Catpeople - Aftermath

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Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262683

Its been a small while, we had a debate & the catpeople won. Fair enough i can accept that though i am opposed to catpeople, a little bit on after the original thread was closed after a bit of controversy i thought id raise the topic again for review now they've gotten themselves comfortable.

I make a cruicial arguement here -
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -283714542

Highlight points


> Catpeople are divisive within the human race, you are either a person with cat features or you are not (creating unnecessary tension) and has a tendency to confuse players and raise up cliques & counter movements.

> Directly to the above & below point, catpeople ARE NOT a race but both through action & words say they are so (literally weaboo's who went for extreme off station surgery demanding rights to live as a cat) and then claim or have incited upon them racial predjudice or hatred because they themselves identify as something abstract to humanity and then wrap themselves up in the cotton wool of detached fantasy 'memes' to justify irrational actions that meta-please other OOC players.
  • Just to point out this puts them in the same bracket as middle aged people who want to be infants again (wearing nappies, sitting in a crib gurgling) and drop everything behind them.
> Catpeople do not adequately RP (a lot of OOC player input goes into this but its not defined clearly guidelines on how to play, even so we do not tout huge RP) as mutants and more lend themselves to the interpretation of the player = furries, which is exactly what was trying to be avoided by still having predominately human features.
  • You are literally being racist to cats (in a term i like to call 'fur-face') by making fun & living out percieved cat traits. You call this absurd but that's the truth of it if we meta-think about how racism works.
The actual catpeople IC characters are bigots. (not representative of OOC players *disclaimer*) and as code offer nothing except a 'fun' cosmetic with the issues that follow that require multiple PR's to be written up like the treaty of Versailles to something that could have been so simple because people don't want to relinquish 'muh human company hierarchy & AI priviledges' to actively act out a wider internet meme.

- Feedback over

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by IcePacks » #262686

>catwoman attacks you
>attack them back
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Wyzack » #262687

>AI the genetrash are assaulting me please doorcrush them at your earliest convenience

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by D&B » #262688

My only issue with them is that there are AI's that still firmly believe they are human, and some admins too when it was said over and over they were not human at all.
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
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[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by captain sawrge » #262689

tl;dr im gonna fuck a catgirl one day
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262692

D&B wrote:My only issue with them is that there are AI's that still firmly believe they are human, and some admins too when it was said over and over they were not human at all.
Code reads them as human (because mutant in the same league sort of as genetics powers or wizards) but admin policy generally rules them out of hostile action but leaves them in a bit of a lurch where they do have the space to argue they are snowflakes.

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by D&B » #262693

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
D&B wrote:My only issue with them is that there are AI's that still firmly believe they are human, and some admins too when it was said over and over they were not human at all.
Code reads them as human (because mutant in the same league sort of as genetics powers or wizards) but admin policy generally rules them out of hostile action but leaves them in a bit of a lurch where they do have the space to argue they are snowflakes.
I'll dig for the exact headmin convo later but seriously stop that meme, they're non human
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?
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lying little shit with your bullshit stat
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by lzimann » #262695

D&B wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:
D&B wrote:My only issue with them is that there are AI's that still firmly believe they are human, and some admins too when it was said over and over they were not human at all.
Code reads them as human (because mutant in the same league sort of as genetics powers or wizards) but admin policy generally rules them out of hostile action but leaves them in a bit of a lurch where they do have the space to argue they are snowflakes.
I'll dig for the exact headmin convo later but seriously stop that meme, they're non human
They are indeed not human(but rule 1 will still apply, leaving them the same situation as lizards/other nonhuman races under asimov).
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262698

Scan them with a medical scanner = human, that's the basis of my arguement (there isn't a 'catperson' in the code and it was definitely said they were mutants)
  • Lets not forget this isn't shitcode talking, medical scanners are very reliable and can read off every race, even disguised abductors are read via their associated race when scanned, genetically super-powered races aren't very different so they categorise as a mutant and or deviant
Even angels (with the big 'ol wings) from mining loot are a different race as medical scanners can show you which is nessecary to have the wings pernamently fixed onto the player's body post-recloning.
lzimann wrote:They are indeed not human(but rule 1 will still apply, leaving them the same situation as lizards/other nonhuman races under asimov).
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Coderbus obviously has other ideas ( ^^^ ) and the headmins have transcribed their own meaning onto it that isn't consistent or transparent you mean?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by imblyings » #262699

Why did you make this thread
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by lzimann » #262701

