/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Off topic from the "this will kill /tg/station", I'm stuck in a car for a few hours and I'm brainstorming stuff for the hypothetical map - specifically monsters that have gameplay impacts beyond "walks up to the station and kills you dead"

Like, what if there's a monster that's attracted specifically to energy/light? if they picked up the scent they'd track down the source, so say you're running from a traitor and notice a pack of them outside. The antag has a dual esword, so you run out and the moron follows you. They see what he's got and swarm him, attacking him until he drops it - then they snatch it and bring it back to their lair. They don't care if you live or die (unless you aggro them by attacking first maybe?) and just want that sweet sweet energy. You can track them down and get it back, maybe they'd be an annoyance all round, stealing light sources/whatever

Or what about a hunter mod that prowls in a pack of one or two - if it sees a crew member it goes in for the attack, but it uses a nonlethal method (maybe a small amount of a chemical per hit that makes you pass out if it hits a threshold? Didn't think about this too hard, maybe would be better if it kept you awakw so you could scream on the radio). Once you're down, it grabs you and begins slowly retreating to its hive, then when it's there it pulls a xenomorph and puts you in some organic bindings. The idea is if you leave your friend to die (because if you go outside alone you're a dumbass) the materials of the binding slowly deal damage until you turn into a nice organic nutrient paste for the hive. You can find where they took them by examining vegetation/looking for tracks (why not make this go for anything?) but the tracks fade over time

EDIT: They could also go after other wildlife on the planet - maybe if you go into the lair and find a monster trapped you could rescue it, changing it's behaviour so that it becomes your friend where it does its own thing, but will generally follow you and attack anyone who attacks you?

Like, I'm not trying to ignore the issues people have, but there's been enough arguing about it, I figured I'd post something less depressing

I think Steelpoint is right here, in that we need more than one station goal to progress towards, as sooner or later someone will create the perfect "get off the planet" guide. Unless you want to close the codebase, that is.

Also, I think I once heard some coder saying that increasing map size would be possible, but (something).

Not a bad idea

Maybe have one escape type be "find the pieces to finish the gateway" scattered around the map and one based more on hunkering down and cranking out the pieces for a shuttle

You could have RnD work on stuff for the egines like warp drives/etc.and engineering builds the framework, and everyone else focuses on not dying by fauna

I can't think of anything else right now but I think you could come up with more ways to finish the round than those

EDIT: here's another - crew has to build a transmitter and send out a signal to centcomm. Could combine elements of the above, having the crew search for parts and making their own, then maybe a last stand against a swarm of mobs attracted to the signal once it goes out? Justified by "it's searching for centcomm's position" or some shit like that

EDIT AGAIN: I think the way to approach this is to create systems that allow for new things to happen. Using my last post as an example, those monsters go beyond just mindless carp reskins, they have their own basic (on paper, anyways, I have some idea of how their AI could work but I've never worked with AI before) "goals" they fulfill which can be exploited by players

The way to pitch features isn't "what does this thing do that's interesting", it's "what does this thing do that lets players be interesting". Any good sandbox game uses an approach like this, where you design systems that function without player input, but react in a way that makes sense when a human being inevitably throws a wrench into it

This has nothing to do with the rest of the post and some of you will say "no duh' but it's something I wanted to put in words anyways

Iatots wrote:If you set up a last stand scenario from the get-go, any traitors that need to survive to the end would have to not commit any kind of grand sabotage to maximise their greentext potential. Sure, murder one guy or steal an item, but blow up science? the engine? not a Chance. Every traitor will just stealth the whole round until there is just too many goliaths and not enough bullets. "Backstab at the critical moment?" More like snooze-fest for the first 40 minutes and then everything explodes as soon as the gateway kicks to life.

The idea is that the monsters are bad for the station, not bad for the station's survival. Not resisting the monsters effectively will mean the power's off, not "everyone dies". Maybe if they're completely unresisted, but at that point you have to just congratulate a traitor on a good job sabotaging.

Luke Cox wrote:God forbid the area containing the gateway becomes somehow uninhabitable, in which case it's gg no re for the crew.

