play an autistic spess game about failing at life harder than all other spessmen and from across the in a place that doesn't even matter to you.
Is this even english?
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint
Location: The Armoury

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Steelpoint » #175598

I'm sorry I thought I was back in 2015 reading Paprika going insane all over again.
Image
User avatar
Super Aggro Crag
In Game PermaBanned
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:47 pm
Byond Username: Super Aggro Crag

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Super Aggro Crag » #175602

i love 2 win
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by oranges » #175609

malk doesn't even play lmao
User avatar
Cheridan
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
Byond Username: Cheridan

Re: Security's representation on Github.

Post by Cheridan » #175612

Steelpoint wrote:I'm sorry I thought I was back in 2015 reading Paprika going insane all over again.
How does it make you feel? Is it a warm nostalgia for days gone by, or is it more like... another year of Thanksgiving and seeing Great Great Aunt May talking to her teddy bear and trying to feed it mashed potatoes?
Image
/tg/station spriter, admin, and headcoder. Feel free to contact me via PM with questions, concerns, or requests.
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users