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Coderbus obviously has other ideas ( ^^^ ) and the headmins have transcribed their own meaning onto it that isn't consistent or transparent you mean?
What are you even talking about code? If you want to pull that card, lizards would be considered a human aswell because the way the code works.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by kevinz000 » #262702

Why the hell are we having this discussion?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #262703

Can we just remove all non-human races? They're more trouble than they're worth.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262709

There is quite literal profiling via code which catpeople ignore and don't fall into any other percieved category besides humans so are quite literally mutants. In which case from your statement they would fall into a none hostile abstraction like initial wizard/hulk/changeling without the percieved evidence of them being hostile contrary to other laws being presented but you know these people are within that class of non applicable 'humans'
  • Quite literally if your AI 'rule' is true, the AI cannot racially profile without nessecary photographic evidence or record of said being a catperson. I had a little arguement about this before in that if AI is mislead into saving a catperson (contrary to a human in crisis at the same time) its not the OOC's fault but it has failed its directive to properly research its human and mutant-human crew which is time consuming and therefore failed its laws.
The AI shouldn't powergame *well defined rules exist* but it's gameplay style is usually one of careful guidance to not put humans in harm's way, borgs can medically scan catpeople and relay back to the AI the information but without invasively removing obstructing clothing which can be ordered off by the otherwise human with a law 2, catpeople can remain anonymous and 'play the system'.

Yes lizards are modelled on a human ckey (without digitgrade legs) but are likewise recognised as lizards in the games system (even posessing a different exclusive blood group, dialect and loot table *skin, meat etc*) so have gravitated away from humans other than the key similarities of being run by the game in the same fashion.

> Catpeople are more controversial than people realise and PR's like this Mutant parts are removed if you roll a head job, as opposed to being barred from these jobs #24592 are wasting coder time on crowd pleasing changes to stop people abusing the 'RP' when you could quite easily just give them simple separate profiling, pleasing both parties for & against rather than hiding in the crowd of human mutants.

Rest of the game issues i raise are partly cultural ones on how they don't fit into the game scheme because they try too hard to stand out and draw attention to themselves in a negative way when all they were meant to be was a small fun cosmetic difference.

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by kevinz000 » #262712

Please go.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by onleavedontatme » #262714

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Yes lizards are modelled on a human ckey
Another Fwoosh classic in the making
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by captain sawrge » #262719

OP do you have a learning disability
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Deitus » #262720

catpeople never have been and never will be considered human. why is this thread a thing other than just fwoosh attention whoring?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Wyzack » #262727

Multiple admins in this thread have told you in no uncertain terms that they are not human, and admins are the ones who enforce the rules so that is all that really matters. What the fuck else do you want
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Anonmare » #262730

Such a lust for cats... WHO?!?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by TribeOfBeavers » #262732

Someone should probably update the rules page on wiki to be a bit more clear, lizards are the only roundstart race mentioned as non-human right now.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Silicon_Po ... con_Policy
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Anonmare » #262734

I'd edit it right now if I had the permissions to do it.

Only living, non-mutant, non-hulk homo sapiens are Human as the AI understand them. If you're dead, you cease to be a Human as far as the AI is concerned. Catpeople are mutants and not Human as the AI understands the definition of Human, neither are skeletons or people who have changed species or ceased to qualify as Human (Corpses, skeletons and zombies are not Human).

AIs do not care about antagonist status, UNLESS the antagonist status is not Human but appears to be Human to all outward appearances (I.E. Changelings).

Please note, this assumes the AI is operating under Three Laws Asimov-basic - it does not take into account supplied laws, additional core laws, ion laws, antagonist laws etc.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262748

Which rehashes the previous point that because they cry out they are snowflakes, they draw negative attention to themselves and therefore we get silly rules that draw out bwoinks when 'murder all the cats' additional laws get written up. Effectively you're telling the AI which works off very rigid terms of using the in-game display to infer minimal context (no hands, no inspection of detail without relaying info between borgs) to kill humans with a particular mutant trait which is hard.
  • Game mechanical terms they are human, stop telling me alternative facts and push a PR to make them literally non-human (race = catperson) so i have nothing to argue about and as i've mentioned before it would appease all parties & solidify the admin ruling. Mutant doesn't work for transparency which is needed in a administrative (in AI terms) basis when you have the safety of the predominately archetypal human crew entrusted
Catpeople are non-human in policy only but not in the game-code, with easily the most concealable traits again leading to 'human to all outward appearances' and nessecity to research human crew to worm out the non-human timewasters & law violations. Asimov which is base is obviously the key example as other lawboards don't really discriminate and tend to file 'crew' as to station property (people & things)
  • You can blow holes in any AI arguement by saying 'totally assuming this is asimov' so pulling that card is pretty weak counter arguement if you're suggesting that Asimov isn't pretty much the default setting throughout the entire round that is largely untouched because it runs smooth.
Do coders headmins even play the game read the code before determining something is this rather than that before making amendments?