God forbid the escape shuttle becomes somehow uninhabitable, in which case gg no re for the crew.

Luke Cox wrote:That's because you're supposed to stay on the station where everything is happening, silly. Not to mention that space is a major strategic element in core SS13 (spacing people, exposing areas to space, etc.)

Lava is better at disposing of bodies than space. Exposing areas to space can be replaced by exposing areas to the hostile wildlife or hostile flora that would grow into the open area. It's not the same but it's interesting too. This is kind of a poor argument because this thread exists literally to brainstorm solutions to these kinds of issues.

I think that in theory if the crew do not, or are unable, to combat the threat of the encroaching monsters that will not necessarily mean antagonists will suddenly lose.

The average crew member would be ill equipped to deal with a large contingent of monsters, and I can assume that security's stockpile of weaponry will be limited. The average traitor however is very well equipped to deal with monsters and other hostile NPCs.

So while over half the crew may be dead, and the station depowered, the traitors will survive.

-------------------------

On that note, I think that station bound antagonists should have some method of getting off the station or at least surviving the round.

Perhaps Traitors can buy a free 'escape ship' beacon that will summon a evacuation ship to extract them, or maybe they can buy a tool kit that can repair one of the ships broken escape pods for their own personal use.

(On that note, escape pods should be reworked so you can't stuff thirty people inside a two tile pod, maybe make them like goon's pods and they are a single man pod)

Jazaen wrote:I think Steelpoint is right here, in that we need more than one station goal to progress towards, as sooner or later someone will create the perfect "get off the planet" guide.

I have a few ideas for alternate goals (and I listed one in the OP, killing the source of the bad guys) but I don't want to promise insane feature creep before the skeleton of this is even off the ground. In the far future it'd be very possible to do randomized planet surfaces, different kinds of threats (evil bugs instead of evil demons, uncontrolled plant growth, whatever), different ways to escape (construct a communications tower and call the escape shuttle) and so on and so forth.

Luke Cox wrote:muh lore

Rev is already brainwashing, it doesn't have to particularly make sense. Times of great stress are exactly the kinds that encourage mutiny and revolt though. "These dumb assholes crashed our ship and stranded us here and now we're going to be eaten, fuck that why should we follow them?"

>nuke

Already makes absolutely 0 sense on SS13 because the syndicate has access to singularity beacons, and could easily destroy the entire station just by setting one up and cutting a single wire.

I don't think a syndicate team landing and finishing the job to make sure nobody escapes makes any less sense than the current one.

Iatots wrote:@everyone arguing PVE won't smother the game

What could traitors do?
What will traitors do?

I don't understand why you think traitors having to balance their wanton murder with a desire to actually escape would be a bad thing. Do you find consequence free murderboners enjoyable?

where the traitors are the protagonists and the crew eats shit.

This is already our game. I could fail to make it better, but I wouldn't be introducing a new problem.

CosmicScientist wrote:What happened to FTLStation13/Orion Trail13?

Someone else is already doing that, and it'd be a way bigger departure from SS13. The core gameplay would have to be entirely redone.

Sorry if I'm missing questions it's hard to keep up with this thread.

it really is, i keep writing extremely large replies then giving up when there's 14 new posts

Frankly i think traitors not instantly sabotaging the engine every round would be fucking great. Balacing murderboners against escape is a good thing. Doesn't mean we won't get murderbone traitors but it will affect the narrative of the round greatly if a good portion of engineering is dead and they can't get enough power to the cloners.

Bombadil wrote:Frankly i think traitors not instantly sabotaging the engine every round would be fucking great. Balacing murderboners against escape is a good thing. Doesn't mean we won't get murderbone traitors but it will affect the narrative of the round greatly if a good portion of engineering is dead and they can't get enough power to the cloners.

We've already achieved this. Singulooses are fairly rare now, and we're in the middle of reworking power so that it becomes more intensive and engineering has to prioritize departments.

I'll do one long write-up of why this is a terrible idea that shouldn't be pursued later, as I don't have nearly as much time today as I did yesterday. I slept on it, and I still think this is a misguided attempt to solve non-problems. Nobody wants to go through 6 pages of arguing and shitposts, so I'll edit my first post on this thread with my summary for the convenience/sanity of readers.

I'm going to make a subforum for this since I think there are to many different topics contained in the OP to make for a readable thread.

You're still operating under the massive assumption that the maintainers and MSO are even going to go for this. I'm telling you Kor, make a fork. You can do literally anything you want then. It's better for you too.

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -286552903

So far I've only gotten yes, or "yes but I'd like to tweak this" in IRC from maintainers and the host, and the list of people who want to actively help is larger than any direct collaboration #coderbus has seen before, and still growing.

Please assuage my fears at least a little bit by answering this: do you at least understand why some people are opposed to this? Do you intend to address the flaws that people have pointed out?

I am fully aware that there are design issues to be ironed out and that some number of people will complain and possibly even quit over this.

I'd like to clarify that I am actually really excited for this and really love the idea, I'm just worried it will come off as forced and overwrite too much of what we have. I hope the execution goes as smoothly as you see it in your head, Kor.

I'm not against the idea of a station on a planet, but the biggest mistake by far is attempting to change the base dynamic of the game. Giving the entire crew a single objective they must complete to end the round is a terrible, terrible idea. PvE mobs around the station is fine and could even make for interesting dynamics, but making them attack the station in waves will turn them into the major antag every round. If you scale back some of the more radical ideas there's no reason this can't co-exist with the other maps.

Luke Cox wrote:tl;dr

Haevacht wrote:Petition to ban luke "literally cannot stop sucking" cox from this thread, sign here: x______

Kor hit me up with a list of onmob sprites n shit.

Yeah we get it shitcurity players are illiterate

I like the idea of a station/crashed landing map but I'm not keen on a corruption/lavaland tendril motif idea. I feel like it's always going to limit what the players can do because if they don't actually try they're going to lose. Which is fine itself, but there's going to be a disconnect between players who like to autism fort out and those who power game to fuck. Just making a station based a on crashed landing/abandoned outpost sounds rad enough and getting that going should be your starting point. Later you can have the idea of how they can escape, if even at all.

This is a big project and suggestion so we may like to have a absolute 100% concrete idea on the direction of everything.

Durkel wrote:I like the idea of a station/crashed landing map but I'm not keen on a corruption/lavaland tendril motif idea. I feel like it's always going to limit what the players can do because if they don't actually try they're going to lose. Which is fine itself, but there's going to be a disconnect between players who like to autism fort out and those who power game to fuck. Just making a station based a on crashed landing/abandoned outpost sounds rad enough and getting that going should be your starting point. Later you can have the idea of how they can escape, if even at all.

This is a big project and suggestion so we may like to have a absolute 100% concrete idea on the direction of everything.

If this has to happen, this is the most sane way to do it. Start off with a new map set on a planet first. Personally I still think there are going to be issues, but if Kor is willing to ditch the gateway endgame and mob waves, I'll have way fewer gripes about this. If Kor insists on removing the shuttle, he can mess with that in another PR. If it defies all reason and manages to work, we can adapt it to Box/Meta/Delta

kor was talking about the mobs/corruption being subject to a lot of tweaking, so it could range from normal random event threat levels, to levels that actually require crew cooperation and active participation

hashing out the sweet spot will be part of the whole design and implementation process, it's not really a design fault

If PvE mobs exist, they absolutely cannot actively attack the station. Their role should be that of a hazard comparable to space outside of the station. Maybe the planet could have a BZ atmosphere too. That would be fun.

I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

imblyings wrote:kor was talking about the mobs/corruption being subject to a lot of tweaking, so it could range from normal random event threat levels, to levels that actually require crew cooperation and active participation

hashing out the sweet spot will be part of the whole design and implementation process, it's not really a design fault

different game modes would have different expansion, which would allow for meta but you have to walk right up to the mist for it so i dunno

Denial

Luke Cox wrote:If this is meant to be a total overhaul, the playerbase will never accept it.