AI is actually detective based wouldn't you know it, people & AI assume catpeople are human because its too much work and time to literally profile every member of staff on highpop when you are needed to monitor the station's wellbeing as a whole (Ye olde det taking pictures through the desk camera station is the most basic form of AI). Virtually it makes being a ethical, aware and responsible AI on ASIMOV settings impossible.

> Catperson traitor and or hostile catperson - Can't do anything but call sec until they trip up and you photograph them without a helmet/suit visibly (assuming they deleted their computer console sec/medbay photos), same rules apply for killing lings which exhibit a human exterior.

> Unlike genetics powers which can be 'corrected' in the case of a human becoming non-human, catpeople are round-start and stuck like that largely.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by captain sawrge » #262750

captain sawrge wrote:OP do you have a learning disability
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by TribeOfBeavers » #262762

Why are you so concerned with how they're coded? Even if it was changed to an entirely separate race code-wise, the game would play exactly the same other than the health scanner thing, which is super minor.

Also, who cares if the AI occasionally mistakes them for being human? The ears and tail are entirely cosmetic, it's not like they're somehow getting an advantage over a standard human.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262766

Most borg modules have it and it goes through the exosuit (a lizard can hide in this way and be revealed by the health scanner, as previously mentioned abductors too) it makes processes such as holding back a job (referenced by that PR i linked) in command straightfoward without tiptoeing code & already exists for 'angel' race members which are also human mutants in a racially defined context. Such a small change has close to no shortfalls, catpeople also get something else that they want in which is recognition (given they are here to stay eitherway) and as previously mentioned it would solidify headmin ruling they are non-human.
  • Code is important because the AI only exists within a thin narrative of the game defined entirely by the code, someones whole perspective detached from the detail & events on the ground, its insensitive to withhold details and finding those details isn't easy as it is.
> If in doubt send a borg to scan/check it out.

Exactly, they claim to be a different race which is partially supported at least in theory by admin ruling them non-human but they are still typically human in all respects = easymode way to scam the system in being edgy & different but also the most privileged based entirely on being human. Its a identical to adding a vulpkin alternative racial skin then saying its a human because its just a cosmetic even though its clearly not human, but under all those layers it can't be discerned it is anything else other than human.

In itself it has no substance other than memes for cosmetic fluff that can get you killed by the AI, under circumstances of being judged as a feature it wouldn't have made the grade as a legitimate (such as when they were taking only *real detailed* race suggestions into github somehow the cats crawled in) race on its own. So you have to ask whether the reasons to making its own race defrauds its conception & current implementation.
TribeOfBeavers wrote:

Also, who cares if the AI occasionally mistakes them for being human? The ears and tail are entirely cosmetic, it's not like they're somehow getting an advantage over a standard human.
  • Quite literally if your AI 'rule' is true, the AI cannot racially profile without nessecary photographic evidence or record of said being a catperson. I had a little arguement about this before in that if AI is mislead into saving a catperson (contrary to a human in crisis at the same time) its not the OOC's fault but it has failed its directive to properly research its human and mutant-human crew which is time consuming and therefore failed its laws.
They aren't human, you would be pissed if a AI saved a lizard and not you in a railcart scenario not least to say as a conscious decision the AI can't save the lizard as human protection is #1 priority. As i mention in the quote its the AI's RESPONSIBILITY to keep ontop of this using in-game data, a simple race check would help EVER so much for a lot of situations. Its also unless said explicitly otherwise non consensual to be medically scanned by a borg so players can get around it if they really tried though it might arise suspicion.

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by oranges » #262807

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

The type paths of species in the code are beginning to have less and less relevance as the actual end state any mob ends up as, do not cite their type path in code or how they are implemented as an argument against server policy ever again.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262818

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oranges wrote:I've said this before and I'll say it again.
- Citation needed, this is literally the first time i can recollect mentioning anything like this and you offering this response so you're obviously punishing myself for something somebody else did in that crazy way people hit their significant other for something they did in a dream

Do you need a lie down oranges?