Anger

Luke Cox wrote: I'm going to be blunt: I am seriously starting to doubt Kor's motivations behind this. It sounds like he doesn't like doing his job dealing with player conflict, so he just wants to rip it out. Plus I think lavaland being successful has completely gone to his head.

Bargaining

Luke Cox wrote:I'm not against the idea of a station on a planet, but ... If you scale back some of the more radical ideas there's no reason this can't co-exist with the other maps.

Soon comes grief and finally acceptance.

For a serious answer, Ausops explained it well already.

Luke Cox wrote:I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

You keep saying this opinion without backing it up with any justification, which is which is why it's oh so easy to ignore you.

MisterPerson wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:I maintain everything I've said about the gateway though. There just isn't any scenario in which it works.

You keep saying this opinion without backing it up with any justification, which is which is why it's oh so easy to ignore you.

I've said it a billion times, but here we go again:

The reason why the gateway won't work is because it changes the fundamental progression of the round. Currently, SS13 acts as a sandbox game, with each player free to pursue what they find interesting. People are allowed to their own thing, and make their own fun. By introducing a mandatory goal that the crew must complete to end the round, everyone's focus is shifted to the single task of activating the gateway. The sandbox elements are thrown out in favor of a linear progression. There is also the issue of punishing antags for being antags, since they can't leave and win unless the gateway is activated. As someone else pointed out, it'll either be all out chaos straight away or 40 minutes of nothing followed by a grief fest at the gateway. Traitors greentexting asap and doing nothing for the rest of the round is already a problem, and this isn't going help it. There's also the issue of the gateway itself being rendered unreachable. The shuttle is the target of frequent attacks, but pods are a backup. No such case with the gateway.


Station on a planet with the typical progression is fine. Changing the core progression of the game is a terrible idea.

We do need a specialized place to discuss more effectively, mostly because you can't really expect people to keep up with the discussion on half a dozen different media.
I only know space will be used for *something* because of 1 short post on the issue tracker.

A high stakes finale is a feature, not a defect. If long-term area denial becomes OP, it can be nerfed. But how much long term area denial really exists anyway? Hot gas from a plasma fire? That's really about it. If bombs wind up being unfun, they can be nerfed too. But you can bomb the escape shuttle right now and achieve basically the same result, so I don't see how "antags can antagonize everyone" is a legitimate argument.

You're claiming progression is bad without really explaining why it's so badwrong. The current design is completely open-ended, but it's also extremely boring and creates issues designing interesting rounds because there's quite literally no structure or purpose to them at all. There's quite literally nothing for the crew to do besides hunt antags. Every job (besides mining) is completely meaningless besides fighting antags directly or being a prelude to getting better tools to fight antags.

Kor's design of the escape gateway is a placeholder anyway, so there's little to comment on to begin with. There's some designs I'd be for and many I'd be against, but it's impossible to know without seeing a more complete proposal. Antags being boring is a potential issue too, but again, it's something that could be mitigated in the design.

At the end of it all this just more of a proof of concept.

Until we start to see a far more indepth and concrete design document, and in game implementations, then all we're doing is making suggestions and then rebuffing those suggestions, suggestions which may never even be included in a final produce of 'Planet Station 13'.

Luke Cox wrote:The sandbox elements are thrown out

No they're not

Currently, SS13 acts as a sandbox game, with each player free to pursue what they find interesting

No it doesn't. You have access to a handful of rooms on the map and a pretty limited number of actions you can do without admins banning you, security arresting you, or admins banning you when you don't let security arrest you.

Or the shuttle has been called in 20 minutes, or the antag has forcibly recruited you (again, with the threat of a ban to back up your compliance), or security has forcibly recruited you, or security has taken all your stuff to fight the antags and so on and so forth.

It has some open ended elements to it but it is far from a sandbox game.

Traitors greentexting asap and doing nothing for the rest of the round is already a problem, and this isn't going help it

It will help it though. If antags are being dull as hell I can go exploring or join a team to go burn down corruption nests or go build a hut in the woods or rig a disposal system to shoot glass at monsters trying to cross the bridge or build a line of turrets or raise an army of sentient carp to go to war against the monsters and so on and so forth.