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #262833

What the fuck another salt shed thread? Musical interlude.

[youtube]9HOhNNbtf2w[/youtube]

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by PKPenguin321 » #262930

when will you learn
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by IcePacks » #262935

captain sawrge wrote:
captain sawrge wrote:OP do you have a learning disability
i do
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by BeeSting12 » #262937

is there a requirement for you to make like one autistic thread every year?
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by oranges » #262940

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Image
oranges wrote:I've said this before and I'll say it again.
- Citation needed, this is literally the first time i can recollect mentioning anything like this and you offering this response so you're obviously punishing myself for something somebody else did in that crazy way people hit their significant other for something they did in a dream

Do you need a lie down oranges?
Not directly said to you obviously and I haven't even begun to punish you.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Xhagi » #262980

catpeople aren't human

also this thread is dumb

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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by cedarbridge » #262993

Your waifu isn't human. Also, most catgirls either intentionally or unintentionally come off as naive and kinda retarded anyway so I suppose that fits.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Slignerd » #262995

Does anyone actually bother to read Fwoosh's posts?
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by PKPenguin321 » #262997

Sligneris wrote:Does anyone actually bother to read Fwoosh's posts?
i actually never have bothered to finish one entirely ever since the moonlighting thread
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Screemonster » #263002

oranges wrote:I've said this before and I'll say it again.

The type paths of species in the code are beginning to have less and less relevance as the actual end state any mob ends up as, do not cite their type path in code or how they are implemented as an argument against server policy ever again.
Pretty much, in baycode even a fucking tajaran is /mob/living/carbon/human if you vv it.

The technical methods by which something is applied in code has no bearing whatsoever in policy.

Code allows players, as a nonantagonist asimov engiborg, to welderbomb a room full of humans for no other reason than it's possible. Policy does not. That whole "separation is absolute" thing cuts both ways.
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FantasticFwoosh
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 11:25 pm
Byond Username: FantasticFwoosh

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #263048

I see the arguement screemonster but you could literally just change it to mob/living/carbon/player to same effect, something oranges is having a nuclear hissy-fit about instead of literally just dismissing it professionally and saying 'lol k' since its a fluid problem that can be altered if required.

Its about context, i didn't suggest changing the base. The only change along those lines would be adding a new DM to speciestypes, so what kind of assblasted response was that Oranges? Im divising and thinking of a PR way to make catpeople REAL mutants by mutant body part checks, then i can water down angels to exist within the humans.dm file.

Catpeople are context not substance, just a expression of a coderbus/forum meme.

Spoiler:
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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by bandit » #263161

nyaa :3c
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

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Slignerd
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:27 pm
Byond Username: Slignerd
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Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Slignerd » #263164

Nyaa~!
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
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TehSteveo
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:31 am
Byond Username: TehSteveo
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by TehSteveo » #263165

Democracy decided for :3c
Freedom
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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by bandit » #263166

[youtube]GQYY5Qu1Ooc[/youtube]
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
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DemonFiren
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
Byond Username: DemonFiren

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by DemonFiren » #263182

Genetrash never should have been created in the first place.
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non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
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Screemonster
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
Byond Username: Scree

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Screemonster » #263183

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Slignerd
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Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:27 pm
Byond Username: Slignerd
Github Username: Slignerd

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Slignerd » #263184

DemonFiren wrote:Genetrash never should have been created in the first place.
> Lizard
> Complaining about catgirls
It would appear that I'm a high RP weeb who hates roleplay and anime.
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Screemonster
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
Byond Username: Scree

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Screemonster » #263185

Sligneris wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:Genetrash never should have been created in the first place.
> Lizard
> Complaining about catgirls
Well, at least mutantraces are mutually exclusive

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Jacough
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Jacough

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by Jacough » #263194

Sligneris wrote:Does anyone actually bother to read Fwoosh's posts?
Nah. At this point making fun of him for being mentally disabled is getting kind of stale. I think it's time to find a different retard to put in the spotlight.
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bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by bandit » #263198

Screemonster wrote:Well, at least mutantraces are mutually exclusive
says someone who has never worn kitty ears as lizard
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
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DemonFiren
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
Byond Username: DemonFiren

Re: Catpeople - Aftermath

Post by DemonFiren » #263251

if i see a lizard wearing cat ears i automatically assume race traitor
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non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
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