If anything the game will become more sandbox because there will be some practical goals you can use all your creativity and toys on without getting banned for it.

Luke your problem here is that you are taking a HEAVILY idealized version of SS13 that does not really exist and comparing it to this horrible narrow opinion you have of Kor's idea that you for whatever fucking reason seem to think everyone should take as the gospel truth even though it is just some shitty conjecture on your part and then using this comparison as undeniable evidence that this thing you don't like will not work

Instead of arguing/trolling Luke for another six pages, why don't we get some some ideas down instead?

What type of planet will it be? Jungle,arctic,desert,wasteland,or just a shitload of alien ruins?

How will mining be handled? Will they stay on the z-level or perhaps go underground via a lift?

A large part of survival is securing a food and water supply, any chance we can see a rework of those systems and perhaps include something like a need to purify water?

You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

I think it was mentioned some place that lavaland would remain largely as it is but as a subterranean level rather than a nearby planet

Luke is just worried he can't get his delicious valids feel as good when they aren't players don't worry.

Durkel wrote:Instead of arguing/trolling Luke for another six pages, why don't we get some some ideas down instead?

What type of planet will it be? Jungle,arctic,desert,wasteland,or just a shitload of alien ruins?

How will mining be handled? Will they stay on the z-level or perhaps go underground via a lift?

A large part of survival is securing a food and water supply, any chance we can see a rework of those systems and perhaps include something like a need to purify water?

You said that the gateway would be the only way off, but have you thought of doing something like building a comms array, having the rescue shuttle get blown the fuck out by whatever made the crew crash, the crew disabling it, and calling again? Kind of like subnautica. You could have the second crash site be used as a trigger to really start spreading your corruption, allowing the crew to just fuck about until then.

I've already answered most of these questions but I guess it's understandable they got missed because this thread is a mess.

1) Ausops started spriting a jungle, so I guess it's a jungle

2) Mining will be on lavaland, which will be underneath the station/jungle. Was thinking of using a shuttle (without transit) as an elevator as well for miners, and then maybe ladders elsewhere to get into "maint" below the station.

3) It wasn't on my to do list, but maybe one day.

4) I actually listed building a comms array from salvaging wreckage as an example of an alternate way off. Ideally there'd be several eventually, but I don't want to promise too much work at once.

Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

imblyings wrote:

Untitled.png

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

Looks good lad,Though I'm disappointed I'm not going to get watch spacemen fall through thin ice and freeze to death.

imblyings wrote:

Untitled.png

water tile isn't final they're also about to kill me hel

this is exactly what I was picturing in my head when I was thinking of ideas holy shit

except the player was a human and not a lizard

WHY would you send precious humans out into the jungle when you can send in a sacrificial ligger first instead???

Because of the famous "Finds cache of lost technology, defeats it's masters" cliche.

kevinz000 wrote:Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

You'll die of oxyloss and maybe being poisoned but probably not pressure

imblyings wrote:WHY would you send precious humans out into the jungle when you can send in a sacrificial ligger first instead???

Nah they just send in a fresh batch of emu mutants with tracking implants

Kor wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:Kor just gonna ask this in public instead of coderbus, what will change as to atmospherics? Right now if you have a breach you die of cold and pressure loss, what about the new planetary map?

You'll die of oxyloss and maybe being poisoned but probably not pressure

I mean, if the multi-level ruins get implemented, you could make a point for them being hermetically sealed locations with way higher pressure, to limit time groundmens (great, now I have to switch from spessmens) can spend inside, and actually making robotics useful for exploration, left by yet another ancient civilization. That, and there is always some potential for this being a slow and painful execution method.

I forgot to mention that I'd be down to contribute mapping as well, but there's like 300 mappers already on board so if you don't need anymore then I guess you don't need anymore

We will likely need many mappers

As I told luke, I don't agree with this but they already look like they are actually doing it. GG, that's it.